- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Kathi,
Do you acknowledge the fact that any time Jehovah said He was Jehovah, the Hebrew word “aniy” (I am) preceded His name?
Do you acknowledge that Jesus never said “I am I AM”?
Then could you show me where Jehovah ever claimed to be Jehovah WITHOUT saying “I am I AM”?
Could you show me where Jesus ever DID say “I am I AM”?
If you can do neither of these things, then your refusal to acknowledge this truth, just because “you don't want to”, tells a lot about who you are, and whose truth you're really after.
Mike,
Is 43:11
Acts 26:15 Jesus says “I am Jesus” which means “I am Yahweh saves” which, when you substitute “Yahweh” with “I Am” you get “I am I Am saves”
What is your point, Mike? If Yahweh never said “I am Yahweh” would that mean He couldn't be Yahweh?Yes Kathi,
That IS my point. We wouldn't know that Jehovah WAS Jehovah, unless someone said “He is Jehovah”. Or unless He said, “I am Jehovah”.
If I said, “The Great Pretender, and I love you”, what would you make of it?
Compare to, “I am The Great Pretender, and I love you”. Now it makes sense, (sort of
).Here's a scriptural one:
“Jehovah, and I will drive out the nations before you.”Compare:
“I am Jehovah, and I will drive out the nations before you.”Which one makes sense, Kathi?
The bottom line is that Jesus NEVER said, “I am I AM”. Jehovah said “I am I AM” each and every time He identified Himself AS Jehovah.
Are you hip, now?
Kathi,
Did Jehovah say “I am I AM” every time He claimed to BE YHWH? YES or NO?
Did Jesus EVER say “I am I AM”? YES or NO?
(Why do you hide, Kathi? This question is not going away until you DIRECTLY address it.)
Mike,
Quote Did Jehovah say “I am I AM” every time He claimed to BE YHWH? YES or NO?
No. He said His proper name YHVH after He said “I am…” Look at the Hebrew.Quote Did Jesus EVER say “I am I AM”? YES or NO?
No, unless you explore the meaning of the name Yeshua or YHVH and substitute the proper name used with the meaning of the proper name.Quote (Why do you hide, Kathi? This question is not going away until you DIRECTLY address it.)
Why do you assume that I am hiding…presumption leads to your own confusion. I told you why I don't have as much time here…remember? Do I need to send you my schedule of events Also, I don't keep track of every possible place you can ask me the next question. PM me if I have missed an opportunity to respond to you, ok…don't presume things unless you want to show a lack of discernment on your part. Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,18:40) Mike, Quote Did Jehovah say “I am I AM” every time He claimed to BE YHWH? YES or NO?
No. He said His proper name YHVH after He said “I am…” Look at the Hebrew.
And isn't it YOU who thinks this proper name means “I AM”? So, knowing that YOU think “YHWH” means “I AM”, we also know that YOU admit that Jehovah said the Hebrew word for “I am” BEFORE saying His proper name, and therefore He said “I am I AM”, according to YOUR definition of “YHWH”, right? YES or NO?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2011,18:40) Quote Did Jesus EVER say “I am I AM”? YES or NO?
No, unless you explore the meaning of the name Yeshua or YHVH and substitute the proper name used with the meaning of the proper name.“NO” is the correct answer, Kathi. Jesus NEVER said “I am I AM”, and therefore NEVER claimed to BE YHWH.
I don't even understand the rest of what you posted, but I'm quite sure it has no bearing on the correct answers to these two very simple questions.
We now agree on these two things:
1. Anytime Jehovah claimed to BE Jehvoah, He said “I am I AM”.
2. Jesus NEVER said the words “I am I AM”.
Therefore, the only LOGICAL and SCRIPTURAL conclusion that can be drawn from these FACTS is that Jesus was NOT claiming to actually BE Jehovah in John 8:58, nor in any other scripture.
I will not expect to see you ever claiming that he did.
Mike,
I don't agree with your point.Jehovah never directly said “I am I AM.” Do you mean to ask if Jehovah means “I AM” then the answer is that YHVH has the root word hayah which is translated as 'I am.' The point is that scripture tells us that Jehovah always existed.
Does scripture tell us that Jesus is also called Jehovah, yes. Therefore the point is that Jesus is also identified as always existent.
You are missing the point by concentrating so much on word order. You are missing the 'spirit' because of the 'letter.'
Jesus identified Himself as 'I AM” and others will too, although they will be doing so deceptively…He wasn't deceptive.
Mark 13:6
Many will come in my name and say, 'I AM,' and they will deceive many people.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,09:46) Jehovah never directly said “I am I AM.”
Kathi, you are starting to irritate me with these games.Do you or do you not believe “YHWH” means “I AM”?
You have already argued vehemently that “YHWH” DOES mean “I AM”.
So, that in mind, any time Jehovah actually claimed to BE Jehovah, He said in Hebrew, “aniy yhwh”, which means “I am I AM”, according to YOUR translation of “YHWH”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,09:46) Does scripture tell us that Jesus is also called Jehovah, yes.
NEVER! Show me where Jesus is called “YHWH”.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,09:46) Jesus identified Himself as 'I AM”
NEVER! And THAT is my whole point, Kathi. Yes, Jesus on MANY occasions said the pronoun/verb combination “I am”. Just as almost every person in existence has said those words many times in their lives. But to IDENTIFY himself AS “I AM”, Jesus would have to say “I am I AM”, like his Father and God did.Did Jesus EVER say the words “I am I AM”? You've already answered “NO”.
So just to recap:
Jehovah ALWAYS said “I am I AM” any time he claimed to BE Jehovah.
Jesus NEVER said the words “I am I AM”.
Therefore, Jesus NEVER claimed to BE Jehovah………….EVER.
End of story. Twist as many words as you want to, Kathi. But now at least I KNOW that YOU KNOW the truth of the matter.
So the next time you quote John 8:58 as “proof” that Jesus is God Almighty, I'll know that you are putting your own wishes above what you KNOW to be the scriptural truth of the matter.
Mike,
I have shown you several times where scripture refers to the Son as Jehovah…the Son is the husband of Zion who is Jehovah. Jacob wrestles with Jehovah face to face. Abraham talks face to face with Jehovah who will judge the whole earth, Jehovah sent fire and brimstone from the Jehovah in heaven, Jesus is called ''Jehovah our righteousness,” John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way of Jehovah, God calls Him Jehovah who laid the foundation of the earth, etc. There, not to mention the I AM's.You ask me to show you where Jesus said “I am I AM” in the NT…where does the Father say this in the NT? Where does the Son say that about the Father in the NT? You see, just because it is not worded according to your 'letter' that doesn't mean it is not so.
The I AM is not just a pronoun/verb commonly used, it can be commonly used but show me where it is not used as an answer or without a direct object when applied truthfully to anyone else. Can you do that? If you can't then that proves that the I AM that Jesus used which doesn't have a direct object after it, is unique and not just an ordinary pronoun/verb.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2011,20:48) Mike,
I have shown you several times where scripture refers to the Son as Jehovah…the Son is the husband of Zion who is Jehovah. Jacob wrestles with Jehovah face to face. Abraham talks face to face with Jehovah who will judge the whole earth, Jehovah sent fire and brimstone from the Jehovah in heaven, Jesus is called ''Jehovah our righteousness,” John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way of Jehovah, God calls Him Jehovah who laid the foundation of the earth, etc. There, not to mention the I AM's.You ask me to show you where Jesus said “I am I AM” in the NT…where does the Father say this in the NT? Where does the Son say that about the Father in the NT? You see, just because it is not worded according to your 'letter' that doesn't mean it is not so.
The I AM is not just a pronoun/verb commonly used, it can be commonly used but show me where it is not used as an answer or without a direct object when applied truthfully to anyone else. Can you do that? If you can't then that proves that the I AM that Jesus used which doesn't have a direct object after it, is unique and not just an ordinary pronoun/verb.
Kathi
kathiso according to you Jehovah God is a man ??
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,20:48) You ask me to show you where Jesus said “I am I AM” in the NT…where does the Father say this in the NT?
No, I ask you to show ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE that Jesus utters the phrase, “I am I AM”.I can show you MANY times in scripture where Jehovah uttered that very phrase. Show me ONE where Jesus uttered it. If you are unable, then simply don't ever try to claim that Jesus claimed to be “I AM” ever again, okay? You KNOW the truth of the matter now, so please don't speak OUTSIDE OF the truth we know.
As for all of you “Jehovah the Son” proofs, not one of them speaks of Jesus being Jehovah, so once again, you're speaking OUTSIDE OF the truth we know.
Kathi, the Father's name is “Jehovah”. The Son's name is “Joshua”.
Let the scriptures teach you, Kathi.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,04:06) John 1
50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”Well, I haven't even left chapter 1 yet, and already I found this DIRECT QUOTE of Jesus' words. What can we learn from this simple exchange between Jesus and Nathaniel?
1. The “angels” belong, not to Jesus, but to “God” – as indicated by the possesive phrase “OF God”.
2. The angels will not be ascending and descending on the One to whom they belong – but to one distinguished as someone OTHER THAN that One by the different title “Son of Man”.
Okay, your turn guys.
Hi mike b.coll.15:16—All things wre created BY HIM AND FOR HIM.
wakeup.
Actually Wakeup,
All things were created THROUGH him and for him. Never “by” him.
Look to 1 Cor 8:6 for confirmation:
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.There is a definite distinction. Tertullian once wrote:
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.This is the truth of the matter, despite the Trinitarian biased translations trying to make Jesus be our Creator by translating “through” as “by”. You have simply fallen for their ploy. They try hard to blur the line between the TWO persons Tertullian mentioned above.
Another way you can check is by the wording. Jesus is never listed as the subject of a sentence about the act of creation. For example, you can find many scriptures saying “God created this” or “God created that”. God is listed as the subject of the sentence. BUT………since Jesus himself didn't actually create anything, he must always be listed as the object of the verb, instead of as the subject.
You won't find a verse that says “Jesus created”. Instead, all verses mentioning Jesus in the act of creation place him as the object, ie: “All things were created through Jesus”, instead of “Jesus created all things.”
Notice how “all things” is the subject of the sentence, instead of “Jesus” being the subject. And the reason is, to list Jesus as the subject, the sentence would then have to say “Jesus created……….”. And since the NT writers know that isn't the case, each time they mention the act of creation and Jesus' role in it, “all things” must be the subject – not “Jesus”.
I can also list four separate scriptures that list Jesus not only as someone OTHER THAN our Creator, but also as part OF the creation by that Creator. The prayer in Acts 4 is one of them. Notice that they pray TO the Creator of all things, and they pray TO Him THROUGH His Servant Jesus Christ.
If Jesus is not the One who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them, (as is evident from the prayer), then he has no choice but to be one of the things created BY that One.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
