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Mike said:
Quote John 8:24
“If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”I think these words spoken by Jesus himself answer the question in the title of this thread. YES, it IS important that we know exactly who Jesus is in relation to his God. If not, we will indeed die in our sins.
Jesus simply said, “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”The italicized words Mike attributes to Jesus are not written. It is written that He simply said, “If you believe not that I AM.”
KJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2011,12:32) Mike,
I have discussed your last point more than once. You know what I think.Kathi
Kathi,Mike asks the same questions over and over and over again. He won't move on to new arguments.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 15 2011,09:53) Mike said: Quote John 8:24
“If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”I think these words spoken by Jesus himself answer the question in the title of this thread. YES, it IS important that we know exactly who Jesus is in relation to his God. If not, we will indeed die in our sins.
Jesus simply said, “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”KJ
J KOOQuote Jesus simply said, “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.” The italicized words Mike attributes to Jesus are not written. It is written that He simply said, “If you believe not that I AM.”
KJ
Jn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”NIV”
Jn 8:25 “Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus repliedJn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.NKJV
Jn 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
this is very clear to me ,Mike is right
Jn 13:19 “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He.
Jn 13:20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me.”Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2011,04:47) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 15 2011,09:53) Mike said: Quote John 8:24
“If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”I think these words spoken by Jesus himself answer the question in the title of this thread. YES, it IS important that we know exactly who Jesus is in relation to his God. If not, we will indeed die in our sins.
Jesus simply said, “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”KJ
J KOOQuote Jesus simply said, “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.” The italicized words Mike attributes to Jesus are not written. It is written that He simply said, “If you believe not that I AM.”
KJ
Jn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”NIV”
Jn 8:25 “Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus repliedJn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.NKJV
Jn 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
this is very clear to me ,Mike is right
Jn 13:19 “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He.
Jn 13:20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me.”Pierre
Pierre,Mike KNOWS that the Greek text says only “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”
Therefore, Mike is adding to what is written just as the translators added to what is written. If Mike didn't know what is written it would be different.
KJ
KJ.
“I am” in the New Testament is used by anyone wanting to convey the English equivalent of I am.
A bit like this example:
Q: Are you t8?
A: I amSo we see in scripture:
Q: Are you Jesus of Nazareth?
A: I am.No fancy complicated secretly embedded message here KJ.
Jesus said that he was Jesus of Nazareth.The I am doctrine you espouse resides only in your head and is not scriptural.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2011,06:35) KJ. “I am” in the New Testament is used by anyone wanting to convey the English equivalent of I am.
A bit like this example:
Q: Are you t8?
A: I amSo we see in scripture:
Q: Are you Jesus of Nazareth?
A: I am.No fancy complicated secretly embedded message here KJ.
Jesus said that he was Jesus of Nazareth.The I am doctrine you espouse resides only in your head and is not scriptural.
You left out that they wanted to stone Him for saying “before Abraham was I Am.” You left out that He had just said, “Abraham rejoiced to see My day [of visitation].” Who visited Abraham t8? Clue: YHWH in human form (Gen. 18).The anti-Ts deny that the Father ever took human form. Therefore, by your own process we must infer that the YHWH who visited Abraham in human form must have been Jesus.
Or will you adopt Mike's silly idea that the Hebrews called those they knew were angels by the name YHWH?
I marvel that you think the Jews would want to stone Him for saying “I AM Jesus of Nazareth.” His enemies confessed that He was Jesus of Nazareth (Mk. 14:67). But they wanted to stone Him for His “I AM” claim in John 8:58.
You have not increased in your scholarship abilities in the four years I have been here. And your pal Mike is getting more novice every day. He says that he will be a “happy camper” if we changed Colossians 1:16 from “all things were created in Him” to “all things were created through Him” as if it would change anything. The Greek Lexicons show that the two prepositions may mean “by means of.”
Listen to how utterly ridiculous this sounds,
“I would be a happy camper if you changed Colossians 1:16 from in to through.”
And Mike thinks by such arguments he is going to destroy Trinitarianism!
Mike and his dependency on prepositions and now you suggesting that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for saying, “I AM Jesus of Nazareth.”
Your hearts are becoming more darkened every day.
KJ
Kj
Quote And Mike thinks by such arguments he is going to destroy Trinitarianism! 
why would you think anyone try to destroy trinitarians ?
did Christ try to destroy the dogma of the zealots, Pharisees,or Sadducee ??it their live that as to be important to them ,
Eze 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.
Eze 3:19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2011,23:12) Mike,
Read my signature…it tells you
I have a better idea: YOU should read the scriptures I listed and take notice of the fact that your signature disagrees with them.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2011,12:25) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2011,04:47) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 15 2011,09:53) Mike said: Quote John 8:24
“If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”I think these words spoken by Jesus himself answer the question in the title of this thread.
The italicized words Mike attributes to Jesus are not written. It is written that He simply said, “If you believe not that I AM.”
KJ
Jn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. ”NIV”Jn 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
this is very clear to me ,Mike is right
Pierre
Pierre,Mike KNOWS that the Greek text says only “If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”
Therefore, Mike is adding to what is written just as the translators added to what is written. If Mike didn't know what is written it would be different.
KJ
That's right, Jack – I did “JUST AS THE TRANSLATORS DID”.All I did was copy and paste the NIV's translation of 8:24. Will you now write a letter to the over 100 Trinitarian scholars who translated the NIV, and tell THEM that THEY added to the scriptures?
But let's get to the bottom of this “I AM” stuff once and for all.
1. The evidence points to “YHWH” meaning “I WILL BE”, not “I AM”. BUT…………………..
2. Even if we use “I AM”, what exactly do you think Jesus was saying? Did Jesus say, “I AM I AM”? Because that's the way Jehovah called Himself by Name in the OT.
Isaiah 48:12 NIV ©
“Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.”The Hebrew word for these three bolded “I ams” is “aniy”. That Hebrew word is in the above scripture three times, and is translated by the NIV as “I am” all three times.
Now compare to this following scripture, where Jehovah is claiming to BE “Jehovah”:
Isaiah 45:18 NIV ©
For this is what the LORD says—he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.Do you see the underlined “I am”? That is the same Hebrew word “aniy”. See Jack? I've tried to explain this to Kathi a number of times and a number of different ways – to no avail. Let's see if YOU can grasp this simple concept. Tell me if the following makes any sense:
For this is what Jehovah says – “Jehovah, and there is no other.”
Do you see the flaw? In order for the sentence to make sense, we need that word “aniy” IN FRONT OF God's Name. He can't just say, “Jehovah, and I created you.” That makes no sense. He must say, “I AM Jehovah, and I created you.” He must say, “I AM Jehovah, and there is no other.” In the first scripture I quoted, He can't just say, “He, the first and the last”. To make sense, He must say, “I AM He; I AM the first and I AM the last.”
In other words, every time Jehovah claimed to BE “Jehovah”, He said “I AM Jehovah”, or as you like it, “I AM I AM”.
Jesus did NOT do this at any time. Jesus NEVER said the phrase, “I AM I AM”, or “I WAS I AM”. So like t8 pointed out, “the 'I am' doctrine you espouse resides only in your head”.
For Jesus to be claiming to have BEEN Jehovah, he would have said, “Before Abraham, I HAVE BEEN I AM”, or “I WAS I AM”, or “I AM I AM”. But Jesus did NOT say any of those phrases in 8:58………..or in any other scripture.
Are you able to grasp this simple concept that Kathi wasn't able to grasp?
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2011,09:57) Kathi, Mike asks the same questions over and over and over again. He won't move on to new arguments.
KJ
These actually are new arguments, Jack. Kathi has so far refused to discuss the undeniable fact that Rev 4:11 and Is 42:5 clearly distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the ONE who created all things. And unlike Acts 4:24, you can't escape these two by hiding behind the word “poieo”.Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2011,15:54) Kj Quote And Mike thinks by such arguments he is going to destroy Trinitarianism! why would you think anyone try to destroy trinitarians ?
did Christ try to destroy the dogma of the zealots, Pharisees,or Sadducee ??it their live that as to be important to them ,
Eze 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.
Eze 3:19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.Pierre
That's right Pierre,I don't want to be accountable for their blood because I remained silent. Good use of scripture!
Jack,
you made a good point here:
Quote I marvel that you think the Jews would want to stone Him for saying “I AM Jesus of Nazareth.” His enemies confessed that He was Jesus of Nazareth (Mk. 14:67). But they wanted to stone Him for His “I AM” claim in John 8:58. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2011,17:28) Kathi? Rev 4:11? Is 42:1-9? WHO did the creating? You can address this point either in this thread or in your poll thread about the Creator……………but please address these scriptures in one of the threads.
So Mike,
You say that I can discuss these verses here or in the other thread. Now, did you check that other thread before you started claiming that I refused to discuss it?see here…second post down:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….1;st=70Kathi
LU, read the context without bias and you will find that Jesus words in verse 58 were so offensive to the Jews, that they simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him. It had nothing to do with two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52. So why stone him then, if he was not claiming to be God? Well look at the facts and wonder no longer:
- he accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
- he said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
- he implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
- he said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
- he said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
- he implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
- he said their father was the devil (vs.44).
- he said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
- he accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
- he accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
- he accused them of lying (vs.55).
- he said that he saw Abraham (vs.56).Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe:
- that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
- he had a devil (vs.52).
- that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).If this is not enough for them to want to stone him, then ask yourself this question:Why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stone-able offence. He was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.
Nope, Kathi. I went to that thread AFTER I finished with this one. And I've already addressed your points over there. But to be fair, I brought up Rev 4:11 to you a couple of weeks ago – and until today you HAVE refused to address it.
But since we are discussing it in the other thread, how about you address my “I AM I AM” post to Jack in this thread?
Good post, t8. One more point: Nor would it have even been blasphemy if Jesus was God. Yet Jesus took offense to the Jews and asked why they would accuse him of blasphemy. For him to deny blaspheming meant that he was capable of blaspheming. And God cannot possibly blaspheme against Himself.
Yes Mike.
A simple case of not reading all the facts.
Conclusions can be very different when you select only part of the story.E.g., “There is no God” is very different to “the fool has said in his heart, there is no God”.
t8,
The 'ego eimi' does not have a direct object and that makes it significantly different than the other times. You don't seem to see that it makes a difference.The bottom line is that Thomas called Him, 'MY Lord and MY God.' Jesus did not disagree with that acknowledgement but called those of us blessed who believe that when we did not see Him for ourselves.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,19:20) Nope, Kathi. I went to that thread AFTER I finished with this one. And I've already addressed your points over there. But to be fair, I brought up Rev 4:11 to you a couple of weeks ago – and until today you HAVE refused to address it. But since we are discussing it in the other thread, how about you address my “I AM I AM” post to Jack in this thread?
Not true, I have discussed Rev 4 with you before. See your response to what I said about Rev 4 here, as far back as Oct. 27th.see for yourself:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=250
I have also discussed “I Am” with you before but I will look to see what you said to Jack.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,17:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2011,23:12) Mike,
Read my signature…it tells you
I have a better idea: YOU should read the scriptures I listed and take notice of the fact that your signature disagrees with them.
Mike,
You don't understand unity and you don't understand the different roles that Jesus had…one as the one all things were created through before the ages and the other as a created man much later.Kathi
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