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Well, if God sent one of His angels to me with the words of God Himself, then I would trust in that god also.
Mike,
Do you trust in the angels to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Do you trust in the Father alone to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Do you trust in the Son to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Yes Kathi,
I would trust in Gabriel or Michael to lead me to Jesus, who would in turn lead me to our ONE true God, Jehovah – the ONLY one who has the power of salvation in His hands – (though He often exercises that power through His many vice regents like the angel that killed the 185,000 Assyrians in one night, and like Jesus).
Kathi, where are you going with this line of questioning? I already agree that Jesus is greater than any other vice regent of God. And you should know by now that you will never convince me that the Son OF God is the God he is the Son of, nor that we have TWO Gods.
So, what is your goal here?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2011,03:30) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2011,22:43) Mike, Quote Concerning the compound unity: Israel is a nation. It is not a PERSON. The church is a conglomeration of multiple people, not a PERSON. I consider God to be a PERSON, not a “government” made up of many. To you, is “God” a PERSON, or a conglomeration? Again,
God can be what the unity is called, or either person is called. The word God/elohim/theos can mean supreme authority and as the unity of the Father and the Son with their Spirit, there would be supreme authority.Kathi
My God has a name, Kathi. That name is YHWH. My God also has a Son whose name is Jesus.When I ask my God for help, I am asking a PERSON whose name is Jehovah. I make the request THROUGH a PERSON named Jesus.
We are no longer allowed to approach our God directly, because mankind's sins have piled up all the way to heaven. That is why I approach our ONE God THROUGH the Mediator and Priest He set up for us. That Servant of God acts as a filter for us, carrying our petitions on to God Himself, who will no longer deal with us directly. He does this with PLEADING and PETITIONS and PRAYERS to our ONE God, who also happens to be HIS God. (Romans 8:34)
But in your mind, by the time your prayers have reached the Priest, they have already reached one of your Gods. Why would the Mediator BETWEEN you and one of your Gods be the other one of your Gods?
Why would one of your Gods be the Priest to the other One? And if Jesus is equally God, then surely he can do for us whatever the Father could do for us, right? So why bother trying to go THROUGH Jesus to get to the Father in the first place? Who needs the Father at all if we have direct contact with a different God who can do for us anything the Father could do for us? Why not just forget about the Father altogether since our other God can answer our prayers on his own? Whether you recognize it our not, THIS is exactly the end result of the Trinity Doctrine that Satan so delicately put into the minds of certain people. And Satan's plan has been working perfectly for years. Which of the “Jesus is God” people out there need the Father? Listen to your contemporary Christian music station, Kathi. Spend a day listening to these beautiful songs about how God did this and God does that for us. And then notice in the chorus how the “God” they're singing so wonderfully to is actually Jesus, not Jehovah. People think that Jesus IS God, and sing God's praises to God's Son instead of to Him. A few of them make vague references to “Father, Spirit and Son”, but they seem to think the NAME of this trinity is JESUS! It's appalling to us who have but one God, the Father, and the Lord HE set in place – His begotten Son.
Kathi, I believe it's time for you to change your signature once again. You are now claiming that “God” can refer to Jesus, the Father, or the unity of the two. And “Lord” can refer to any of those three choices also. Which puts a HEAVY damper on your Deut 10:17 “proof text” – a damper which you now address by leaving all scripture open to “the interpretation of Kathi – according to how well it fits into the doctrine you've created”.
What? This scripture calls the Father “Lord”? Oh, that's okay now, because my doctrine no longer insists that Jesus is the “Lord part of Jehovah”. I have now adjusted my doctrine to the point that I can make any claim I want: Jesus can be “God”. The Father can be “Lord”. Either one of them can be “Jehovah”. In fact, sometimes they can BOTH be “God” or “Lord” or “Jehovah”. With this kind of flexibility, I can now make any scripture claim what I WANT it to claim!
Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) This is the scriptural TRUTH of the matter, no matter how often you want to twist various scriptures to your liking.
peace,
mike
Mike! Do you remember when I said to Kathi, YOUR DOCTRINE of JEHOVAH…. I got crucified, and I apologized….now she overlooks it….I said this before that she is after me….. her questioning is to
trip you up, if that is possible… just watch out….also this Scripture she should take to heart..
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
That doctrine is not according to Scriptures , but a man made doctrine, just like the trinity is….Peace IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 26 2011,04:33) Mike,
Do you trust in many theos or do you trust in two theos?
I can answer for him, after all he has told us enough times.He worships and trusts one God the Father.
And I am sure that he has a level of trust for others.
Some of them might even be called 'theos' according to scripture.It's easy to try and twist someone's words to accuse them of trusting in two Gods.
But if you understood that there is one who is God, (the Father) and that theos is applied differently to others, then there is no such reason for your question because you trust one as God, and others to varying degrees, whom some might even be called 'theos'.
We have scripture on our side Kathi when it comes to one God the Father and acknowledging other uses for the word 'theos'. Whereas you play around with this in the same fashion that the Trinitarians did, and accuse us of things that are not real. We simply acknowledge the way 'theos' is used. What is wrong with that? I say nothing is wrong with that. We are letting scripture be the teacher if we do that.
I see that your problem is not with Mike, but scripture itself.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,12:57) Mike, Do you trust in the angels to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Do you trust in the Father alone to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Do you trust in the Son to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Mike,
Your response did not answer the questions here. Please just answer the questions with simple answers. Thanks!Kathi
t8,
you said:Quote I see that your problem is not with Mike, but scripture itself. It is written:
Isaiah 54:5
“For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.Mark 12:35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Luke 1:11 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. 13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God . 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared forthe Lord .”
The “Lord their God” here is the same one that John goes before as a forerunner…i.e. Jesus.
“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord;
Jesus speaking:
Matt 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “ I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.John 20:26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel,preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) —37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40“God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.1 Corinthians 1:2 NAS
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,2 Thessalonians 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.
If you look at the Greek, you will see that all the verbs that are in these two verses are written in the singular form, yet there are two subjects which would normally require the verbs to be written in plural form. This suggests a compound unity of two persons, acting as one person
Tit 2:13, 14
…while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, “that he (Jesus) might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works”.Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show
partiality nor take a bribe. the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.Irene,
you said:Quote
Mike! Do you remember when I said to Kathi, YOUR DOCTRINE of JEHOVAH…. I got crucified, and I apologized….now she overlooks it….I said this before that she is after me….. her questioning is to
trip you up, if that is possible… just watch out….also this Scripture she should take to heart..
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
That doctrine is not according to Scriptures , but a man made doctrine, just like the trinity is….Peace IreneWhy don't you tell me what commandment of men that I am teaching for doctrines or stop accusing me.
Maybe you are the one that is after me…I wasn't posting to you and then you show up out of the blue warning about me and accusing me.
Back up your words…or apologize.
Kathi
Hi Kathi,
The doctrine that Jehovah is God Most High and Jesus is the Son OF Jehovah God Most High is the SCRIPTURAL doctrine.
The doctrine that Jesus IS “Jehovah the Son” and “God Most High, the Son” is a doctrine of MEN. (Actually, it's a doctrine of Satan, who was able to convince many MEN that there is truth in it.)
I believe that is to what Irene refers. Your doctrine is NOT of the scriptures, Kathi – it is of MEN.
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 26 2011,10:17) her questioning is to
trip you up, if that is possible… just watch out
Hi Irene,Thanks for your concern, but Kathi can't possibly “trip me up” if I'm speaking nothing but scriptural truth.
The most that she could do is to lead me to a truth of the scriptures that I had overlooked before…………..and that would be a GOOD thing, right?But don't worry; I know how to test the spirit of her words against the truth of the scriptures. I won't say it's impossible for me to be mislead, but the more I study God's written word, the more unlikely that possibility becomes.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2011,19:03) Hi Kathi, The doctrine that Jehovah is God Most High and Jesus is the Son OF Jehovah God Most High is the SCRIPTURAL doctrine.
The doctrine that Jesus IS “Jehovah the Son” and “God Most High, the Son” is a doctrine of MEN. (Actually, it's a doctrine of Satan, who was able to convince many MEN that there is truth in it.)
I believe that is to what Irene refers. Your doctrine is NOT of the scriptures, Kathi – it is of MEN.
Mike,
How about everyone answer their own posts that are addressed to them…ok?If it is as you say then that is a real incomplete and twisted summary of what I speak of.
See my signature.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 26 2011,16:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2011,12:57) Mike, 1. Do you trust in the angels to be your righteousness unto salvation?
2. Do you trust in the Father alone to be your righteousness unto salvation?
3. Do you trust in the Son to be your righteousness unto salvation?
Mike,
Your response did not answer the questions here. Please just answer the questions with simple answers. Thanks!Kathi
1. Yes.2. Yes.
3. Yes.
The Father ALONE holds my salvation in His hands. But He has sent one of his angels, Jesus, to speak His words to us and tell us that there is only one name under heaven through which we can be saved. I trust and believe the Son because he didn't make claims based solely on his own testimony, but the One who sent him also testified in his behalf. I also trust in the angels who minister to the Father, His Son, and the holy ones of God – like the one who helped John into righteousness and salvation by reminding him that angels of God are not to be worshipped, but only God Himself.
Many play a part in our righteousness and salvation, Kathi. I don't have to stop at angels, you know. I could keep going down the line and include my family, or pastors, people on this site, historical people from the Bible whose words of faith in God and selfless actions inspired me, etc.
peace,
mikeMaybe you all would have had a laugh at Thomas in the upper room and would have told him that He has a problem with scripture itself.
John 20:28
28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Both Lord and God have a definite article with them in the Greek, btw.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2011,04:29) I believe in the existence of “many gods and many lords, in heaven and on earth”.
But Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is that for the people of God there is only one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. The terms “God” and “Lord” are equivalent because Paul was denouncing the pagan hierarchies.So for the people of God there is no hierarchy. Just God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ the Father's equal.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Sep. 30 2011,08:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2011,04:29) I believe in the existence of “many gods and many lords, in heaven and on earth”.
But Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is that for the people of God there is only one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. The terms “God” and “Lord” are equivalent because Paul was denouncing the pagan hierarchies.So for the people of God there is no hierarchy. Just God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ the Father's equal.
KJ
KJwrong again,why would Paul make a distinction then between God and Lord if he wanted Christ to be shown equal to his father
?what Paul pointing out is that there is only ONE true GOD and one true SON and Lord just as it is preached in all scriptures by all withers,
THERE NEVER WAS AND WILL BE AN EQUAL TO GOD THE FATHER ,
Pierre
The people of God believed only in ONE GOD and not three in one God…. in Paul's time there was no trinity… It was in the third century that Constantine made it a Law…..1 Corinth.8: 6 is very plain about it, one God the Father…… AND one Lord Jesus Christ…..they are not equal…..
IreneCould you say what Thomas said to Jesus, Irene?
John 20:28
28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2011,05:58) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Sep. 30 2011,08:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2011,04:29) I believe in the existence of “many gods and many lords, in heaven and on earth”.
But Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is that for the people of God there is only one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. The terms “God” and “Lord” are equivalent because Paul was denouncing the pagan hierarchies.So for the people of God there is no hierarchy. Just God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ the Father's equal.
KJ
KJwrong again,why would Paul make a distinction then between God and Lord if he wanted Christ to be shown equal to his father
?what Paul pointing out is that there is only ONE true GOD and one true SON and Lord just as it is preached in all scriptures by all withers,
THERE NEVER WAS AND WILL BE AN EQUAL TO GOD THE FATHER ,
Pierre
Paul was speaking against the pagan hierarchies. Why would he tell christians to have a hierarchy after speaking against such things? Jesus is not Lord under the Father. That's Paul's whole point. He said that God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are the co-source of all things.But in your puny manner you just single out a phrase with no regard for context and corrupt the truth.
Your heretical views of the word “Son” in reference to Jesus have been disproven before. Jesus is “Son” in the Hebrew sense of the name. The fully investitured “Son” in the Hebrew culture was equal to his father.
KJ
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