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John 8:24
“If you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”I think these words spoken by Jesus himself answer the question in the title of this thread. YES, it IS important that we know exactly who Jesus is in relation to his God. If not, we will indeed die in our sins.
John 8:25
“Who are you?” they asked. “Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus replied.And what Jesus had been claiming all along is exactly what I'd like to discuss in this thread. I pose this as a challenge to any “Jesus is God” people out there:
Using ONLY the words of Jesus himself, as DIRECTLY quoted by John up until chapter 8, verse 24, can you show us where JESUS HIMSELF ever claimed to be God, or equal to Him?
Let me get us all started here:
John 1
38 Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, “What do you want?”They said, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?”
39 “Come,” he replied, “and you will see.”
These are the first words of Jesus, as DIRECTLY QUOTED by John the Apostle of Christ. Can anything be found within these words to imply that Jesus claimed to be God or equal to Him?
No? Then let's continue. But instead of me listing all the words of Jesus that DON'T say anything about him being God, how about you guys show me his first quote from the first 8 chapters of John's gospel that DOES imply he is God Almighty.
And I will from now on only post the quotes of Jesus that clearly indicate he is someone OTHER THAN his own God.
Ready, set, go!
John 1
50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.” 51 He then added, “I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”Well, I haven't even left chapter 1 yet, and already I found this DIRECT QUOTE of Jesus' words. What can we learn from this simple exchange between Jesus and Nathaniel?
1. The “angels” belong, not to Jesus, but to “God” – as indicated by the possesive phrase “OF God”.
2. The angels will not be ascending and descending on the One to whom they belong – but to one distinguished as someone OTHER THAN that One by the different title “Son of Man”.
Okay, your turn guys.
all
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave, his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.John always recognize Christ as the son never as God himself
Pierre
Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Peace and Love Ireen
John 2:16
To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!”Whose house is the Temple of God? Was it Jesus's house? Or the house of HIS FATHER? Once again, Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God, according to HIS OWN WORDS.
Quote (terraricca @ July 31 2011,11:26) all John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave, his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.John always recognize Christ as the son never as God himself
Pierre
John 3
16“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s only begotten Son.”Remember that the bolded words are all words Jesus himself spoke, as recorded verbatim by John.
So once again, Jesus, by HIS OWN WORDS, distinguishes himself as someone OTHER THAN the God who “gave him” and “sent him”.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,13:27) Quote (terraricca @ July 31 2011,11:26) all John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave, his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.John always recognize Christ as the son never as God himself
Pierre
John 3
16“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s only begotten Son.”Remember that the bolded words are all words Jesus himself spoke, as recorded verbatim by John.
So once again, Jesus, by HIS OWN WORDS, distinguishes himself as someone OTHER THAN the God who “gave him” and “sent him”.
mike
Mikeyes of cause ,never in scripture was it any other way,
unless we change words by adding or subtracting ,and this would mean they refuse to recognized Jesus Christ as the son of God just as he his and always said,and all who have known him personalty testify to that.
and I know he his the son of God
Pierre
Yeah Pierre,
But this thread gives them the opportunity to show us all the times when Jesus, IN HIS OWN WORDS, taught that he was God Almighty, or equal to Him.
Let's see if any of them take the challenge.
peace,
mikeBump for the “Jesus is God” people out there. What's the matter? Can't find one single spoken sentence of Jesus where he claims to be God Almighty?
Here's your chance guys.
Kathi? Keith? Jack? Where are you guys?
This is your chance to show where Jesus himself taught that he was God Almighty.
Don't you WANT to show us?
Mike: Oh how you love to play with words to make a point. There is no “life” in making a point. The words of God are living and create life in those that find them. Gods words are healing to their bones, along with life, love, peace, joy, good things of health and life.
I will give you my opinion as to your query! In the beginning was what I term to be God. God is not a name like Bill. “God” is a term used to describe the source of life or all that exists. Whatever was, whatever is, whatever is being and whatever will be is “God”. For me God is all that is and all that is, came from God and is in God. Everything that has life is in God because God is ONE life, one all inclusive force of all that is. ONE life source of living creating energy is God. Billions of aspects or traits of God, all in union with love and life. God is all good, life, and truth. Since a creation of God called man came along with the power of God to create, even mistakes or illusions of truth. Evil, death, and destruction came on board.
We each have are own part in earth, for transforming evil thinking and all its aspects back to love/union in God. All will return to union with God for all came from God.
Jesus is to God what a cell in your body is to you. Each cell has a full DNA written which can be cloned into another you! If that cell begins to destroy other cells, what we call cancer, it must be repaired or replaced. Any mind that separates itself from union with or agreement with life, or disassociates itself from perfect union with life is in sin, leading to death, for it is apart from life. Thoughts dictate your bodies functions even to the point of overriding the autonomic system in many cases. Concentrate on fear of non-health and see what you get.
You have attempted to put a “physical title” on Spirit, IMO. Jesus was a physical man birthed like you and me with the breath of life/spirit of God within. The breath we take for life is “pneuma/air/life/spirit”!! We are filled with spirit/life at birth. There are many doctrines that separate spirit like its here or there or up there, under there. I have it or I don't have it. I disagree. There is ONE spirit/God/life!! That ONE Spirit has trillions of aspects(like drops in the Ocean) some of which have turned cancerous and must be healed to life. The Holy Spirit is when the words/doctrines/thoughts that a person has are only pure, righteous, perfect, sin-free, WHOLE, complete, in total union with God. Mind/Spirit that has believed incorrectly, is separated by illusion/sin or mistaken thinking, which it is a cancer removed from within the body and is outside of truth/God or in outer darkness apart from or not in union with, life and perfection.
My answer: JESUS IS MY GOD! GOD HAS PLACED HIM HIGH ABOVE ALL THAT IS. JESUS IS A NAME, GOD IS AN INCLUSIVE TERM DESCRIBING ONE SPIRIT. I made Jesus lord of my life. We are all ONE with God/Jesus/Spirit in truth. We must remove the error/sin/wrong thinking, that might say we are not, to find our home “IN GOD”. IMO, TK
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 04 2011,04:57) Mike: Oh how you love to play with words to make a point.
I'm sorry Tim………………….was there a direct quote of Jesus from the first 8 chapters of John where you think Jesus taught us that he was God Almighty Himself?Because THAT'S what this thread is about. And THAT'S what I'm waiting for.
peace,
mikeMike: Sorry I thought the thread was, “Is God Almighty One? Two? Or three?”! That's different from, ” Is Jesus God”!
God is one all inclusive force of life! God is ONE according to Jesus. One means every thing that has life is in God and God is in everything. Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus. Jesus prayed that we would also recognize that we are ONE with them. God is spirit or all that is. In the beginning was spirit. Quantum Theory has now proven that according to the Planck scale, energy at o-point to the 31st power is a flowing, living, plasma like life form everywhere, that was and is connected or “entangled” through out. Its not water its not air is universal, ever pulsating, moving, energy of life that's everywhere. That sounds like God to me. God is everywhere, in everything, of everything, around everything, between everything, creating life as a force of love that expands forever.
God is all and in all! Jesus is God, you are God, Jesus said, “do not the scriptures say, “I have called you gods” when the Pharisees attacked him about being God. Our minds are of God, from God, minds of Christ that have the anointing of God for love creation.There is only one Mind of Christ! We refuse to un-veil our minds to the truth. Our breath is God, the life force of all living. If we align our minds with the truth God gave through Jesus, willing to remove old, powerless, religious doctrines of unworthiness and let God recreate our minds(new birth) with what he says we are, then we begin to remove mental blockages to be able to recognize who we really are and what we have always been in order to return(our minds) to our home in God(mental awareness) where we
originated from. All in the mind! We don't have to go anywhere. This awareness can be here, there or everywhere! God sent his word/Jesus to clarify and recreate(unveil, uncover) our minds to the truth of who we are. God almighty is ONE and we are ONE with him. We just don't believe it yet. Jesus did believe it!! IMO, TK
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 05 2011,04:11) Mike: Sorry I thought the thread was, “Is God Almighty One? Two? Or three?”! That's different from, ” Is Jesus God”!
Hi Tim,Read the OP of the thread, please. In John 8:25, Jesus is asked, “Who are you?” He replies, “Exactly who I've been claiming to be all along”.
So, we have started by listing a couple of scriptures from John's gospel that predate this statement Jesus made. The scriptures we've listed so far make it abundantly clear that Jesus claims to be someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO God.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to show the actual words of Jesus himself (as in a DIRECT QUOTE) at a time when he is claiming to be God Almighty, or equal to God Almighty. And for now, we're only considering the first 8 chapters of John, because it was after these events, as recorded by John, that Jesus said he was exactly who he had been claiming to be all along.
Get it?
I'll await your first quote of Jesus' words from the gospel of John – where he teaches us that he IS God Almighty or equal to Him.
peace to you Tim,
mikeMike: Jesus confirmed that he was the Messiah to come or the Christ at John4:26, I that speak unto thee am he….
At John 9:35 Jesus ask the man….Dost thou believe on the Son of God….at V:37….Jesus said thou hast both seen him and it is he that talketh with thee. At v38 the man worshipped him. He must have believed Jesus was God in the flesh!
At John10:33 they(Jews) accused Jesus of making himself out to be God, which Jesus answered in confirmation(not rejection) Is it not written in your law, …..I said(God said)…Ye are gods?(everyone)…Jesus went on to confirm that ……V35…If (God) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came and the scripture cannot be broken…..V36..say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,..Thou blasphemest because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD!
The father has given all things unto the son! All power(authority) in heaven and in earth have been given to the son(son's) of God! Jesus said “therefore” (or) because all power is in his name(authority to use) go and do the very works I did with my authority and baptize them(all who will accept the truth) with the same(spirit) authority to go forth. I would say Jesus is from God, in God, through God, part of God, a piece of God but there is a composite of pieces of God, yet all gods.
I feel like you are trying to force an answer you have chosen. It seems to me you are attempting to separate Jesus as lessor, from God which for me is a destroying doctrine. For one thing the lessor is the greater in the Kingdom of God. Two entities with the same power and authority are one. There is one cause of God given to Jesus to teach mankind the truth of who he really is so he will raise back up to God (from where he came) and stop destroying himself and the earth with lies from darkness.
There is no separation in truth. If a person allows himself to be created(mentally) by accept & absorbing only truth(spirit) from God he returns home in God from where he came from.
Sorry, probably not distinctly according to the thread but most posts are not. Much love and respect intended! IMO, TK
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 06 2011,04:20)
Mike: Jesus confirmed that he was the Messiah to come or the Christ at John4:26, I that speak unto thee am he….
Very good, Tim. So when Jesus said he was exactly who he'd been claiming to be all along, it includes “Messiah OF God”, right? Not “God Himself” or “Equal TO God”, but “One whom God anointed”, right?See? This is the kind of stuff we're after here in this thread. So, thank you for that one.
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 06 2011,04:20)
At John 9:35 Jesus ask the man….Dost thou believe on the Son of God….at V:37….Jesus said thou hast both seen him and it is he that talketh with thee. At v38 the man worshipped him. He must have believed Jesus was God in the flesh!
This is out of our realm, for we are discussing only the first 8 chapters of John's gospel. If you would like to discuss your misunderstanding of the Greek word “proskuneo”, or how this man “DID OBEISANCE TO JESUS” as opposed to “WORSHIPPING HIM”, hit me up on the “Who should we worship” thread.Quote (ftk @ Aug. 06 2011,04:20)
At John10:33 they(Jews) accused Jesus of making himself out to be God, which Jesus answered in confirmation(not rejection) Is it not written in your law, …..I said(God said)…Ye are gods?(everyone)…Jesus went on to confirm that ……V35…If (God) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came and the scripture cannot be broken…..V36..say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,..Thou blasphemest because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD!
Again, this is from chapter 10, and therefore out of the parameters set for this thread. But I thank you once again for pointing out that Jesus claimed, not to be GOD HIMSELF, but the SON OF God.Quote (ftk @ Aug. 06 2011,04:20)
The father has given all things unto the son! All power(authority) in heaven and in earth have been given to the son(son's) of God!
Yes Tim. God surely has given His own Son a lot of authority, hasn't He?Quote (ftk @ Aug. 06 2011,04:20)
I feel like you are trying to force an answer you have chosen. It seems to me you are attempting to separate Jesus as lessor, from God which for me is a destroying doctrine.
Fantastic! You are right on both accounts, Tim! First, I AM trying to force a scriptural answer from the spoken words of Jesus himself. I am trying to FORCE you guys to show us where Jesus' own words teach us that he is the God he is the Son of.Secondly, I AM trying to teach you that Jesus IS lessor than the God who created him. And if your imagined doctrine of TWO Gods gets destroyed in the process of you learning from the very words of Jesus himself, then I will have done my job successfully.
Quote (ftk @ Aug. 06 2011,04:20)
Two entities with the same power and authority are one.
And this is just one example of how your imagined “TWO GODS” doctrine has mislead you.1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.Where in the world would someone get “SAME power and authority” from this scripture?
Micah 5:4
He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God.Or this one?
Anyway Tim, I want this thread to stay on topic. All I'm asking for from you is a direct quote of the words of Jesus himself, from the first 8 chapters of John's gospel, where he personally teaches us that he is God Almighty, or equal to Him.
You either CAN provide such a scripture, or you CAN'T. Which is it?
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Aug. 01 2011,04:26) all Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave, his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.John always recognize Christ as the son never as God himself
Pierre
Pierre,Referring to John 3:13 KJV,it ends:
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The one you posted has the above missing.
My Point:
Since Jesus said that He is in heaven,and in the same time He is the world, it isn't a enough proof that He is God???
Quote Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. KJV:John 3:13
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2011,22:13) Kathi? Keith? Jack? Where are you guys? This is your chance to show where Jesus himself taught that he was God Almighty.
Don't you WANT to show us?
MikeJohn 1:1 tells us Jesus is “theos\god”. John 3:35 says all things are in Jesus hands which makes him “Almighty”.
What more do you need?
WJ
Quote (csaliba @ Aug. 07 2011,12:58) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 01 2011,04:26) all Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave, his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.John always recognize Christ as the son never as God himself
Pierre
Pierre,Referring to John 3:13 KJV,it ends:
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The one you posted has the above missing.
My Point:
Since Jesus said that He is in heaven,and in the same time He is the world, it isn't a enough proof that He is God???
Quote Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. KJV:John 3:13
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
CharlesJn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
when John wrote his letter was Christ the son of God in heaven ?
or would you try to make me understand what ?
Pierre
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