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“Is slavery wrong? No.
Is forced slavery wrong? Yes.”–t8I argue that it isn't.
T8 says it is.
I've never used the hot seat before. I just want to have a discussion on this.
T8, why do you say its wrong?
And, do you mean it's only presently (morally) wrong?I'm not really sick of t8 avoiding my questions. I'm sick of everyone avoiding this topic. Maybe this is the wrong forum. I don't wish for t8 to get a tile. Nor myself for that matter.
David
Forced slavery is it equal to forced labor,and feed to nearly surviving
And other abuses ? If so it is wrong,for many reasonsQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 29 2014,00:20) David Forced slavery is it equal to forced labor,and feed to nearly surviving
And other abuses ? If so it is wrong,for many reasons
Then you, like t8, would seem to be arguing against God.Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2014,04:14) A modest proposal: We institute forced slavery, as it was sanctioned in the Bible by God.
davidagreed, because of the wickedness of men
David,
Are you speaking of conscripted labor or outright slavery as practiced in the United States up until its abolishment.
Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2014,04:10) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 29 2014,00:20) David Forced slavery is it equal to forced labor,and feed to nearly surviving
And other abuses ? If so it is wrong,for many reasons
Then you, like t8, would seem to be arguing against God.
Davidwhy would a Jew place himself under the power of a unbeliever
also slavery will never come back in god kingdom
for the very reason that it is the rule of LOVE that will be practice
Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2014,10:14) A modest proposal: We institute forced slavery, as it was sanctioned in the Bible by God.
Hi david. Where is this sanctioned forced slavery that gives us the right to enslave people. I have quite a bit of work to do around the property today, so could do with a slave to help me. But need to know it is okay to cherry pick someone off the street first as I don't want to get into trouble. Look forward to the verses.I don't really know how the HOT SEAT works, but there is an almost identical topic on slavery that perhaps everyone who isn't t8 or myself could comment in.
Quote (t8 @ April 15 2014,09:38) Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2014,10:14) A modest proposal: We institute forced slavery, as it was sanctioned in the Bible by God.
Hi david. Where is this sanctioned forced slavery that gives us the right to enslave people. I have quite a bit of work to do around the property today, so could do with a slave to help me. But need to know it is okay to cherry pick someone off the street first as I don't want to get into trouble. Look forward to the verses.
So,T8
my question is: is forced slavery morally wrong?
Whether we have “the right to enslave people” is a different question.
We don't have the right legally to do so. Yet, that isn't my question. My question is, national laws aside, is forced slavery morally wrong or bad?
Of course we don't have the legal right to pick someone off the street and enslave them and force them to work for us. It's not legally “okay” to do this. We both know that.But if this were just 100 or 200 years ago, and slavery were still legal, would forced slavery be wrong? And how would you scripturally defend that position?
You seem to believe forced slavery is wrong.
My problem with this is that God doesn't change. And so there doesn't seem to be anything intrinsically wrong with FORCED slavery.
The Israelites attacked nations, often killed the men, and took the children and women as slaves. (This is the forced slavery)
The Israelites also were allowed to sell themselves to other Israelites as slaves, but the conditions and rules were different and better for them. (I'm not discussing this form of “hired worker” type slaves)
In Christian times, slavery still existed. No condemnation was written against it.Here are some things Christian slaves might have read in Christian times:
“You slaves, be obedient in everything to those who are your human masters,” being ordered to be “in subjection to their owners in all things, trying to please them, not talking back.” And: “Let servants be in subjection to their masters with all due fear, not only to the good and reasonable but also to those hard to please. For it is agreeable when someone endures hardship [grief; pain] and suffers unjustly because of conscience toward God. For what merit is there if you are BEATEN for sinning and you endure it?” And: “Let those who are under the yoke of SLAVERY keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor….KEEP ON TEACHING THESE THINGS and giving these exhortations. IF ANY MAN TEACHES ANOTHER DOCTRINE and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ…”
It really seems like we are to keep teaching these things, and not to teach another doctrine.
Given these things, how could anyone argue that forced slavery is morally wrong scripturally?
David
Quote my question is: is forced slavery morally wrong? yes it is ;it breaks one of the two commandments Christ cited
Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2014,15:30) David Quote my question is: is forced slavery morally wrong? yes it is ;it breaks one of the two commandments Christ cited
Terr,Is it morally wrong to comment in the hot seat if you aren't the one addressed? ((I really don't know. This is why I'm asking. I don't know how the hot seat works.))
See posts above.
Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2014,15:30) David Quote my question is: is forced slavery morally wrong? yes it is ;it breaks one of the two commandments Christ cited
So Christ spoke a lot on the law. He said: it is written…but I say to you. He adjusted a lot and did away with some.It would have been so easy for him to say: “maybe no more owning other people and forcing them to work, no more forced slavery.”
He didn't. Slavery was all around him. Paul mentioned it often. Paul seems to say we should keep teaching the doctrine concerning slavery.
Terr, perhaps if you could respond to this comment in the other thread?
Quote (david @ April 18 2014,16:15) I don't really know how the HOT SEAT works, but there is an almost identical topic on slavery that perhaps everyone who isn't t8 or myself could comment in.
Yes, you can stipulate that it is between yourself and me. So let that be the case from now on as you obviously want that.
Quote (david @ April 18 2014,16:28) But if this were just 100 or 200 years ago, and slavery were still legal, would forced slavery be wrong? And how would you scripturally defend that position?
Love your fellow man as you love yourself.I don't want to be a slave to another man, thus I will not enslave others.
David, the Israelites were not perfect as can be seen in the many judgements that came their way.
And yes, God uses such things as a judgement. Kill with the sword, die by the sword. Worship other gods, then come under the authority of these other gods etc.
God teaches men lessons in this life. He uses the imperfect things in this world created by man and demon to discipline men.
Enslavement was always a judgement. God knows the bigger picture better than you. And you question his character like Job's friends. That is fine. We need to know answers. If a perfect God could only teach us using perfect methods in this world, then he would have to remove us from the world to teach us. But in his wisdom, he disciplines and teaches us using the things of this world. He even uses the Devil to teach us. Even Jesus learned obedience by coming here.
This world has death, disease, war, famine, earthquakes, and iniquity. All are affected by these. What God is looking for is not to escape these things, but that we may be found faithful to God while being subjected to these things.
Quote (david @ April 18 2014,16:47) He didn't. Slavery was all around him. Paul mentioned it often. Paul seems to say we should keep teaching the doctrine concerning slavery.
Jesus did not come here to fix each problem that the world has one by one. He came here to teach the Kingdom of God which is perfect. His mission was not to perfect the old world, but to preach the new one. Why? Because this world is already judged and the age of darkness is fading away. This world has no future. Why bother with fixing this world, when there is a perfect Kingdom that God wants us to participate in. Besides, if men want to fix things in this world that they have created, then he doesn't stop us.
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