Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Dunno]

Quote (Woutlaw @ July 07 2006,21:00)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2006,01:41) Hi dunno, So where is “accepting Jesus ” written in the Word?  Does it mean believe? Does it save someone without repentance? Is this a new way? Your words “When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.” amen Nick, And that's the thing I keep hanging up on is the “accepting Christ into your heart” or “praying Jesus into your heart” thing. I just don't see this in scripture. Can any of you guys give me some scriptures to validate this practice? seriously, i'm not being sarcastic in any sense !!!!

Hi!

I apologize for failing to detect the lawyers and scribes from among us … those who would set aside the fundamental truth intended because of the lack of refined words.

When I mentioned the phrase, “accept Jesus” … anyone sincerely reading it would have known that the word “accept” intrinsically means to accept ALL the attributes and characteristics and teachings of Jesus … by accepting these as true, it follows that we would obey them as well.

In the same way, we hear many saying in these days, “Lord I give you the keys to my heart”.
Does anyone actually think that Jesus wants or even needs such keys? And, even if He did, what is Jesus to do with them? Does anyone think that Jesus does anything else but “stand at the door and knock”?

I spend alot of my time with Christians and those who sincerely desire after the Gospel too. But never in my wildest imaginings have I ever had anyone interrupt my thought with such a nit-picking question as what was presented here.

[Dunno]

Quote (Woutlaw @ July 07 2006,21:02)

I am after God's truth and his truth only. If “praying Jesus into your heart” is scriptural, then amen, I will gladly accept this and admit my error.

Hi! WL

I do not believe that the phrase “accept Jesus into your heart” originated with my particular Post.

I do believe the particular phrase may have been inadvertently framed by Nick in his attempt to question what was originally stated by myself as merely, “accepting Jesus”.

Evidently, Nick's Doctrinal-Lie-Detector tilted a bit with my choice of words.

My apologies.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Dunno @ July 08 2006,02:26)

Quote (Woutlaw @ July 07 2006,21:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2006,01:41) Hi dunno, So where is “accepting Jesus ” written in the Word?  Does it mean believe? Does it save someone without repentance? Is this a new way? Your words “When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.” amen Nick, And that's the thing I keep hanging up on is the “accepting Christ into your heart” or “praying Jesus into your heart” thing. I just don't see this in scripture. Can any of you guys give me some scriptures to validate this practice? seriously, i'm not being sarcastic in any sense !!!! Hi! I apologize for failing to detect the lawyers and scribes from among us … those who would set aside the fundamental truth intended because of the lack of refined words. When I mentioned the phrase, “accept Jesus” … anyone sincerely reading it would have known that the word “accept” intrinsically means to accept ALL the attributes and characteristics and teachings of Jesus … by accepting these as true, it follows that we would obey them as well. In the same way, we hear many saying in these days, “Lord I give you the keys to my heart”. Does anyone actually think that Jesus wants or even needs such keys? And, even if He did, what is Jesus to do with them? Does anyone think that Jesus does anything else but “stand at the door and knock”? I spend alot of my time with Christians and those who sincerely desire after the Gospel too. But never in my wildest imaginings have I ever had anyone interrupt my thought with such a nit-picking question as what was presented here.

Hi dunno,
Please carry on and show us where this practice is taught by Jesus or the apostlea, or obeyed by the obedient servants of Acts. If there is another way into the kingdom except through the gate of Christ we need to know about it and see it written.

You may be from a doctrinal milieau where what is written is not considered that important but here we serve Christ and try teachings according to what is written, because that is the truth that we can depend on.

It is a serious matter preaching salvation as those who hear you may be at risk of missing the truth if one does not treat the precious words with respect. We do encourage care in this matter as the millstone is a heavy thing around the neck.

It would be sad to be found to have climbed in by some other means, to not be wearing the wedding clothes or to be numbered among those who cry
“Lord.Lord ”
but are not known by him.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Scripture iis our guide in these matters.
Scripture says
” What is born of flesh is flesh”
It does not say
” What is born of water is flesh”
and we should not presume a new use of scriptural analogy about water if the Spirit has never described being born naturally as being born of water.

“Every truth is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses”

and this verse has none to witness it as read in the way you relate
.
Besides what point is there telling any natural being he must be born naturally? It is an unnecessary and useless statement when spoken to the living. Scripture is entirely efficient and does not waste words.

You say
“Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Unless a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God”, (John 3:5). Water is an element of the earth; out of it the first Creation was born. “An earth formed out of water and by means of water”, (2Peter 3:5 & Gen 1:2). Natural man, during the time he is in his mother's womb, is also surrounded by water.

In the first Creation, the visible is dominant and in the second the invisible. First of all man has to be born in the natural way and develop and then he can be born in the supernatural way. “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual”, (1Cor 15:46). The teaching of the assumed new birth, which has as a consequence that a child can be born again before it is born in the natural way, is therefore unbiblical. “Just as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven”, (1Cor 15:49). By virtue of the new birth we are able to become conformed to the image of the Son, (Rom 8:29).

We see that the natural birth takes place out of water. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”. New birth takes place out of the Spirit. “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit”, (John 3:6). The last Adam became “a life-giving Spirit” (1Cor 15:45″

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
The circumcision of Christ is indeed linked with death and new life. Baptism in water is linked with that circumcision.
Rom 6.3
“Or do you not know that all of us who have been bapotised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into his death.?Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death..”

Coll2.9
“For in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in him you have been made complete, and he is the head over every rule and authority, and in him you were also coircumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, you were also raised up with him through faith in the working of God.

Your words
“After the circumcision and resurrection to new life, a person has not simply become a child of God but he is also included in the body of Christ, that is the church. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1Cor 12:13). For this reason also we have the expression: “the circumcision of Christ”. The result of this circumcision is that the new man, like a living cell, takes up his place in the mystical body of Christ. Also in the New Covenant the seed of Abraham is circumcised. This seed is Christ, and all those who are in Christ, (Gal 3:16-29).”

[seminarian]

Here, here Nick & T8!

We do what we can but I know God puts us in places to let the light shine.  If we are going to be cowards and not speak the truth, what good are we to God and His Son Jesus?

You can put the truth out there but pride which is Satan's blindfold, will keep people from seeing it.  Remember I asked the Pastor of Education if Jesus has a God?  He wouldn't answer at first then I asked him again.  Do you know he said “No”?  What??  He said all those scriptures about Jesus calling the Father, his God were from his years on earth as a man.  Really?  Well,  I quickly took him to:

Revelation 1:6 (English-NIV)
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

And….

Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV)
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Uh huh, and he is still calling God, his GOD and his Father!  Now what's up with that?  I told Pastor o' Education, in matters like this, I'll go with what the Bible actually said.  Lord help me.

If the teachers are this messed up, what about the congregation?  I feel so sorry for people who really do not know the ONE true God, not some fictional triune thing that nobody can understand therefore they cannot worship.  This is exactly what Satan wants.

I'm about ready to yell, “Check please!”  I want to finish the Minister Cert. course I signed up for and I enjoy helping people at that church.  I'm an alter worker and part of the intecessory prayer team.  I also minister with them when they go to nursing homes.   Once I'm ordained, I will just tell them I need to spend more time in my own ministry and leave.  Are there any Christian Unitarian fellowships in the USA, specifically the New York area?  I am not interested in the Unitarian Universalists but fellowships that believe in the Bible the way you both do.  Any ideas?  Even if I went once a month it would be worth it.  The problem I've found is the worship and prayer is usually pretty lame in some of these groups.  For example I served a very small home fellowship of Biblical Unitarians.  They didn't want to sing or worship and seemed to lack respect for the Word.  Everything was VERY mechanical with them and they worship Wierwille.  No, I want people on fire for God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks guys for letting me vent!

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi semmy,
Vent away.
We do not label ourselves as unitarian or anything else. We belong to God in Jesus. Labels isolate some people from us, and if they draw people to us they are not seeking the Lord but a denomination. Again you can find yourself trying to build on someone else's false foundation.
Walk in the Spirit and feed on the word and God can use you anywhere to be a light. Whether you know it or not others sense the Spirit and if they are of God they draw to you and if not they are repulsed …as with a magnet.
Paul had no denomination and fellowshiped only as led by the Lord. God knows those who are His. The World likes us put in neat boxes but God's Spirit blows where He will.

We tell others as best we can what is written. If they are of God they listen. If they are not of the Lord but only religious we come under attack.

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seminarian @ July 08 2006,05:41)

Here, here Nick & T8! We do what we can but I know God puts us in places to let the light shine.  If we are going to be cowards and not speak the truth, what good are we to God and His Son Jesus? You can put the truth out there but pride which is Satan's blindfold, will keep people from seeing it.  Remember I asked the Pastor of Education if Jesus has a God?  He wouldn't answer at first then I asked him again.  Do you know he said “No”?  What??  He said all those scriptures about Jesus calling the Father, his God were from his years on earth as a man.  Really?  Well,  I quickly took him to: Revelation 1:6 (English-NIV) and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. And…. Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV) Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. Uh huh, and he is still calling God, his GOD and his Father!  Now what's up with that?  I told Pastor o' Education, in matters like this, I'll go with what the Bible actually said.  Lord help me. If the teachers are this messed up, what about the congregation?  I feel so sorry for people who really do not know the ONE true God, not some fictional triune thing that nobody can understand therefore they cannot worship.  This is exactly what Satan wants. I'm about ready to yell, “Check please!”  I want to finish the Minister Cert. course I signed up for and I enjoy helping people at that church.  I'm an alter worker and part of the intecessory prayer team.  I also minister with them when they go to nursing homes.   Once I'm ordained, I will just tell them I need to spend more time in my own ministry and leave.  Are there any Christian Unitarian fellowships in the USA, specifically the New York area?  I am not interested in the Unitarian Universalists but fellowships that believe in the Bible the way you both do.  Any ideas?  Even if I went once a month it would be worth it.  The problem I've found is the worship and prayer is usually pretty lame in some of these groups.  For example I served a very small home fellowship of Biblical Unitarians.  They didn't want to sing or worship and seemed to lack respect for the Word.  Everything was VERY mechanical with them and they worship Wierwille.  No, I want people on fire for God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thanks guys for letting me vent! Semmy

Exhale my brother,

I love to hear those who bear the truth and are on fire for God. Vent on my brother, I pray for you often.

God Bless

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Dunno @ July 08 2006,02:46)

Quote (Woutlaw @ July 07 2006,21:02) I am after God's truth and his truth only. If “praying Jesus into your heart” is scriptural, then amen, I will gladly accept this and admit my error. Hi! WL I do not believe that the phrase “accept Jesus into your heart” originated with my particular Post. I do believe the particular phrase may have been inadvertently framed by Nick in his attempt to question what was originally stated by myself as merely, “accepting Jesus”. Evidently, Nick's Doctrinal-Lie-Detector tilted a bit with my choice of words. My apologies.

Dunno,

If “Accepting Christ” = believing Jesus is the Christ+repenting+obeying his commands and teachings, then I have no problem with it at all.

But if “Accepting Christ” = saying a prayer (sinner's prayer), I have a major problem with it.

[seminarian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2006,06:00)

Hi semmy, Vent away. We do not label ourselves as unitarian or anything else. We belong to God in Jesus. Labels isolate some people from us, and if they draw people to us they are not seeking the Lord but a denomination. Again you can find yourself trying to build on someone else's false foundation. Walk in the Spirit and feed on the word and God can use you anywhere to be a light. Whether you know it or not others sense the Spirit and if they are of God they draw to you and if not they are repulsed …as with a magnet. Paul had no denomination and fellowshiped only as led by the Lord. God knows those who are His. The World likes us put in neat boxes but God's Spirit blows where He will. We tell others as best we can what is written. If they are of God they listen. If they are not of the Lord but only religious we come under attack.

Thank's Woutlaw and Nick,

Nick, very good point. I know God can use us anywhere to be light. I think it was God who got that Pastor of Ed. to approach ME really for no good reason and then be told the truth of who God our Father and His Son Jesus really are.

Still I would enjoy to go to a conference or convention from time to time with sane people who are not weighed down by these false doctrines.

Yeah, when the church I serve wanted me to join, I gave them the Paul discourse too! I said he didn't join churches, he started communities of believers. God has called me to do the same.

So today in church, the Pastor o' Ed arrives LATE to the platform when we just had a reminder last Sunday not to arrive late! Other than that, he seemed no worse for wear after being told what he didn't want to hear from the scriptures, that Jesus our Lord HAS A GOD. As I said, I am an alter worker and a prayer intecessor, so I was annointing and praying for people during the service but today, I had a confidence and authority I have not noticed before. Can't explain it.

After the service, the pastor who is teaching the Minister Certification class, asked me to assist him in preparing the study materials for this Wednesday's class. Really? Non-trinitarian me? He showed me what to do and walked away…now that's trust!

Once I obtain my license to preach, (this is really needed if you go to jails and hospitals especially), and ordination, I intend to spend less time in the pews and more in the ministry. The bottom line is that I can't be responsible for what the pastor o' ed believes, only what I do. Now they REALLY know what I think and have not asked me to leave, I may stay on by on a limited basis. My focus has to be on the ministry GOD has given me. There may be hope but my call is to preach, not warm a pew!

Woutlaw, I can empathize with what you went through and I'm praying for you also. Well, I have a church service to do today, (afterall it IS Sunday!) Pray for God's message to be spoken through my sermon. It is on being an Adopted Son and Daughter in the Kingdom of God.

Bless ya',

Semmy

[kenrch]

Qyestion: What is the “sinners” prayer for?

What do scriptures like this mean?

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; “and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”.

Don't you have to confess Jesus before baptism?

And Again if something should happen and you can't get to water then are your doomed? That is so ridiculous it isn't even funny!

I'll stick with scripture: “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”:

If you can get baptized and don't then that is a different matter. But if you cannot, through no fault of your own, and the flesh perishes, then that soul will be with GOD!

You don't know the heart of ANYONE only God knows that.

This isn't my opinion it's scripture: believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

Don't argue with me (I'm just a servant) argue with the Word of God.
Again If your son (and I'll bet that it happens) accepted Christ, was in an accident and died. If it were left up to you! Would your son go to hell?

You may say yes but if it would happen then that would be another story! I guarantee it!

It's always easy to holler while on the other side of the wall! But just wait until the door opens.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
The book of Romans was written to those who had already been through the gate.[Rom 1]
Romans 10 is thus not another way to enter and to bypass that gate.
Those who enter by other means are thieves and robbers.[Jn 10]

[Woutlaw]

Quote (kenrch @ July 09 2006,18:34)

Qyestion: What is the “sinners” prayer for? What do scriptures like this mean? Rom 10:9  because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:  for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; “and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”. Don't you have to confess Jesus before baptism? And Again if something should happen and you can't get to water then are your doomed?  That is so ridiculous it isn't even funny! I'll stick with scripture:   “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”: If you can get baptized and don't then that is a different matter.  But if you cannot, through no fault of your own, and the flesh perishes, then that soul will be with GOD! You don't know the heart of ANYONE only God knows that. This isn't my opinion it's scripture:   believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Don't argue with me (I'm just a servant) argue with the Word of God.   Again If your son (and I'll bet that it happens) accepted Christ, was in an accident and died. If it were left up to you! Would your son go to hell? You may say yes but if it would happen then that would be another story!  I guarantee it! It's always easy to holler while on the other side of the wall!  But just wait until the door opens.

kenrch,

I will address the scriptures from my humble understanding.

#1, Nick hit the nail on the head, Romans was written to a body of believers not unbelievers.

Romans 10:9 is one of the most abused scriptures of all time.

It says, “that if you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL be or SHALL be saved.

It doesn't say you ARE saved.

WILL or SHALL BE implies future tense as in a promise of something.

Many who abuse this scripture also fail to quote verse 10, which states, “for with the heart man believes UNTO righteousness.

This means that a believing heart leads TO righteousness.

Let's read the rest, “and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation.

This means that the Good confession, That Jesus is Lord, leads TO salvation.

On the other hand, let me address a scripture commonly abused by those who say that water baptism saves.

Mark 16:16 says, “Whoever believes and is baptized WILL BE saved, but he that believes not stands codemned.

just because one believes and is immersed, doesn't mean that he is saved. It says WILL BE, again implying future tense as in a promise.

This passage also seems to tie a link between belief and baptism. It's as if they go hand in hand. WATER BAPTISM doesn't save us but it is commanded by the Lord Jesus and his apostles. If we truly have REAL SAVING FAITH, WE WILL OBEY PERIOD. REAL SAVING FAITH AND OBEDIENCE ARE ONE. THEY GO HAND IN HAND.

“Whoever believes not stands condemned”. To this I say amen
because if true faith and obedience are one, then no faith =nofaith +no obedience. This is why you don't see the word “baptized” in the second half of this passage.

My brothers, it is TRUE FAITH THAT WILL SAVE US.

TRUE FAITH OBEYS
TRUE FAITH ENDURES HARDSHIPS, TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS.
TRUE FAITH WORKS
TRUE FAITH ISN'T JUST VERBAL OR MENTAL, IT IS VISIBLE.

TRUE FAITH IS NOT “PRAYING JESUS INTO YOUR HEART”
TRUE FAITH IS NOT JUST GETTING IMMERSED OR DIPPED
TRUE FAITH IS NOT GIVING 10% OF YOUR SALARY
TRUE FAITH IS NOT WARMING A CHURCH PEW EVERY SUNDAY
TRUE FAITH IS NOT BELIEVING IN A TRINITY
TRUE FAITH IS NOT JUST BELIEVING IN GOD

The multitudes believed in Jesus, they saw the miracles that God did through him. They followed him all over the place. But when he taught them about the cost of following him, what did they say? “This is a hard teaching, who can follow it.” Then they abandoned him. They didn't have TRUE FAITH

The bible tell us that the all of Judea and all the region around Jordan, came to be baptized by John, and CONFESSED their sins. Yet in Act 1:15, it tells us that the # of believers was 120!!!!! What happened to all of those others???
They didn't have TRUE FAITH

What about those of whom Jesus talked about in Matthew 7:21-22. “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kindgom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day (The day of the Lord) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in your name done many marvelous works?

Prophesy, casting out demons, and doing marvelous works (including miracles), guys these were the signs that were to follow the believers !!!!!!

And then our Lord Jesus drops the bomb on them. “I never know you, away from me you doers of INIQUITY !!!!!!! WOW
They didn't have TRUE FAITH

I'm starting to understand the passage that says “Many are called but few are chosen.”

May we be among those found faithful, may we be in that #, when the saints go marching in.

Shalom

[Proclaimer]

Good one Woutlaw.

[kenrch]

Brothers and Sisters,

I choose this from withoutlaw because it covers Nick's statement also:
1, Nick hit the nail on the head, Romans was written to a body of believers not unbelievers

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for “THEM”, ” THAT THEY MAY BE SAVED”.

*Sounds like Paul is speaking to believers ABOUT UNBELIEVERS who need to be saved

Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Doesn't sound like the people that Paul is speaking of are already saved to me. May be the people he is speaking TOO but NOT the people he is speaking OF.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Read ALL the above scriptures

It says, “that if you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL be or SHALL be saved.

IF you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart you SHALL be saved.
Notice the word “IF” which means “you haven't yet” “but IF you do” you shall be saved.

I believe we should NO make that need to be baptized but I'm not going to make Jehovah a monster like the jews who if you went so far on the Sabbath then you were doomed!

Jehovah IS love! No one has a GREATER love than Jesus Christ! I know that IF my son whom I have been praying for and the LORD sends an angel to save him and something happen then “MY SON IS SAVED”! He cannot get to water to be baptized “MY SON IS SAVED!

But you say that YOUR SON is not saved because of the “LETTER”. Sounds like Pharsees! Jesus said “it's not what goes in the mouth but what comes out of your mouth that defiles the man”. If you listen real hard you will here Jesus say “It's Not the WATER that saves it's the HEART! Amen!!!!!!!!

Please the word SHALL. Where does it say that when you are baptized you “ARE” saved?

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same Shall be saved.

Jesus did away with the letter of the Law. Now the Law is written on our heart. We don't go directly to scripture to see if stealing is wrong. We know it is written on our heart. Well it is what is in the heart that saves NOT the Water.

Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

The Gentiles didn't know the “letter” of the Law. But they knew what was wrong! It was written in their hearts not on paper.

Say what you will. But I ask, would you refuse your son salvation?

[NickHassan]

Hi H,
Mk 10 38f
“You don't know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”
“We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with,”

So this is another fourth baptism to go with the three of John, Water and the Spirit.

It is Jesus predicting his martyr's death for himself. Not only his own but he predicts a similar fate for those listeners who confidently claim they can face it. They too will face the same baptism. Now we are not baptised into their blood I am sure you will agree.

So this baptism of Jesus is what he must endure, and we are sprinkled with the separated blood of that sacrifice, just as the blood of the lamb was sprinkled on the lintels, and on the book and on the people of the Old Testament.

[NickHassan]

topical

[kenrch]

“Hi kenrch,
1 Peter 3
” 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ”

Not cleaning like bathing but baptism into Jesus.  What does the water represent?  What does the wine repersent?

When one confess with the heart does he have a good conscience?  What happens when he confesses to believe Jesus?  What happens when one is dunked in water?

Rom 10:9  because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10  for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul here is speaking to believers about unbelievers, so don't try to twist the scripture.  Let's just read it then add other (scriptures) pieces of the puzzle.  Water baptism a public out pour of the heart to believers and unbelievers a like that you have accepted Christ.  There is no literal blood for you to be dunked in.  There is no literal blood for you to drink.  It is a show of your heart.  “Spiritually” if you have confessed with your mouth then you have been saved just as the scripture says.

You say we must be “born again of water”.  Where does scripture say that?  That which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit is spirit.  When you come out of the water is your sinful flesh made clean?

I don't want to keep trying to convience anyone of what I'm saying.  If you don't see it that way then fine does that make me more of a sinner because I believe I know what is true and I believe you are mistaken?

If you wish for me to leave just say so you don't have to try and shove me out the door.  This discussion has been going on for months.  I'm not going to change because you say so and you are not going to change because I say so.  If it bothers you that much, and it seems too because you have brought it up yet again, and you believe I'm leading your flock astry then say the word and I'll leave.  Jesus doesn't live in heaven net “HE LIVES IN MY HEART”.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
So reading together
1Peter 3
Rom 10
and Acts
we see that preaching the gospel,
responding in faith by believers
and water baptism are always immediately linked.

Sometimes Spirit baptism comes first [acts 10]
Sometimes Spirit baptism is delayed [acts 8]
When water baptism in the name of Jesus was found to be delayed it was performed immediately[acts 19]
There is an example of absent faith and true repentance resulting in the ineffectivenes of the appeal to God for forgiveness in baptism [Simon Magus-acts 8]

Paul was advised to seek water baptism without delay.

Acts 22
” 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

So looking at the Jailor's salvation in Acts 16
” 30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.”

It is the responsibility of the preacher, then, to ensure the correct message about repentance and belief in Jesus is preached, and when the response of belief shows the listeners are ready, to provide access to immediate water baptism and, at least, advice about seeking Spirit baptism. Only God knows the heart and He blesses those who are sincere. God even provided the water for the eunuch.

[NickHassan]

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