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Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 06 2006,23:40) Water baptism is symbolism. Period. It should be done. Period.
Will a man lose his salvation if he does not have water baptism? That is for God to decide. Period.
Now brother I will agree with this state 200%heiscomingintheclouds,
I never said water baptism saves anyone. I don't often agree with Billy Graham but I agree with him on one statement he made a few years back at a convention he had. He said, “There are a lot of baptized pagans in Christendom.” I agree with him 100%. I will now give you an example of what I’m talking about. There was this Christian woman who was married to a non-Christian husband. She was on him for years about dedicating his life to Christ. Finally he submitted one Sunday and was baptized. After coming up out of the water, he walked straight over to where his wife was sitting and said, “I hope you're happy”, and stormed out of the church. This man didn't truly turn his life over to Christ. He didn't believe nor did he repent. All he did was get wet.
Water baptism isn't an outward sign of inward grace. There isn't even a scripture to even prove this. This is something many of these so-called theologians conjured up to make themselves appear intelligent and sophisticated.
Water baptism is a watery grave. You are uniting with the Lord Jesus in his death. Believing (Faith) if I have been planted with him(through the watery grave) I will be united with him in his likeness. Our faith shouldn't be in the act, but in the power of God the Father. Faith that if we unite with Christ in his death, that same glory that raised him up from the dead, will raise us up also, to walk in a newness of life, Romans 6:1-4.
So we see that through the death of Christ, and Christ only, can we obtain eternal life. AS A RESULT OF THIS KINDA FAITH, REAL SAVING FAITH, OUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN. GOD ALSO PROMISED HE WOULD GIVE US A NEW HEART, AND A NEW SPIRIT. HE SAID THAT HE WOULD REMOVE OUR HEART OF STONE AND GIVE US A HEART OF FLESH, EZEKIAH 36:26, ALSO KNOWN AS THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST, COLOSSIANS 2:11. WHICH IS THE POINT ONE IS ACCEPTED INTO GOD'S FAMILY. YOU BECOME A SON WHEN YOU RECIEVE GOD'S SPIRIT, SEE ACTS 11:16-18. Peter was explaining the event he just witnesses with Cornelius and his household, to the Jews. He told them how God poured out his Spirit out on uncircumcised Gentiles just as he had poured his Spirit out on the Jews. Look at verse 18, “when they heard these things, they held their peace and glorified God saying, then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. So we see God pour out his Spirit not only on men who were uncircumcised, but were not water baptized. God accepted these men before they were baptized. This tells me two things:
#1 YHWY God is sovereign
#2 God can accept a person BEFORE baptism as in the case of Cornelius and his household, and Mr. Nick Hassan.
However in both the case of Cornelius and Mr. Nick Hassan, they both willingly submitted to the command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, thus being born of the water and Spirit.Again, I don’t believe that the act of baptism saves us.
We are saved by grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8.
True faith isn’t just believing in God, even the demons believe that, James 2:19
True faith isn’t walking down a isle or repeating the words of a televangelist and “accepting Christ or praying Jesus into your heart.” Such folly doesn’t even appear in the bible. Can anyone show me the sinner’s prayer from scripture?
?? So what is true faith?
I will paste a copy of a commentary on faith from my KJV. It sums it up perfectly. I’ve never heard it said better.
Faith without works cannot be called faith. “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:26), and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all. Faith must work; it must produce; it must be visible. Verbal faith is not enough; mental faith is insufficient. Faith must be there, but it must be more. It must inspire action. Throughout his epistle to Jewish believers, James integrates true faith and everyday practical experience by stressing that true faith must manifest itself in works of faith
Faith endures trials. Trials come and go, but a strong faith will face them head-on and develop endurance. Faith understands temptations. It will not allow us to consent to our lust and slide into sin. FAITH OBEYS THE WORD. It will not merely hear and not do. Faith produces doers. Faith harbors no prejudice. For James, faith and favoritism cannot coexist. Faith displays itself in works. Faith is more than mere words; it is more than knowledge; IT IS DEMONSTRATED BY OBEDIENCE; and it overtly responds to the promises of God. Faith controls the tongue. This small but immensely powerful part of the body must be held in check. Faith can do it. Faith acts wisely. It gives us the ability to choose wisdom that is heavenly and to shun wisdom that is earthly. Faith produces separation from the world and submission to God. It provides us with the ability to resist the devil and humbly draw near to God. Finally, faith waits patiently for the coming of the Lord. Through trouble and trial it stifles complaining.
After reading this commentary, all I could say is WOW.
In closing, water baptism is statement of one’s true faith. Again, it isn’t the act that saves, but it is through true faith and by God’s grace that we are saved.
What happens to one who turns towards the Lord at the end of his life and is unable to be immersed is between them and God. I'm not the one appointed Judge.
Shalom
Quote (Woutlaw @ July 07 2006,23:44) Water baptism isn't an outward sign of inward grace. There isn't even a scripture to even prove this. This is something many of these so-called theologians conjured up to make themselves appear intelligent and sophisticated. Water baptism is a watery grave. You are uniting with the Lord Jesus in his death. Believing (Faith) if I have been planted with him(through the watery grave) I will be united with him in his likeness. Our faith shouldn't be in the act, but in the power of God the Father. Faith that if we unite with Christ in his death, that same glory that raised him up from the dead, will raise us up also, to walk in a newness of life, Romans 6:1-4.
Brother Woutlaw.Are you sure about this?
I would have thought that all things to do with our salvation comes from the grace of God. Where else?
Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of GodTitus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.Even if baptism is a watery grave, that is God's grace is it not? For surely we will die if we try to save our own life, but if we loose our life for Christ's sake, we will find it.
That is the grace of God to me.
Hi Woutlaw,
I agree.
God saves.
Men cannot save themselves or others.
God knows the heart and God sprinkles the inside of the cup.
If it was an outward sign of inward grace then it claims man is to able to organise God.
That puts man in charge which is vanity in my opinion.Quote If it was an outward sign of inward grace then it claims man is to able to arganise God. Nick you are allowed to believe that baptism isn't a demonstration of God's grace.
I am also allowed to believe that man is baptised when he has faith, which comes from God's grace. I think that the root is God's grace and that God's grace manifests in our lives in a myriad of other ways too.
We are allowed to differ on this. No problem here.
Hi t8,
All is grace I agree. The call and the choice is from God and the grace to obey also, even the grace to walk so we can take no pride in anything but be grateful for the work of God in us and through us. Since it is all from God, and God is faithful, then He will not refuse forgiveness to those who respond to that grace will He?True t8,
there are gray areas or non essential issues we can have in- house debates on, but we don't and SHOULDN”T divide over them.
To me saying water baptism is just an “outward sign of inward grace” cheapens it to me. That's how I percieve such statements. Many of these same people who say such are the same one's that say that all you have to do is “pray Jesus into your heart”, and you're saved. To me that is just as heretical as those in the Church of Christ that say water baptism alone saves you.
I think we need to just focus on the essential issues and put aside these nonessential issues. There are too many lost souls out there for us to help instead of arguing over non-essential issues. Jesus himself said that “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.”
shalom
The baptism post. What matters is that when a person becomes born again, they should be baptized. For when a man is born again, Christ enters into the heart of the man because the will of the man has become submissive to the will of Christ through faith. So why would the man not want to recieve water baptism? What matters is a man is saved, and baptized.
Let this thread come to a close. I sense t8 is upset with it. He is the moderator and we should give him respect if he feels it is time to close the thread. I believe he has made wise determinations in this thread and am content to let it stand.
Quote (t8 @ July 05 2006,02:08) True Woutlaw, Who are we to question God. But God gaves us scripture and he wants us to question and seek in order to learn.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see anyone here saying that we shouldn't be baptised. But I have also said myself that there is no scripture that says 'no baptism, no salvation'.
Instead the closest I can see to 'no baptism, no salvation' is Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.This verse points out baptism, but then says that it is non-belief that condems us. It actually doesn't say non-baptism. For that reason I will not assume more than scripture has revealed.
I know this: That we are to be baptised into Christ and we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is written.
If I preach the gospel to someone and they accept the good news and are willing to repent, I would baptise them ASAP in water in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then they should receive the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. If they were not willing to be baptised, then I would assume that they either do not believe, are not willing to repent, or are not willing to be obedient or pay any kind of price for the Kingdom. Such a person is unworthy and rejects the gospel.
But if that person wanted to be baptised into our Messiah and then he was shot and killed before that happened, I personally wouldn't be thinking to myself, “if only I had baptised him earlier, now he is going to burn in hell”. I hope that no one teaches that.
All I am saying is that it is dangerous to go outside scripture even if it is to be absolute about something.
Yes obey the commandments and teach using scripture. But making absolute statements from inference or example can be dangerous as you are really guessing by observing a pattern in the natural/physical from what you can see.
Sure if scripture said “No baptism, no salvation” then I would repeat and teach that. I couldn't argue with that if that is what was written.
The example we see in scripture is that all who were obedient to the message were baptised in water, even the ones who received the Spirit first. That example is one that I follow and teach.
But I do not see anywhere in scripture an apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, or evangelist who said “no baptism, no salvation”. (I am not sure if this is what you are saying Woutlaw?) But if it was true that no baptism meant no salvation under any circumstances, then the people who received the Spirit of God first and then were baptised in water later (as recorded in the NT) would have been condemned even having the Spirit of God inside them, up until they were baptised in water. I cannot currently accept the notion that the Spirit of God dwelt inside people who were not saved, even if it was only for days.
Of course I see clearly that it says “whoever believes not, is condemned”. So I can confidently say that those who hear the gospel and believe not, are condemned. But I can say this because it is taught not by inference, but clearly. Of course I think that such a person is free to believe at another time and hopefully this would be the case.
Bless you.
Hi! T8I have read many of your Posts and I would just like to say something about your statement: “Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see anyone here saying that we shouldn't be baptised. But I have also said myself that there is no scripture that says 'no baptism, no salvation'.”
Without getting into it all, I continue having the priviledge of ministering to to those imprisoned in what is known as the 'SHU' (Special Handling Unit). These persons are being detained for many years and only allowed out of their 'isolation' cells for 30 minutes a day. Neither do they have any socialization schedule, eg: attending a Chapel Service.
The question of 'water baptism' from these imprisoned individuals who have accepted the Gospel of Jesus has been asked of me on several occasions.
Water Baptism is an outward sign of an inward work … a visible testimony of an invisible reality.
What am I to advise these imprisoned individuals who are unable to attend a proper water baptism?
I simply tell them to confess with their mouth that which they are unable to participate due to their isolated confinement.Quite simply, Water Baptism is a symbol of the circumcision of the heart.
Circumcision was the sign of the Old Covenant which God established with Abraham and his natural descendants. “This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you”, (Gen 17:10-11). Abraham was already a believer before he was circumcised. On the grounds of that faith he had also received the gift of righteousness. He had entered the promised land because of his faith in God, even though he entered it as a stranger.
When Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees behind, he had already received the promise that in him “all the generations of the earth would be blessed”, (Gen 12:3). He had received the promise that he would be an heir of the world (Rom 4.13). The greatest which the world had to give would spring from him, namely Christ and those who are in Christ.
Even if Abraham had had a great number of children, this would in no way have been a guarantee that his descendants would be the rulers of the world, and that they would become as numerous as the sand of the sea. His faith was proved and tested even more severely because he had not a single child.
When on the advice of his wife Sarah he took the slave Hagar as his wife, his action was not contrary to his belief in the promise. The Lord had to make clear to him later, however, that the promise was not for the son of his maidservant but for the son of the free woman. Circumcision was a visible sign of something that Abraham would receive through faith and of which only a small beginning had as yet manifested itself in his life.
Abraham had himself circumcised with his son Ishmael and more than three hundred members of his household. But the son of the promise had not yet arrived. The slaves, and those who were born in the house of their master, would later wear the sign of circumcision as the people of Israel.
This was not in itself a sign of belief but an indication that a man belonged to the natural offspring of Abraham. For Abraham himself, however, it was a sign of the righteousness of faith (Rom 4.11). This explains how a circumcised people did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief, but an uncircumcised people under Joshua did enter in. A circumcised nation perished in the wilderness because they did not believe God or put their trust in Him (Hebr 3:19).
Circumcision was an external, hidden sign. It was not possible to tell from a man's face whether he belonged to the people of God. This hidden sign was associated with the procreation of natural life.
Those who now substitute infant baptism for circumcision accept again the natural line of the generations. Baptism then is a matter of natural and temporary life. Faith cannot be required or expected from an infant who is to be baptized. The words of the apostle about circumcision apply equally well to the sprinkled infant: “If you receive circumcision Christ will be of no advantage to you” (Gal 5:2).
For this reason the traditional cultural churches never exceed the spiritual standards of the old Israel. They remain on the same level and never become spiritual people.Those who in the New Covenant are called “the seed of Abraham” are the people who believe in the promises of God as he did; that is, in the 'better promises' upon which the new covenant is based (Heb 6:8). The first Covenant had a sign in the flesh and it was a covenant for the natural descendants. In the New Covenant there is a sign in the heart and a covenant in the spirit, that is, in the invisible world. This covenant is concerned with the inner man; with his understanding and with his heart. “This is the covenant that I will make with the (spiritual) house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”, (Heb 8:10).
The New Covenant is in no way a continuation of the Old Covenant but it runs parallel to it on a higher plane. These Covenants are like two roads, one of which goes over the earth and the other through the heavens. In the Old Covenant everything was attuned to the earth and the world of the senses. In the better Covenant which rests on better promises everything is attuned to heaven and founded in the spiritual world.
There was an earthly tabernacle in the Old Covenant, and there is a heavenly, true tabernacle in the New Covenant (Heb 8:2). Then there were earthly priests, now there is a heavenly priesthood (1Peter 2:9). There was an earthly high priest, now there is a heavenly High Priest (Heb 8:1). There was a shadowy law of Sinai, now there is a law of the Spirit, 'for when there is a change in the priesthood there is necessarily a change in the law as well' (Rom 8:2 & Heb 7:12).
The Old Covenant was made with the natural people of Israel, and the New Covenant with the spiritual Israel of God. Paul boasted in this regard not in the scar which he had on his body as a natural son of Abraham, but upon the mark of Jesus which had come about by the circumcision of the heart (Gal 6:15-17).
After He had finished the first creation, God rested from all His works and to commemorate this, the people of the Old Covenant had their earthly sabbaths. In the New Covenant God rested from all his works by putting the whole plan of salvation into the hands of his Son. When we put our faith in the Son, we will rest from our exertions all the days of our lives, like God has done from his. “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labours as God did from his” (Heb 4:9-10).
The Old Covenant had a circumcision made by hands, which left an outward mark on the body. The New Covenant has a circumcision which is not made with hands. “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism”, (Col 2:11-12). The circumcision of Christ, in contrast to that of Moses, (read John 7:22), is the manner in which the Christian is circumcised by the Holy Spirit.
The circumcision of the heart therefore is what has taken the place of the Old Covenant circumcision; and not the baptism.
The circumcision of the heart is part of the process of the new birth. Baptism is the testimony of the born again person. His baptism symbolises that which has taken place in the invisible world, that which he has received in faith.
Circumcision in the Old Covenant was only for male descendants, for “by the will of man” children were conceived (Gen 17:10 & John 1:13). The Old Covenant applied only to the natural offspring. The New Covenant counts only with the spiritual man and knows no distinction between man and woman (Gal 3:28). The circumcision of the heart and the testimony to this in baptism, is for all children of God without distinction of sex. “They were baptized, both men and women”, (Acts 8:12).
What is the parallel between the circumcision of the Old Covenant and the circumcision of the heart in the new? Faith on Abraham's part preceded circumcision. The first thing a person must do to be included in the New Covenant is to repent and put his faith in the promises of God. What do these promises say? The answer is: “But to all who received him, who believed on his name, he gave power to become the children of God”, (John 1:12).
When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.
Through the power of the life-giving Spirit a New Creation is born out of the old, dead man. The fresh new life frees itself from the old. The new man has been born and he must be made free from the old life. In the same way that the umbilical cord, joining together mother and child, has to be severed after a natural birth, the old man is severed from the new by a circumcision which takes place without hands. The new man is now separated from the old.
This is a clear sign in the spiritual world that a man has become a child of God. He wears the mark: 'Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity' (2 Tim 2:19).
By virtue of the circumcision of the heart, the reborn man is freed from his old life and receives the power to live in newness of life. This is the circumcision of Christ, for “if the Son makes you free you will be free indeed” (John 8:36). This is the first beginning, but the new man has become a citizen of the Kingdom of God and his name is recorded there.
Baptism symbolises the fact that this circumcision has taken place. The old life has been left behind in the water, buried as an afterbirth. The new man emerges as a child of God, and in his heart he wears the 'hidden' sign of the covenant: circumcision. His new heart is an indication that Jesus has given him eternal life. “Real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal”, (Rom 2:29). It is a circumcision after the law of the Spirit and not after the law of Sinai. “For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in Spirit and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh”, (Phil 3:3).
The circumcision of the heart belongs to the process of spiritual birth. The prophet said to those who were born under the Old Covenant: “And as for your birth, on the day you were born your umbilical cord was not cut”, (Ez 16:4). They were not separated from the old man.
After the circumcision and resurrection to new life, a person has not simply become a child of God but he is also included in the body of Christ, that is the church. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1Cor 12:13). For this reason also we have the expression: “the circumcision of Christ”. The result of this circumcision is that the new man, like a living cell, takes up his place in the mystical body of Christ. Also in the New Covenant the seed of Abraham is circumcised. This seed is Christ, and all those who are in Christ, (Gal 3:16-29).
Through this circumcision of the heart a separation takes place between the old and the new man. The old man had contact with the powers of darkness, which were at work in him (Eph 2:2). The new man is born as a result of the contact between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man. Now we can say: “Abba, Father”.
The eternal judgment, the absolute separation between good and evil, begins to take place here in a human life. Abraham believed that he would be the heir of the world (Rom 4:13). The spiritual circumcision is the sign of the promise of being a child of God. We are heirs in the spiritual world, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17). This is a matter of faith, even though we only see the early beginnings.
We now begin to see the rich and glorious significan
ce of baptism. There is more in it than in the baptism of repentance which John preached. His baptism served to prepare a natural generation for the full salvation which was to be revealed, and that it could not be given to children.The New Testament baptism, which symbolises the separation of the old man from the new, is certainly not meant for children. By saying that baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision, man has eliminated the circumcision of the heart and left those who are thus baptized outside the freedom of the Kingdom of God.
The circumcision of the heart 'brands' a person as a child of God. In the secrecy of the water immersion, the mystery of the circumcision of the heart is symbolised. Everyone, who has experienced in the unseen world the process of repentance, faith in God, new birth, and circumcision of the heart, should obey the call of God to be baptized by immersion in the visible world, so that he can in this way give a testimony of the things which have happened to him.
We read in John 3:1-2 about the conversation which Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, had with Jesus one night. According to this rabbi it was universally accepted that Jesus had a commission from God, “for no one can do these works unless God is with him”. Signs and wonders do not originate in the visible, but in the invisible world. When they accompany the believers, it is a sign that the Kingdom of God has come.
When Jesus appeared on the scene, the way into this Kingdom was opened. The powers of the age to come (the new creation) were revealed. He who would follow Jesus must become a citizen of the Kingdom of heaven. The New Covenant connects in no way with the Old. In the same way that heaven is not in any manner an extension of the earth, so too the New Covenant is in no way a continuation of the Old.
Worshippers at the synagogue of Capernaum were astonished when they were confronted with Jesus “so that they questioned among themselves saying: 'What is this? A new teaching! with authority he commands even the unclean spirits and they obey him” (Mark 1:27).
The solution to every human problem and need lies in the preaching of the invisible Kingdom of God: redemption, deliverance, healing and complete restoration. For anyone who persists with the Old Covenant the saying holds true: “Behold you scoffers and wonder and perish; for I do a deed in your days, a deed you will never believe if one declares it to you” (Acts 13:41).
Whoever follows Jesus must make a radical break with the old ways. He has to take the exalted way, the one in the invisible world (Is 35:8). The Old Covenant was only a shadow of the things to come. Jesus showed Nicodemus this completely new heavenly way with the words: “Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born anew he cannot see the Kingdom of God”, (John 3:3).
When a person turns away from his old way and when he repents and turns to God, God's answer to his problem is to give him the gift of new life. From the union of man's spirit and God's Spirit the new man is born. This process of the new birth means that a man shares in heaven's reality. His name is added to the list of citizens of the Kingdom of heaven, of the new Jerusalem. Only from this position as child of God can the victory over the kingdom of darkness be achieved, (the kingdom which manifests itself in mankind through sin, sickness and death).
The re-born man has no longer a battle on earth, as was the case in the believers of the Old Covenant, he has his battle in the heavenly places (Job 7:1 & Eph 6:12).
Born again man has the invisible God as his Father. He is now born “not of perishable seed but of imperishable through the living and abiding word of God”, (1Peter 1:23). This imperishable seed which comes from the Father is the Word. By the Word the faith of man is fixed upon God, for faith comes by hearing.
In new birth, man's spirit which once was dead, becomes alive. He receives a renewed spirit. God could have directly created a new race of men who would have together made up a New Creation, but this He did not do. God created the New Creation out of the first creation.
Jesus said to Nicodemus: “Unless a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God”, (John 3:5). Water is an element of the earth; out of it the first Creation was born. “An earth formed out of water and by means of water”, (2Peter 3:5 & Gen 1:2). Natural man, during the time he is in his mother's womb, is also surrounded by water.
In the first Creation, the visible is dominant and in the second the invisible. First of all man has to be born in the natural way and develop and then he can be born in the supernatural way. “But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual”, (1Cor 15:46). The teaching of the assumed new birth, which has as a consequence that a child can be born again before it is born in the natural way, is therefore unbiblical. “Just as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven”, (1Cor 15:49). By virtue of the new birth we are able to become conformed to the image of the Son, (Rom 8:29).
We see that the natural birth takes place out of water. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”. New birth takes place out of the Spirit. “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit”, (John 3:6). The last Adam became “a life-giving Spirit” (1Cor 15:45).
The expression 'born again' can also be translated as “born from above”. This can be found in John 3:31 and 19:11: “He who is from above is above all”. “If this was not given you from above”. The word above refers to the invisible world, namely the Kingdom of God. Being born from above therefore signifies a birth in the spiritual world. By virtue of this birth a person sees the things of the Kingdom of heaven with spiritual eyes. He begins to understand how this works, receives insight into the laws of the Spirit and is renewed by invisible spiritual power.
The old creation is born out of the flesh. Mention is made of the will of the flesh, the will of man -therefore of the natural source. As distinct from this it is said of the new birth that they are born of God (John 1:13). The idea of the will of God and His plan is here brought into play.
Nicodemus knew nothing of this spiritual world, in the same way as so many in our own days know nothing of a participation in the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1). The concept this Jewish man had of the new birth, descended as he was from Abraham in the natural sense, was of 're-entering his mother's womb and being born once more', into the natural world; (John 3:4): another natural birth.
The new creation is invisible to the eyes of natural man. It is like the wind: “The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you do not know whence it comes and whither it goes, so is it with everyone who is born of the Spirit”, (John 3:8). The new creation is like the source of the wind, it exists in a hidden manner in the inner man. Through the testimony of the new man we hear the sound of the Spirit. People know his direction and experience his power in the same way as the wind but they do not know precisely where all this is leading: “Beloved we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be : .. “, (1John 3:2). The final goal that the child of God has in God's plan is not yet made known.
When at the time of the new birth the Spirit is made alive, the soul is also cleansed and receives new life. The person receives a new heart. The soul-life is the invisible, natural life. The 'heart' forms part of the soul-life; it is an image of man's emotional life (love and hate, happiness and grief), and also of his will and mind. The soul becomes cleansed because the blood of Jesus takes away guilt and afterwards renews heart and mind.
Now that the spirit is united with God, new life is transmitted to the soul as well. The treasur
e of wrath which burdens the soul of the sinner is taken away and he can now begin to lay up treasures in heaven (Rom 2:5 & Matt 6:20). In this way those who have been born again show themselves in the visible world as changed people. They manifest their changed lives by carrying out acts of righteousness. “You may be sure that everyone who does right is born of Him”. “No one born of God commits sin”. “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world”, (1John 2:29; 3:9 & 5:4).In Titus 3:5 it says that God “saved us in virtue of his own mercy by the washing of regeneration”. Symbolised in baptism we have both the spiritual and the natural birth. When a believer is baptized he testifies by his act that he once lived in the natural world. The water which surrounds him is a symbol of this fact. But then he rises up out of the water. He is removed out of darkness into light, out of the kingdom of satan to God, from being a servant of sin he becomes a child of God. In Ephesians 5:25 & 26 we have: “even as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her that He might sanctify her having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word”.
He who is baptized testifies that he has become a new man. The scripture is true for him which says: “You are made clean by the word which I have spoken to you”, (John 15:3). The Lord says: “You are now clean, you are now holy, you are now righteous, you are now an heir of God and a fellow heir with Christ. You are a king and a priest you are my son and my possession”. The righteous man lives by faith in these promises of God.
So, to those prisoners whom I minister to, I tell them that it is not the ceremony that is important. Neither is it the visible things which occur. Rather, the baptism in water is simply an outward sign where man testifies of the things which happened to him in the invisible world. The old has passed away, the new has come. I tell them that Baptism in water is a testimony before God and the angels, and before men in the visible world, of the things that happened to a person in the unseen world. The bible says: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”.
These isolated prisoners become baptized by the confession of their mouths and without water.
Quote True t8, there are gray areas or non essential issues we can have in- house debates on, but we don't and SHOULDN”T divide over them.
To me saying water baptism is just an “outward sign of inward grace” cheapens it to me. That's how I percieve such statements. Many of these same people who say such are the same one's that say that all you have to do is “pray Jesus into your heart”, and you're saved. To me that is just as heretical as those in the Church of Christ that say water baptism alone saves you.
I think we need to just focus on the essential issues and put aside these nonessential issues. There are too many lost souls out there for us to help instead of arguing over non-essential issues. Jesus himself said that “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.”
shalom
Amen guys.
Thanks and keep up the works of faith.
Hi dunno,
So where is “accepting Jesus ” written in the Word? Does it mean believe? Does it save someone without repentance? Is this a new way?Your words
“When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.”Hi dunno,
So baptism to you is a statement to all that you are saved.Was Peter deceived ?
He said we should repent, believe and be baptised for the forgiveness of our sinsnot be baptised to state we are saved and because our sins have been forgiven.
Why was Paul so anxious to baptise new believers in water?
Ignorance of the ways of God?
or
better knowledge than that which is prevalent now?I prefer Peter and Paul as teachers.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,20:41) Hi dunno,
So where is “accepting Jesus ” written in the Word? Does it mean believe? Does it save someone without repentance? Is this a new way?Your words
“When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.”
Hi! NickHere's a profitable thought:
Why don't you make some attempt to answer your own questions here instead of asking others to answer them for you?
That way some of us might come to understand what your own position is on matters and perhaps be more inclined to join the discussion.
The way it is now with all your many suspicious and accusatory questions, it is not much of a discussion … it is more an interrogation.
I am beginning to suspect that you are finding some deviant joy by insisting that everyone plug into your Doctrinal-Lie-Detector by answering your questions after they Post something.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2006,01:41) Hi dunno,
So where is “accepting Jesus ” written in the Word? Does it mean believe? Does it save someone without repentance? Is this a new way?Your words
“When a person accepts Jesus, something happens on the part of God. Abraham put his faith on those who were going to be born into the world. The expectation of a born again person is that he has become a child of God. Everything which now follows is represented and symbolised in baptism.”
amen Nick,And that's the thing I keep hanging up on is the “accepting Christ into your heart” or “praying Jesus into your heart” thing. I just don't see this in scripture. Can any of you guys give me some scriptures to validate this practice? seriously, i'm not being sarcastic in any sense !!!!
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