- This topic has 4,343 replies, 85 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 07 2006,01:50) Praise God. Thank you brother. Jesus is Lord of Lord and King of Kings. Love you bro.
The truth always stands out.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 07 2006,20:33) No t8, because we do need water baptism. To say that one should not have it is to make God's word noneffect. It does not say do not get baptized. It says to get baptized. But it does not say baptism saves you if you do not get it. Even though it is symbolic, the lord said to do it. Just as he said at the last supper, do this in rememberance of me. Should we do this since he said to or just ignore it. If the Lord said do it, then we do it. The thing is, why would anyone who recieves the great gift of salvation not want to be obedient? If one is truely saved, Christ is in his heart and the man will want to please God the Father, for that is the will of the Son, who is now in the heart of the man.
Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.I am not denying that you belong to the Lord, (God knows) but am I to assume that you are teaching others to break the covenant or command by saying it is not necessary?
Here is something I read on another website. It may be of interest even if only to glean a few points from it.
God Works Covenantally
First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word “testament” comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.
If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, “May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep” (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away” (John 6:37, NIV). And, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day” (John 6:39, NIV). And, “I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours” (John 17:9, NIV).
If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one “baptized into” as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.
The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. “They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation” (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).
Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you” (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God — through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: “In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.
If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. “By this gospel you are saved…” (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.”Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 07 2006,01:48) Nick, you all say it is my interpretation. All I ask is that you and everyone should prove for yourselves all things and you should, for you should take the word of no man. Write everything down on paper that pertains to salvation, baptism, and blood using just the NT. Then compare word for word. Start putting them into groupings. It is the best way. I would rather you see with your own eyes. This study will take some time. It can't be done in a day or a week. You must take your time and go over it many times. The Lord will help you and I will help you if you need me. I am not here to hamper the faith, I am here to help the faith. I love you brothers. I enjoy this site so much and all of you. The Lord led me here and it is such a blessing. So many groups that I have come across are so corrupt. This group by leaps and bounds is learned and is growing in the faith.
Hi H,
We constantly have people on these threads asking us to read between the lines and then we will see what is not true, things like trinity.What is written is what we know to be true.
If you call sprinkling with blood “baptism in blood” you rob the meaning from a reminder to all of the sprinkling of the Israelites and the book and the lintels with blood and confer on it a new meaning scripture did not intend.
So unless you can find your concepts written plainly you should not teach them.You could be adding to, or taking away from, the fullness of the meaning of scripture in doing so.
2Peter 1.20
” But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretataion, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God”t8,
I did not say water baptism is not nessessary. I have said it is not nessessary for salvation. I said if a man dies who was born again, and was not baptized by water, that it is up to God if that man enters into the kingdom of God. For only God knows the hearts of men. I said baptism should be done as soon as possible, but to say a man will lose his salvation if he were to die before he recieved the water baptism is unscriptural.
Water baptism does not save us. Should it be done. By all means. The baptism of the Holy Spirit also should be done.
Will one lose his salvation because he refuses to be baptized by water, that would be for God to decide.
Would one lose his salvation if he was killed on his way to be baptized, I do not believe he would, but that is for God to decide.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 07 2006,20:25) It is Christ who is in us that makes us obedient to God. It is nothing that we do. To think it is us is the lie of the devil. We cannot be obedient to God. It is only our faith in Jesus that we have hope. The more faith we have in Jesus, the more he lives in us and the less self will is in us. The less self will in us, the more obedient we become, but not of ourselves, it is he who is in us. Ephesians 3:17
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
We cannot be obedient to God?2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.2 Corinthians 9:13
Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.Romans 16:19
Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?Obedience is a decision that WE make. We may not be strong enough to do all that God wills for us, but we are the ones that choose, surely?
If it is Christ that makes us obedient, then the disobedient are that way because Christ hasn't made them obedient. Then we have the whole free will issue. Do we have the choice or not to be obedient?
Are you saying that we cannot be obedient or did you mean it in the way that we cannot in our own strength do the will of God?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 07 2006,21:32) t8, I did not say water baptism is not nessessary. I have said it is not nessessary for salvation. I said if a man dies who was born again, and was not baptized by water, that it is up to God if that man enters into the kingdom of God. For only God knows the hearts of men. I said baptism should be done as soon as possible, but to say a man will lose his salvation if he were to die before he recieved the water baptism is unscriptural.
Water baptism does not save us. Should it be done. By all means. The baptism of the Holy Spirit also should be done.
Will one lose his salvation because he refuses to be baptized by water, that would be for God to decide.
Would one lose his salvation if he was killed on his way to be baptized, I do not believe he would, but that is for God to decide.
OK then we are in agreement.As long as you are not encouraging or teaching men to break covenant with God, but rather encouraging and teaching to obey all that God wants us to do, then I don't have a problem with what you said in your last post.
Woutlaw and Nick, GREAT stuff here again,
This part had me blowing out of my computer chair laughing!:
“I don't care if you're a trinitarian, binitarian, Oneness, heck I don't care if you believe bobo the chimp is your God, where you go after you die is between you and the Lord.”
Now ain't that the truth! American Baptists call this “soul competency” meaning that each member is free to follow thier conscience, (something NOT allowed under the Roman Catholic Church), but be accountable to Christ. That's how my parents were able to reject the trinity thing and still be good members in standing. In fact, I never ONCE heard the trinity mentioned my old Baptist church. Yeah!
Here's another key point from Woutlaw:
“How ever the bible does make it clear that we must teach sound doctrine, Galatians 1:8, Titus 2:1. 1 Timothy 4:16 tells us that we must watch our LIFE and DOCTRINE closely and to perserve in them, for if we do we will have both ourselves and our hears. So bretheren, DOCTRINE is important.”
That's right. I believe Paul said keep testing ourselves to see if WE are in the faith. I'm not responsible for Pastor Hoo-hah's sermons but I will have to give an account for my own. This is especially true if we're teaching a bunch of traditions and lies. Whoa Nelly! Weightier judgments are reserved for TEACHERS folks.
Here's some more:
For those of you who believe one can make it into the kingdom without baptism, I got one question for you. In Exodus 30:18-19, God commands that before AAron and his sons could enter into the tabernacle to minister, they had to wash with water that they die not. Did Aaron and his sons sit around and debate whether they would or would not die if they didn't wash? NO WAY, those guys feared God and didn't even question him. Did Noah question God when he came to him and told him to build the ark? If he refused to build it God's way, would he have survived? When God told Abraham to take his son, his one and only son, and sacrifice him on the alter, did Abraham question God? These stories are not written down to just fill a book, but to teach us about how Godly men should live. They are examples for us. WHERE ARE THOSE WHO FEAR YHWH?
Why are we questioning God?
Do we really fear God?
Isn't fearing God the beginning of righteousness?Yes and it's also the start of wisdom too. “fear of the LORD – that is wisdom and to shun evil, understanding. (Job 28;28) This is the problem Nick and Woutlaw. People have focused so long on the babe in the manger, forgiving, suffering, loving Christ that miss the photo shot of him with that sword coming out of his mouth in Revelation. Now what do you think that sword is for? Get a clue. He has God's authority to execute judgement upon all those who do not obey the good news.
People no longer fear God our Father because they have replaced Him with the softer, (so they think) image of the Lord Jesus. In my Minister Certification class last night someone said, Jesus came to show us the softer, more humble side of the Father. Yeah right he did! These people are locked into Jesus' life on earth and are not seeing that he has been made king of kings and lord of lords. That mean's you'd better obey him and fear him as he fully represents his Father and ours in all things.
Amen, amen guys!
Semmy
Dear Nick,
You won't know until you do as I asked. I already said I don't want you to take my word for it anyway. Did you not read that?
We should not believe any man. We must prove and reprove. We must test every spirit whether of God or not.
If you want to know for sure in this matter, you have to put all the facts together. You have to put all the proof together. Just having some pieces of a puzzles only gives part of a picture. You have to have all the pieces to be able to see the entire picture.
That is why I asked that you write all things pertaining to blood, salvation, and baptism and then starts comparing. It takes quite awhile to sort it all out. You have to examine word for word.
Quote (t8 @ July 07 2006,02:24) Here is something I read on another website. It may be of interest even if only to glean a few points from it.God Works Covenantally
First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word “testament” comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.
If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, “May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep” (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away” (John 6:37, NIV). And, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day” (John 6:39, NIV). And, “I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours” (John 17:9, NIV).
If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one “baptized into” as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.
The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. “They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation” (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).
Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you” (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God — through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: “In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.
If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. “By this gospel you are saved…” (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.”
Hi t8,
Catholicism loves words like “sacraments”That is how they justify the baptism of infants believing that obedience in faith by the parents “makes” God cleanse men in their inner cup.
But such teaching ignores the need for repentance and personal faith, and turns water baptism into a magic process done without the knowledge, understanding, will or agreement of the person baptised.
Hi H,
I found the link to the Restored Sacred Name KJV Bible for you. You can look at it on line first. This is what I did myself before I purchased my versions. I have both the Word of Yahweh and the Restoration of the Sacred Name Scriptures Rotherham Edition.
Both clearly identify Yahweh from Yahshua which some will even say was a second Yahweh in the Old Testament. NOT! They also try to say Jesus was a literal rock and a pillar of cloud. Don't get me started.
Here's the link so stop hanging around here arguing, (like me) and check it out:
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/about.htm
Best,
Semmy
Hi Nick,
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,21:52) Hi t8,
Catholicism loves words like “sacraments”That is how they justify the baptism of infants believing that obedience in faith by the parents “makes” God cleanse men in their inner cup.
But such teaching ignores the need for repentance and personal faith, and turns water baptism into a magic process done without the knowledge, understanding, will or agreement of the person baptised.
I realise that such words are used by Catholics, but I wouldn't also right off completely what someone says because I didn't like the way they looked or used words that I hated.When we shut people out because we don't like something about them or the way they speak, we are in danger of shutting out Christ working through that person.
Also you will find that many do no teach repentance because they are simply talking about something else. E.g., if I was talking about the resurrection, I may not mention repentance at all, because the subject is resurrection. It is not to be taken to mean denial of repentance. I could probably find thousands of posts made from you where you haven't mention repentance either. But of course that would be no proof that you do not believe in repentance.
I quoted the writing to show someone elses view that baptism was part of the covenent. It wasn't a teaching about 'repentance' at all, even if it is mentioned. It is about baptism and the covenant between man and God.
I am not sure if you follow this, but I am not sure why you attack something because it doesn't mention 'repentance' or 'baptism'. Perhaps you are overly suspicious? If we were to write off everybody else because they didn't mention repentance in something they said, then surely we would be judging Jesus, Paul, Peter, and others for the same thing. If we condemn someone for saying such things then do you not condemn them too?
After all Paul said in Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”That is one of many examples where repentance is not mentioned by those who laid the foundation. Are we to condemn Paul because he didn't mention 'baptism' or 'repentance' in this instance?
Hi t8,
I am not attacking anything or nor being overly suspicious, I believe, but am taking the opportunity to discuss a word that appeared in your post that has rarely ever been mentioned and is worthy of discussion, in my view.The word is “sacrament” and it appears nowhere in the bible having been brought in by catholicism like trinity, incarnation, God the Son and God the Spirit etc. Sacramentalisation is the elevation of ritual ahead of faith, to the extent that faith itself becomes irrelevant.
It is a logical step to take for an assembly which, like her daughters, no longer has any relationship with God, to offer comforting empty rituals to men as a substitute for life unto eternity.
Yes I agree.
But even those who use such words are not completely cut off from Christ using them.I am a firm believer in listening to people as often times Christ speaks to us in this manner. When we think we are rejecting a person, we may also be rejecting Christ too.
I believe in a fair hearing for all and not a quick rejection based on something we dislike about a person.
Personally speaking I am suspicious of the word 'sacrament' too, but it may have a legitimate use. I do not know.
Thanks Nick
Hey Nick,
I agree the Roman Catholic Church has added so many terms that are NOT in the Bible.
You said:
“The word is “sacrament” and it appears nowhere in the bible having been brought in by catholicism like trinity, incarnation, God the Son and God the Spirit etc. Sacramentalisation is the elevation of ritual ahead of faith, to the extent that faith itself becomes irrelevant.”
What's even worse is that before they would at least preface these doctrines with, “Well, even though the word trinity isn't in the Bible, we think, blah blah.”
NOW people aren't even offered such disclosure. You get, “This is what all we Christians believe, etc.”
If you don't jump on board or question using sound scripture, you are ostricized, (does that mean you become a large flightless bird?)What's next? They have truly let go of the commandments of God and holding to their traditions which are but teachings of men. This, time and again, is elevated above God's Word. People spend so much time worshipping Jesus that they don't bother to do what he says. Nick, you are right. God has left the temple and the worship they offer up is like that in the book of Hosea. Yah said to the adulterous Nation Israel, you can eat the bread and meat of your sacrifices but I won't accept them. So people are indulging in empty rituals which serve only the flesh which has not be delivered unto salvation.
That's it!
Thanks T8 and Nick! As I said this board is WAY more interesting than seminary classes. Sort of like a Biblical think tank.
Semmy
Thanks Semmy.
Iron sharpens iron. (ouch)
If enough people loved the truth more than their own lives, then the works of Christ would be fulfilled. The gospel would be preached to all nations and there would no doubt be unity of the brethren.
Keep up the good work. What we do matters.
The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed.
Hi t8,
I do anything I can to try to untangle still those caught up the sticky web of doctrinal intrigue and deceit, to help free those belonging to God but still in the grip of the sorcery of the harlot. You have done so too with trinity and the gasps of delight of those able to shake off those lies is almost audible at times.But the crafty one has layers of hidden lies and embellishments of truth that catch the unwary and if we can shine light down all her dark alleys more may have the courage to break free. Each of her mind control armaments has to be defused and her ramparts assailled with biblical truth because one little lie can underly a much bigger one.
It is to free the prisoners we work and if freeing them means we have to show them what they love and admire is false that is simply part of the job we took on
Sure brother.
But I am also mindful to not reject someone with a strange teaching. I remember once back in the 80s someone told me the Trinity was a false teaching and I spend maybe an hour trying to convince them the Trinity was biblical.
The point is I rejected this person's message because his words were strange and contrary to what I was use to at the time. He wasn't very good at defending his conviction, so I felt that he was deceived.
I don't ever want to do that again, so I will listen to what people say and let scripture approve or rebuke them.
I try not judge by the outward appearance or pass judgements on people because words they speak may not be in the bible. If they are teaching truth, then scripture will back them up.
Bless you and may we ourselves remain teachable.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
