Is baptism needed for salvation?

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

so they where all baptized again in water but this time in the name of Jesus ;is this what you are telling me ? yes or no

Yes.

but none of them received the holy spirit after that baptism that you claim only after Paul lay his hands on them ,why is that ?

It tells us “they spoke in tongues and prophesied” which a both gifts of the Holy Spirit and such gifts of the Holy Spirit occurred under the Law as well. Neither King Saul nor the Seventy elders were not immersed in water either. They were also not baptized in the name of Christ because Jesus had not sacrificed himself yet.

The Advocate is a new way the Holy Spirit represents God.

According to Paul in Romans 6, the old man who lives by the Spirit was buried with Christ in baptism and the new man who lives by the Spirit rose out of the water in the newness of life.

Immersion in Jesus’ name seals the contract between God and the person being baptized in water.

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

A disciple must believe before they can be baptized in Jesus’ name. It is that faith that leads them to get immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit.

[terraricca]

K

 

Yes they receive the holy spirit after they had the lay of hands not before and they so did not spoke in languages until after the hands where lay upon them,

 

And so your argument of receiving the holy spirit after being coming out of water baptism does not stand ,just has Cornelius received the holy spirit prior to their water baptism , many never received the holy spirit for it was given according to the will of God not the will of men ,

 

Also tell me can you lose your life according to the scriptures for not being baptised but believed whole heartily in God and Jesus ?

 

Now can you lose your life according to the scriptures for not believing but being baptised in Jesus name ?

 

 

 

 

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

It is not my argument, though I paraphrased it, it is Paul’s and it is not after it is the water just as Jesus rose alive from the grave and was not resurrected after he arose.

Romans 6:3-4New English Translation (NET Bible)

3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.

Baptized into Christ is a another way of saying baptized into his name.

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

Also tell me can you lose your life according to the scriptures for not being baptised but believed whole heartily in God and Jesus ?

James teaches us faith without works is dead. (James 2:26 and James 2:17)

Now can you lose your life according to the scriptures for not believing but being baptised in Jesus name ?

Hebrews teaches us that without faith it is impossible to please God.(Hebrews 11:6)

[terraricca]

K

so you have no scriptures ,and yet quote scriptures that are just saying what i say ;

you say;Hebrews teaches us that without faith it is impossible to please God.(Hebrews 11:6)

and yes so ;

Heb 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Heb 11:2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.
Heb 11:12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
Heb 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
Heb 11:14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
Heb 11:15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,
Heb 11:18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
Heb 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter.
Heb 11:25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.
Heb 11:26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
Heb 11:29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.
Heb 11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
Heb 11:36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—
Heb 11:38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
Heb 11:40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
Heb 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
Heb 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
Heb 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
Heb 12:8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
Heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!
Heb 12:10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
Heb 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Heb 12:12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
Heb 12:13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

Heb 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Heb 12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
Heb 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Heb 12:17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.
Heb 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;
Heb 12:19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them,
Heb 12:20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”
Heb 12:21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
Heb 12:26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”
Heb 12:27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
Heb 12:29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

Paul does not mention ones baptism why ? but yet talks about changing our personality and walk in righteousness and yet Paul says he was not send to the gentiles to baptised them ,

you seem not understand what is spiritual of the spirit but clinched to the ritual of the flesh ,God has done with ritual he want us to become holy ,righteous within our hearts for that give him the very reason to save us ,just has he did with Noah and others

you don’t answer all my questions why?

how deep is your faith ? skin deep ? or fully heart and soul with mind and strength ?

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

You asked me if a person had faith in Jesus and who did not follow his teachings would be saved and I pointed to what James said about that issue.

You also asked me if a person would be saved who followed a step (baptism in Jesus’ name) in the teachings of Jesus but did not have faith and I pointed out what Hebrews said about that issue.

Paul was sent to the Jews and Gentile to preach the whole message of the gospel and not just one of the initial steps.

[terraricca]

K

you seem not to address my questions ,only some of them and you use a scripture that really not answer the question ;

you have answered that all where baptized twice ;now tell me when did any of the apostles was baptized again ? they never did so you telling lies

John the baptist said ;Jn 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

now in this scripture lays the truth ;John came with water but never Jesus ,you and your religion made this up ;for Jesus only baptized withe the holy spirit ,this he did in ;Jn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

this is the very truth ;

the spirit of the prophecy must be Jesus the Christ if not it is not the truth ,

so our discussion is over for i cannot see true answers in you yet

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

I am sorry if I am not answering all your questions. If I miss any then feel free to repeat them. If you would please number them then it may aid me in spotting them or focus my mind on answering them.

The writer of the book of Hebrews mentions that multiple baptisms are part of the essentials of the faith in Hebrews 6:2. Paul’s words in Romans 6 testify that both baptisms occur at the same time.

Jesus does not immerse anyone in water as he is in heaven. His apostles immerse believers in water just as Scripture states Jesus commands them to do in Matthew 28:16 and examples reveal them doing in Acts 8:38-39 and Acts 10:47. Jesus sends the Advocate. (John 15:26)

You claim that you cannot see the truth in me but it is Scripture that disagrees with you.

[terraricca]

K

Mt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

this is the scripture you quote about baptism ?

I give you almost all the chap;11 of the hebrew letter do you understand what it talks about ?

you tell me that both baptism are done at the same time but i showed you in scriptures that this is false and you keep repeating it is so ,and yet refuse to accept the scriptures ,so why are we discussing ;?

what I try really to say to you is that the baptism in Jesus is not done with water but with the true knowledge of who he was who he his and who he his now and also that God his his father ,this is what you have to know and accept so that the holy spirit of truth can be given at God’s will not ours ,

for the true knowledge will lead to the dead of the flesh and the resurrection of the spirit (symbolically at first,but later for real)

unless we sacrifice our flesh/sinful in this live with/has Christ we will not resurrecting in spirit later we have to do it now ,(meaning in our lifetime )

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

you tell me that both baptism are done at the same time but i showed you in scriptures that this is false and you keep repeating it is so ,and yet refuse to accept the scriptures ,so why are we discussing ;?

I assume you mean John the Baptist’s words but those words do not make your point. The only point they make is that the immersion that occurred under the Law is inferior to that of the new covenant.

If it is another passage then please repeat it.

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

I read Hebrews 11-12 that you also quoted and find it has more than one idea in it. I mentioned those that were pertinent to the conversation. If I missed one then please let me know what it is.

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

I did quote from the Great Commission.

At Cornelius’ house the Gentiles:

1) revealed by the gifts of the Spirit that they were approved of God as the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.
2) Peter asks if any one can deny them water to be baptized in
3) They were baptized in the name of Jesus.

The baptism in the name of Jesus was not performed when the Holy Spirit fell on them.
It was done when they were baptized in water.

As such Peter and those with him obeyed the part of the his commandment that commands to baptize disciples.

[dwillss]

Hey brother please do not be deceived. Ephesians 2:8-9 make it extremely clear that salvation is through faith by Gods grace alone. Baptism is simply an act of obedience out of thankful for Gods mercy but in no way is it required as this would be seen as legalism. True Christianity is seprate from literally all religions out there because it is not by our actions that we are saved but by our faith and a renewed heart. Do not be mistaken if you have genuine faith all these things will be revealed to you through the spirit. All our good deeds are like filthy rags in the sight of the Lord Almighty this includes baptism. Im glad you got baptized as i was also baptized but i was baptized before i was saved and now that i am i do not feel the need to do so and would rather exercise my efforts in producing fruits that bring glory to his name.

[terraricca]

hi dwillss

it seems right what you say ,keep going in this way you will see the light and understand the truth from it ,

God bless

[dwillss]

Thankyou fellow brother or sister in Spirit. Matthew 24:22 says “and if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. We are in very fragile times with so much deceit infiltrating our churches including the reformed church that i belong to for there is so much focus on knowledge rather than understanding revealed only thru the spirit. Now more than ever we must focus on strengthening our relationship with Christ and his word for we can not trust man but only God. I may only be 23 but it took many near death experiences and losing everything i could have pride in to finally gain Christ in a beautiful way. May the Lord strenghten you and put to death the flesh as we enter in these dark dark days.

[AndrewAD]

Amen dear Williss,

let the flesh be crucified in all it’s vile forms and let the spirit arise as was with Christ!

[AndrewAD]

Is it not almost pagan to say “holy waters” of fleshly rituals saves thee,when it’s God who knows our hearts? is he not merciful,kind and actually has some understanding or is he just a graven image or dead  letter that only kills and condemns based on whims of religious men?

Of course most of you here actually worship the bible and call it god so I understand your answer.

[kerwin]

Dwills.

Baptism is simply an act of obedience out of thankful for Gods mercy but in no way is it required as this would be seen as legalism.

All this means is you do not understand legalism.

Legalism is to strive to do right by human effort and not by the Spirit.

It is impossible to be immersed by walking according to the Spirit because you simply do not have the Spirit to walk by until you are immersed in Jesus’ name.

It is true that faith gives birth do works (James 2:21) and those that believe Jesus is the anointed seek to be immersed in water just as the Eunuch that Philip taught (Acts 8:36). The faith that gave birth to that Eunuch’s works and Abraham’s before him comes as a result of the grace of God. That same grace has been given to humanity as long as there has been humanity as James reveals in chapter 2 of the book of the same name. The choice between living by the Spirit and living by the flesh is instead a new thing . It is the gift of the new covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31-33) Those that practice legalism, many of whom accuse others of it, attempt to seek God’s righteousness without the walking by the Spirit. In doing so their efforts are doomed to failure.

So even though some of what you say is correct you have yet to grow more in understanding.

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

if you would look at Cornelius background you will understand that he was a converted to Judaism /law

That is an untruth since Scripture declares he is a Jew. There were Gentiles who had already converted to Judaism immersed on the day of Pentecost. They are for all practical purposes considered Jews. Scripture calls the Gentiles that converted to Judaism proselytes. (Acts 2:10) Peter even told us that traditions of the elders forbade hum from eating with Cornelius and his household because they were Gentiles.

Cornelius is what Jews today call a righteous Gentile. He remained one after he was immersed in water in the name of Jesus.

[Author]

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