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H,
Reread my post. I never said anything about losing one's salvation and also have citied the thief on the cross as being saved without having been baptised. We have no way of knowing who IS saved as only Christ knows who belongs to him. Therefore the discussion of losing something intangible like salvation when we are not sure someone has in the first place, is futile.
My point is to willfully NOT be baptised is to be willfully disobedient to Christ's command.
As per Matthew 28:19, it means just what it says. It is obvious that we can not baptise
someone in the holy spirit, (that comes from the Lord Jesus). The apostles laid hands on new believers so they could receive that holy spirit baptism but it didn't come from them, but Christ. He honored that because they were OBEDIENT to his words to do this. In Cornelius case it was reversed in order but Peter stayed and baptised them in water all the same. (Read Acts 10:44-48)Now I'll ask you. Which is more important? Obedience or receiving salvation? You see if you don't
obey Christ's commands, you'll end up with the “Lord, Lord” crew of whom he said, “Get away from
me for I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers.” (Matthew 7:23) That group doesn't sound as if they were headed for the marriage feast of the Lamb to me. The Bible teaches that if you know what is right and DON'T do it, that is sin also. “Anyone who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.” (James 4:17)However we CAN baptise in water which is just what the apostles did. It is a physical act of
obedience fueled by faith. I'm glad you agree that we should be baptised however. So what's the problem?Semmy
Good scripture Woutlaw,
The trinitarians tried to hyjack this scripture and put in a phoney trinity scripture.
It's called the Johannine Comma and was found to be a fraud.Anyway, yes, what does the water represent? Hmmmm (Jeopardy Music Plays in background)
S
Why do you say I trying to explain it away? I believe it should be done. I believe that if you love the Lord, you will have it done. But I believe if a man is born again and is not water baptized, if he died before being water baptized, and the man had every intention of getting baptized, God would not take away his salvation. What is more important, the salvation or the symbol of salvation?
Dear seminarian,
I do not believe in the trinity. It is a false doctrine and can be easily debunked using the King James bible.
Hi H,
You wrote:
“I believe that if you love the Lord, you will have it done. But I believe if a man is born again and is not water baptized, if he died before being water baptized, and the man had every intention of getting baptized, God would not take away his salvation.”
Yes, I agree with that! That's good you haven't bought into that trinity deception either. If you prefer to use the KJV you should check out the Restored Sacred Name KJV. It has put back all of the personal names of God, Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc. where the scribes replaced it with LORD.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 05 2006,18:23) That is not what it says in Peter. I believe all should have it done. But to say one will lose his salvation if he does not recieve the water baptism is to add to the word of God. Rev. 22: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Yes I am not aware of a scripture that specifically states that those who are not baptised are not saved. But we are commanded to be baptised into Christ.Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.So it is unbelief that leads to condemnation, not the lack of water baptism. However if you truly believe, you will be baptised. If not, the likely cause is unbelief which brings condemnation. So belief and baptism go hand in hand.
If a person neglects baptism then where is their belief? If someone is killed by a missile but was moving toward being baptised, then surely one is not condemned as they did believe.
Baptism is commanded and that should be good enough if we are obedient. If we are not obedient, then how can we be a son?
2 Corinthians 2:9
The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything.1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.Well everybody,
Wish me well! I just completed orientation and am now officially enrolled in seminary.
I will have my license to preach which allows me to perform marriages, baptisms
and other pastoral duties LEGALLY in my state. I should be ordained in a year.
Praise the Father of All, this has been a long process.Didn't mean to hyjack the thread. H, I agree with your last post. Our Lord is
merciful and we need to trust him to be just that. He's knows each person's
heart and circumstances. Now I've got tons of course work to do. Oh well.Bless y'all!
Semmy
Excellent use of scriptures T8:
“So it is unbelief that leads to condemnation, not the lack of water baptism. However if you truly believe you will be baptised. If not, the likely cause is unbelief which brings condemnation. So belief and baptism go hand in hand.
If a person neglects baptism then where is their belief? If someone is killed by a missile but was moving toward being baptised, then surely one is not condemned as they did believe.
Baptism is commanded and that should be good enough if we are obedient. If we are not obedient, then how can we be a son?
2 Corinthians 2:9
The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything.We are obedient out of love and faith in what Christ has commanded us to do.
I've got to get off this board and onto my studies but these discussions are so engaging.Semmy
I will have to look into that bible seminarian. If only those words have been changed, I will have to get it. Thank you.
As for obedience, it is only God who decides who will or will not be saved. It matters not if a man is baptized or is not baptized if he is not first saved. If God says a man is saved, that is God to decide.
We must believe unto salvation. We must urge that all be baptized. Yet, if a man is not baptized, it is up to God if that man is saved or not. For a man to say he is saved or not saved is to judge. Let God judge the hearts of men. Yet, we should use good influence of persussion that one be baptized. To say a man is not saved bacause he is not baptized by water is not scriptural. It is not obedient to God. Yet, as I stated before, what is more important, the salvation or the symbol of salvation. Let God judge the hearts of men. If a man does not receive water baptism, it is not our job to say that man will lose his place in God's kingdom.
1 John 5:2
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.Jesus came because we are disobedient. We are sinners. We are saved by grace. If it takes obedience to make it to heaven, we are all lost. It takes faith.
It is he who is in us and our faith in him that helps us to become obedient. If we depend on ourselves, we will be lost. We must put all our faith in him. Only our faith in him will save us.
Thank you Lord for sending your son. The more our faith grows, the more obedient we become through Christ Jesus. Praise God.
heiscomingintheclouds,
Yes my friend, It is not our place to tell people where they are going. That's not our role. I don't care if you're a trinitarian, binitarian, Oneness, heck I don't care if you believe bobo the chimp is your God, where you go after you die is between you and the Lord. How ever the bible does make it clear that we must teach sound doctrine, Galatians 1:8, Titus 2:1. 1 Timothy 4:16 tells us that we must watch our LIFE and DOCTRINE closely and to perserve in them, for if we do we will have both ourselves and our hears. So bretheren, DOCTRINE is important.
For those of you who believe one can make it into the kingdom without baptism, I got one question for you. In Exodus 30:18-19, God commands that before AAron and his sons could enter into the tabernacle to minister, they had to wash with water that they die not. Did Aaron and his sons sit around and debate whether they would or would not die if they didn't wash? NO WAY, those guys feared God and didn't even question him. Did Noah question God when he came to him and told him to build the ark? If he refused to build it God's way, would he have survived? When God told Abraham to take his son, his one and only son, and sacrifice him on the alter, did Abraham question God? These stories are not written down to just fill a book, but to teach us about how Godly men should live. They are examples for us. WHERE ARE THOSE WHO FEAR YHWH?
Why are we questioning God?
Do we really fear God?
Isn't fearing God the beginning of righteousness?Look at the faithful Jews in the old testament and the new testament. #1 they feared God, #2 they obeyed God. That is why I believe many of us don't have that FIRE that our first century bretheren had. Those guys were small in number but yet they were turning the world upsidedown. I question whether many in our day really fear God?
??You guys can shoot craps with your salvation all you want, I won't, neither will I tell others too.
Shalom
Amen Woutlaw,
And what of Naaman, the Syrian?Would he have been healed of his leprosy?
To heiscomingintheclouds
Do not be found unclothed at the wedding feast.
God is patient.
He has been very patient with me and has allowed me to find truth after indulging in error much of my life. But we cannot make doctrine out of God's patience. We do not say that because we have not yet obeyed His demands and enjoy His grace and even His gifts and thus those demands are not serious ones.
Especially we should not worsen the error by teaching it as doctrine.
” He sends His rain on the good and wicked alike”
The patience of God does come to an end.
2Peter 3.9
'The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”True Woutlaw,
Who are we to question God. But God gaves us scripture and he wants us to question and seek in order to learn.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see anyone here saying that we shouldn't be baptised. But I have also said myself that there is no scripture that says 'no baptism, no salvation'.
Instead the closest I can see to 'no baptism, no salvation' is Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.This verse points out baptism, but then says that it is non-belief that condems us. It actually doesn't say non-baptism. For that reason I will not assume more than scripture has revealed.
I know this: That we are to be baptised into Christ and we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is written.
If I preach the gospel to someone and they accept the good news and are willing to repent, I would baptise them ASAP in water in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then they should receive the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. If they were not willing to be baptised, then I would assume that they either do not believe, are not willing to repent, or are not willing to be obedient or pay any kind of price for the Kingdom. Such a person is unworthy and rejects the gospel.
But if that person wanted to be baptised into our Messiah and then he was shot and killed before that happened, I personally wouldn't be thinking to myself, “if only I had baptised him earlier, now he is going to burn in hell”. I hope that no one teaches that.
All I am saying is that it is dangerous to go outside scripture even if it is to be absolute about something.
Yes obey the commandments and teach using scripture. But making absolute statements from inference or example can be dangerous as you are really guessing by observing a pattern in the natural/physical from what you can see.
Sure if scripture said “No baptism, no salvation” then I would repeat and teach that. I couldn't argue with that if that is what was written.
The example we see in scripture is that all who were obedient to the message were baptised in water, even the ones who received the Spirit first. That example is one that I follow and teach.
But I do not see anywhere in scripture an apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, or evangelist who said “no baptism, no salvation”. (I am not sure if this is what you are saying Woutlaw?) But if it was true that no baptism meant no salvation under any circumstances, then the people who received the Spirit of God first and then were baptised in water later (as recorded in the NT) would have been condemned even having the Spirit of God inside them, up until they were baptised in water. I cannot currently accept the notion that the Spirit of God dwelt inside people who were not saved, even if it was only for days.
Of course I see clearly that it says “whoever believes not, is condemned”. So I can confidently say that those who hear the gospel and believe not, are condemned. But I can say this because it is taught not by inference, but clearly. Of course I think that such a person is free to believe at another time and hopefully this would be the case.
Bless you.
Hi t8,
Why would anyone deliberately refuse the simple offer from God? The tower that fell on and killed the 18 in Siloam spoken of in Lk 13.4 was under the eyes of God and if they had been en route to baptism I would predict that the God who knows every hair on our head would not have allowed it to happen.He is surely the Gardener that allows the pulling out of plants, the cutting down of trees, the removing of the tares and trimming off the useless branches from His vines.
If the angels rejoice at one sinner who repents then surely God protects His own unto salvation. As to whether anyone could want to be washed and not make it to safety I think it is out of our knowledge and remains the business of God.
We try to encourage all as Paul did in Hebrews 4 not to fall short of all the simple demands of God as the rewards of avoiding judgement and the first resurrection into the Millenial reign are so incomprehensibly wonderful that surely none would risk refusal.Hi Nick.
You ask ” Why would anyone deliberately refuse the simple offer from God?”. My answer to that is because they do not love God.
You then predict that God would protect all who are going to be baptised before imminent death. Maybe he does? If so, then it would be safe to say that there was no one onroute to baptism in Hiroshima just before the Americans dropped the bomb and just before the Asian tsunami. But surely this is an opinion and should remain as one. To say that God would look after all those so that they would certainly be baptised is to go beyond scripture is it not? Assumption is not always bad, but it should never become a precept or absolute for others to follow.
Yes we are allowed opinions and sometimes opinions can be right. But we cannot make opinions absolutes. Is this not the very thing that we have been fighting against with the proponents of the Trinity doctrine. Not satisfied in believing their unscriptural opinions, many also say that you are condemned if you do not believe in their doctrine. Do we not debated with these kinds of people and encourage them to show us their opinionated absolute from scripture. Are we any better if we say someone is condemned if they are not baptised? Are we not also guilty of passing a judgement not spoken in scripture, or going beyond that which scripture teaches us?
The point I am making is we cannot assume something is absolute if it is not clearly taught in scripture. If my last post is read properly it is clear that I absolutely and unreservedly teach that all who want to follow Christ should be baptised into him (in his name). I teach this because it is clearly taught and demonstrated in scripture. But I draw the line at saying and teaching, “no baptism, no salvation”. Why? Because I cannot see it in scripture. At this point the statement is really a so-called 'special revelation' or 'understanding'. But it is not taught as far as I can see. This is my reason plain and simple for not supporting that hypothesis.
I do teach that refusal of the gospel is condemnation because that is something taught in scripture. I am not speaking as a man with a great self-made plan or vision, nor am I speaking as a man who collaborates with others in order to make my words sound good. I am simply calling 'assumption' what it is. What the consequences of my words are I cannot know for sure, but my conviction is that if I speak the truth (supported in scripture) and not promote teachings that are not supported by scripture, then that can only really bear good fruit because the truth will not come back void.
If I have misunderstood something and it is shown to me clearly in scripture, then I do not have a problem apologising in order to highlight that truth and to also amend any damage that the false teaching I may have held to created. In other words the truth is worth defending. Mine or anyone elses reputation isn't as important as the truth.
So unless I can see a scripture or scriptures that actually say “no baptism, no salvation”, I cannot in good conscience support it.
I like your last point because it reveals your heart for people.
“We try to encourage all as Paul did in Hebrews 4 not to fall short of all the simple demands of God as the rewards of avoiding judgement and the first resurrection into the Millenial reign are so incomprehensibly wonderful that surely none would risk refusal.”Yes we should encourage all to accept all that God has for them. The Pharisees were a stumbling block to those who would enter into the knowledge of God. Certainly we will be held accountable for all that we do that hinders anyone from knowing God. Far from it, let us encourage in every way possible.
This is why I prefer to stick to that which has been revealed and/or supported in scripture. I also know that God can reveal things directly to us and he has even done this for me, but such things will never contradict the revelations of Christ, the apostles and prophets who have laid the foundation of our faith. Those revelations are with us today in the scriptures. We can learn, teach, and even rebuke from these scritpures.
Divisions are caused by those who have special revelation or teaching outside of scripture or by those who teach absolutes that are really just opinions. Such people say we must believe this, do that, eat this, or not touch that. From such we need to be wary.
I know this. If two or more people truly guard their doctrine , stick to the truth that God has revealed, and are very careful with their assumptions and opinions, the result would be unity as far as their beliefs were concerned.
Blessings in Yeshua
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