Is baptism needed for salvation?

Participant

When we are saved, we are entering into the body of Christ. We we recieve the water baptism, we are making a public statement that we have been reborn and are new creatures in Christ. It is a wonderful experience and everyone should have it done, but one will not lose his salvation if he does not, but he could. For what new born believer would not have the desire to be obedient after recieving so great a gift? Yet, would God take his salvation from him if the desire was there, but he was called home to be with God before the desire was fullfilled? The thief on the cross was in paradise and is in paradise today and he has not been baptized. To say he is not is to mock the words of our Lord. If a person does not recieve water baptism, it is up to God to decide if that person remains saved or not. Only God knows that man's heart. There are men who have recieved water and will not make it into the kingdom of heaven. So if there are men who have recieved the water baptism after being saved and then fault, falling back into sin, losing their salvation, then who can water save a man?

July 4, 2006 at 6:59 pm#21184

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 04 2006,13:15)

The water baptism is telling the world, I am a new creature in Christ. I have been saved. And just as it says in Peter, it is a good conscience towards God. When we are born again, there is something that happens on the inside between the man and God and the world cannot see. When you recieve the water baptism, you are telling the world you have been changed inside and now are a new creature in Christ.

so basically you are saying that it is an outward sign of inward grace. I've heard that arguement time and time again. So you mind giving us the scripture that says it is an outward sign of inward grace?

July 4, 2006 at 7:24 pm#21188

Participant

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 04 2006,13:54)

Nick, why must you be so difficult. You admitted that water baptism does not save. Now you are trying to say it does. If you are to be a teacher of men, you cannot go back and forth. You have a very loving heart. And you love teaching men and sharing the things you understand in scripture, but if the things you understand are not perfect, make them perfect. None of us are perfect and we all make judgements in error. Thank God for his Son. When I do something wrong, I am the first to admit it. It is allot easier to say I goofed up when it first happens then to wait until it festers awhile.

Please don't continue teaching this doctrine because it is not true. Water baptism does not save us. That is not so. If a person who is saved dies before getting baptized by water, he will not lose his salvation, but he could.

Hi H,
I show you a scripture in 1 Peter and instead of giving us an alternative view of that verse you expound your own views and then attack me!
We have much more faith in the Word of God that in the personal views of anyone and I am surprised you have not realised this as this is a biblical forum.

Scripture says
“..baptism now saves you”
so we preach the Way of Christ.

You say
“we do not need to be baptised to be saved”
and you expect us to give your view more credence?

July 4, 2006 at 8:31 pm#21194

Participant

Quote (seminarian @ July 04 2006,15:12)

Hey Nick & k4c,

Just my 2 cents.

The Semster

Some excellent points Seminarian,

It is amazing that water baptism is such a big topic of debate. It is simple. Paul taught on water baptism in Romans 6:1-8.

Chapter 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Folks, baptism isn't a work like many would say. It is an act of Faith. acts of faith are not seperate from faith. Read James Chapter 2 on faith and deeds. A good example of this is Noah. Noah building the ark wasn't a work but an act of faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is known as the hall of Faith. verse 7 tells us that Noah built the BY FAITH.

Water baptism unites you with our Lord Jesus Christ in his death. We do this because we BELIEVE (FAITH) that just as he was raised by the glory of his Father, we too should walk in a newness of life. There is a promise for us that if we unite with him in his death, then we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection.

Now we all know that Jesus was the lamb of God. He bore the sins of the world on that cross. Then he died and three days later was resurrected by his Father and our Father, his God and our God. Now what happened to all that sin that he bore on the cross? was he still bearing it when he was resurrected? nope. he was raised by the glory of his Father uncorrupted and blameless. The same will be for us, we unite with him in his death through water baptism believing that we too will be raised in his likeness, uncorrupted and blameless.

After (not before) water baptism we are told:

to walk in a newness of life
to consider ourself dead to sin

Colossians 2:11-14 also elaberates on this.

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul also told us in 2 Timothy 2:11, This is a trustworthy saying, that if we die with him, we will live with him.

Outward sign of inward grace? I don't think so.

July 4, 2006 at 8:53 pm#21197

Participant

amen

July 4, 2006 at 9:53 pm#21624

Participant

If you believe that water baptism saves you, then do you believe a man who has recieved water baptism can lose his salvation? You do not know the mind of God.

1 Peter 3:21 tells us the water is the figure of the baptism that saves us, and the proof is because it says immeditately afterward the words, not the putting away of the flesh.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

July 4, 2006 at 9:58 pm#21625

Participant

Hi H,
And the figure is demanded of us by God as a public witness.

None thought it optional in Acts and it was done immediately.

You need to align your thinking with Paul's and not ignorant modern theologians.

July 4, 2006 at 10:23 pm#21629

Participant

That is not what it says in Peter. I believe all should have it done. But to say one will lose his salvation if he does not recieve the water baptism is to add to the word of God.

Rev. 22: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

July 4, 2006 at 10:32 pm#21631

Participant

Hi H,
But you do teach that salvation is always given prior to and apart from baptism.

Such is not written and your stand is on your own aegis and apart from scripture.

Your argument is not with us but with scripture and He who wrote it through men.

July 4, 2006 at 11:07 pm#21633

Participant

Nick, that is where you are wrong. You, yourself admitted that water baptism does not save. My stand is not my own. I have repeatedly shown you scripture after scripture which your ignore. You pick and choose what you want to believe. You cannot do that. You must believe it all. God's word must be believed from the beginning to the end. I have shown you that is more then one baptism referred to in the NT. There are a total of 3 to be exact, but only one baptism saves us. You have admitted that there is more then one baptism.

One baptism is the baptism of blood in which we are saved. There are three that bare witness. 1 Peter 3:21 Ephesians 4:5

One baptism a man is baptized in the name of Jesus. Acts 10:48

One baptism a man is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Matt. 28:19

The scriptures state that it is the blood of the lamb that washes away our sins. It is the inward man that is changed. It is the inward man is cleansed. If the inward man is not changed, the water baptism is insignificant. The man must be born again. Then he should be baptized by water and recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not nessesarily in that order. When the Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit, Paul stated that who could forbid they recieve water baptism. For God saved them and poured his spirit into them. So who could forbid water? If you read the sequence of events, they believed, then recieve the infilling of the Holy Spirit and then went and were baptized by water.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

July 4, 2006 at 11:14 pm#21634

Participant

Hi H,
How many occasions are men baptised in water in Acts?

In which cases was water baptism delayed?

Where is sprinkling in the blood called baptism in the bible?

July 4, 2006 at 11:22 pm#21635

Participant

Nick, we have been over this how many times? What washes away our sins? Water or blood?

July 4, 2006 at 11:27 pm#21636

Participant

Hi H,
Have you ever seen the inner cleansing by the blood of a man?
If you did, did you know that person was saved?
If so how did you know?

July 4, 2006 at 11:39 pm#21638

Participant

Yes Nick, it happened to me. I was saved at the age of fifteen.

Romans 3:25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God's wrath through him.

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.

Hebrews 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offers for himself, and for the errors of the people.

Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 9:22 According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.

1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

July 4, 2006 at 11:49 pm#21639

seminarian

Participant

heiscomingintheclouds,

I hear what you are saying and I've heard this argument before. I don't
think anyone here is adding to the scriptures. Nick & Woutlaw have
done a phenominal job of showing you just what the scriptures actually say.

In fact I haven't seen you post one scripture proving we should NOT be
baptised. If you ignore what the Bible says on these matters, then you
yourself are “taking away” from the scriptures as you quoted in Rev. 22:19

Here's the point though:

If you have the opportunity to be baptised as Christ commanded
yet reject it, you are not being obedient to his command as stated in the
great commission. He told his apostles to go into the world to baptise
specifically. Christ said if you love him you will obey his commandments.

Now what will happen on the day you stand before the throne of Christ
is up to him. We all know that salvation is a free gift and can not be
earned by works but baptism isn't a work. As Woutlaw said, it is an
“act of faith” BASED on a clear command given to all who would go and
preach his Gospel.

Think about this. You are set on fulfilling the great commission, going into the
world and baptising as Jesus said….but you were never baptised YOURSELF?
Does this make any sense? Should anyone wishing to become a Christian take YOU
seriously? Man, it's not about us. We do not live to please ourselves. It does
not have to be elaborate. My pastor baptised someone in the bathtub of his
house! Now that's faith which led to obedience and I'm telling you, God honors that.

So if people are blowing off water baptism because they think its too old fashioned
uncool or unsophisticated for their “enlightened minds”, they are not being obedient
and are not worthy of Christ. He died for us. Getting dunked is nothing compared to that.

If however, they intended to do so but for some reason physically could not,
I doubt if someone would be condemned. It's disobedience that the Lord destains.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, BAPTISING them….” Matthew 28:19

Be blessed and be Baptised,

Semmy

July 4, 2006 at 11:53 pm#21640

Participant

Hi H,
I asked you what you have seen, not what you have experienced. Men have experienced all sorts of things and sometimes made presumptions based on those experiences and even taught others from those presumptions. We teach according to what is written and not on the basis of what we have experienced.
So what did you see?
What does the “baptism of blood” look like?
What or who told you that you then were saved?
Did you burst out in tongues or in praising God like the men with Cornelius?
That is not any “baptism in blood” but baptism in the Spirit.

Those with Cornelius were baptised in water immediately but you did not need to?
On what basis do you make such a decision?

July 5, 2006 at 12:00 am#21641

Participant

Dear Semmy,

I agree we should be baptized. It is important. I am not saying it is not. Only God knows the hearts of men. But where in the scriptures does it say that if you are not baptized, you will lose your salvation? How is it that the thief on the cross made it into heaven without being baptized by water?

What is more important, the water baptism or being born again?

The scripture you cut off is it to baptize a man in water or to baptize a man in the Holy Spirit.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, BAPTISING them….” Matthew 28:19

July 5, 2006 at 12:34 am#21644

Participant

heiscomingintheclouds,

under what covenant was the promise made to the thief on the cross? New or Old? Let's look at this scripture provided

Hebrews 9:14-18
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

#1 According to this passage, Jesus's death was the dividing line between the old testament and the new testament. Jesus wasn't dead when he made the promise to the Thief was he? so technically this was still under the old covenant wasn't it? The command to baptize didn't come until after Jesus's resurrection right?

#2 who's to say the thief wasn't baptized? Matthew 3:5 says that all Judea and the region round about Jordan came to John and were baptized confessing their sins. Who's to say that the thief wasn't one of those many people??

The thief on the cross is a lame excuse to explain away baptism !!!!!

just my 2 cents

July 5, 2006 at 12:39 am#21645