Is baptism needed for salvation?

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2011,19:10)

To all,

John 3(NIV)

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

As Jesus implies Nicodemus being a teacher of Scripture should already know what Jesus was speaking about. This is because Jesus was speaking of the immersion in water that sealed a person’s pledge of a clear conscious towards God which John the Baptist and other teachers of Scripture practiced at that time.

Jesus taught Nicodemus ““Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. “, which is a lesson John the Baptist was also teaching. One must put fruit to their pledge unless they violate their pledge to God; even as John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees that came to him.

Hi Kerwin:

When your are baptized in water are you then “born of water”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 5, 2011 at 9:21 am#242111

Tim Kraft

Participant

To All: Please remember that during translation, english conjunctions were put into the translations by the translator. Jesus could have said, …..unless they are born of the water of spirit (true/truth drink)….they cannot see(understand) the Kingdom within! One way is all inclusive and the other is separated acts. Physical water baptism would in no way help see the kingdom of God within a human being. Whereas, seeing the kingdom is more correctly through understanding the words of God from Jesus! IMO, TK

April 5, 2011 at 9:24 am#242112

Tim Kraft

Participant

One is also born of water when he is born of a woman into the earth realm but I don't see where that would have anything to do with seeing or understanding the kingdom of God. IMO, TK

April 5, 2011 at 10:42 am#242116

Participant

Marty,

One is born by water and spirit, since born means to be converted (see 2b. below). John the Baptist converted people by water and spirit. Scripture attests to that. A common practice at that time which is why Nicodemus should have known what Jesus was speaking of.

Gennao
1.of men who fathered children
a.to be born
b.to be begotten
1.of women giving birth to children
2.metaph.
a.to engender, cause to arise, excite
b.in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
c.of God making Christ his son
d.of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Notr: I Obtained this information from the lexicon at searchgodstruth.org.

April 5, 2011 at 10:45 am#242117

Participant

Pierre,

I pointed out that the disciples immersed other disciples in water before they were commanded to in the Great Commission. There are two version of the Great Commission recorded in scripture. One of those versions instructs the Eleven to make disciples of all nations, immersing them in water, and teaching them to obey all Jesus taught the Eleven. “All Nations include Gentile nations. The second version instructs them to’ “go into all the world” and preach the gospel “to all nations”’ and continues on to say whoever believes and is immersed will be saved…”

Matthew 28

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Here is an example for you of a Gentile being immersed.

Acts 10

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

He we see the Jailor at Philippi, a Roman colony at Macedonia. I cannot be sure whether the jailor was a Jew or Gentile because scripture does not say.

Acts 16

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.

Here is an example of Jews and Corinthians being immersed. Except for the special mention of Crispus and his household, both Jews and Gentiles of Corinth are treated as one.

Acts 18:8

Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.

Here is some more about Corinth. Corinth a cosmopolitan city in Greece has a mixed population of Jews, Romans, and Greeks and scripture does not seem to discern among them when speaking of immersion.

1 Corinthians 1

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

So we can see at least some believing Gentiles were immersed and nothing in scripture states that at any time they were not. In fact scripture does not see a reason to show that those immersed are either Gentile or Jew in the cases of the jailor or the Corinthians.

We also know that both Gentiles and Jews are people of “all nations” and of “all the world”.

April 5, 2011 at 5:22 pm#242142

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2011,21:42)

Marty,

Notr: I Obtained this information from the lexicon at searchgodstruth.org.

Hi Kerwin:

I do not believe that water here means water baptism but means the word of God because if it meant water baptism that would mean no one could be saved unless they were baptized in water according to these scriptures.

Quote

John 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Yet, Jesus told one of the tieves “Today you shall be with me in paradise”.

This is a scripture that supports what I am stating about the water being the Word of God.

Quote

John 4:13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Quote

1 Peter 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 6, 2011 at 12:15 am#242171

Wispring

Participant

Hi Folks,
Lets look at his in context of who is talking to whom. Jesus is talking to a jewis rabbi.

Quote

The washing of the water under Jewish Law dealt with “cleansing” or “purification”. Ceremonial cleansing with water was the “ritual” that allowed Israel to approach God and worship Him. In the Greek language of the Bible ceremonial cleansing with water was termed as, “baptism”.

So Jesus would be talking to him about things he should be able to relate to. Whether Jesus is talking about Judaic law or John's baptism of repentence or a combination of both(The scriptures are not clear on this point imho). Later Jesus say's:

Quote

John 3:12 (King James Version)

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

The earthly thing is the “born of water” part as it is the only earthly thing mentioned in this discourse with Nichodemus.
Which is central to the Gospel of bringing heavenly things to earth. Jesus being one of these heavenly things. All who follow Jesus being more of the same.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 6, 2011 at 8:15 am#242220

Participant

Marty,

Jesus was teaching a teacher of the people of Judah who had in their keeping the word of God at that time. As for those that did not have the word of God, they will receive lighter discipline for their disobedience just as Jesus teaches in Luke 12:47-48. In Acts 17:29-31, Paul teaches the Gentiles that God suffered their worship of false God’s until the truth of Christ came into their lives. Each person is judged by what they have heard and whether they believe what God speaks or not. That is why it is written the righteous will live by faith.

So it stands to reason that one who had heard the word of God during the time of the Old Covenant had the duty to be converted in both water and spirit as that is what the God commanded them to do. If you read on after Jesus’ teaching Nicodemus you will find in the very same chapter , John 3:22-27, that when John’s disciples had a dispute with the “Jews” about purifying they went and told John the Baptist that Jesus immersed all men that came to him. John’s response to his students was “A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.”

Immersion is water is a Jewish purity law. Why did God command his people to purify themselves by immersion? It was his prerogative to do so as he is God. Jesus demonstrated his own prerogative by putting mud on the eyes of a blind man and then instructing him to go wash in the pool of Siloam. He did other miracles without such props but he chose to use those props in that case for his own reasons as those reasons are righteous.

I am only using this to demonstrate that Jesus taught his disciple to immerse themselves in water for the forgiveness of their sins. The Holy Spirit, in its role as councilor, would not be received until after he ascended to heaven. When Jesus commanded the Eleven to immerse disciples he was only commanding them to do what they were already doing. The difference is his authority changed and he gave them a promise that he would be with them always and he is through the Spirit of Holiness.

I agree that with both Peter and Jesus that immersion in water is just part of the teachings of Jesus and you must obey all of his teachings in order to inherit eternal life. Water is used by Jesus to speak mystically of his teachings but it is not the only way he uses water in conversation.
All references are from the King James Version of Scripture.

Quote

Luke 12

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Acts 17

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

John 3

22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24For John was not yet cast into prison.
25Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

April 7, 2011 at 4:15 am#242355

Participant

ALL

Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age

if you read this scriptures and replace the word baptize by instructyou will see it make more sense,

Pierre

April 7, 2011 at 4:59 am#242372

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2011,10:15)

ALL

if you read this scriptures and replace the word baptize by instructyou will see it make more sense,

Pierre

Pierre,

Teaching them in verse 20 means instruct.

I was attempting to demonstrate to you that Jesus made disciples. his apostles, and perhaps other disciples, immersed them. Jesus then taught them to obey all he commanded. This is what he and his servants did prior to the Great Commission.

The Great Commission a prophesized change in the Word of God as certain foretold events were coming to completion. The Holy Spirit in its role as councilor would be sent to the disciples of Jesus after Jesus ascended to heaven.

April 7, 2011 at 8:56 am#242384

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 07 2011,22:59)

mission

Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2011,10:15)

ALL

if you read this scriptures and replace the word baptize by instructyou will see it make more sense,

Pierre

Pierre,

Teaching them in verse 20 means instruct.

Kerwin

there is and never was a great commission ,Christ had already send his disciples to preach and make them understand what it mean being fisher of man ,

you can also notice the refrain of Paul of baptizing people ,this is the reality of that practice it does not accomplish noting ,except division,

and Christ came to unite all in the holy spirit of truth,

now i feel there is nothing wrong to be baptize if this is your understanding and need ,so you may find someone on the road who is willing to do it for you,

the baptism of Christ spirit does not need anyone else ,you just need Gods word the scriptures everything else will come from you and the holy spirit of truth.and you would be free from the world of men.

Pierre

April 7, 2011 at 9:04 am#242386

Participant

Kerwin

wen i say instruct, this means ;to tell people about God about the son of God and also the works of the holy spirit ,

in verse 20 ,Jesus told them to teach them all what he told them to do and observe.

in verse 19 ,Christ bring to the attention the base (the main characters)for his teachings ,unless you know what he was talking about ,how would someone understand why they have to obey his words,and what he commanded to do.

Pierre

April 7, 2011 at 9:51 am#242392

Participant

Pierre,

Your wrote:

Quote

you can also notice the refrain of Paul of baptizing people ,this is the reality of that practice it does not accomplish noting ,except division,

They were arguing about which individual converted them just like child argue about which of their fathers is stronger than the other.

Paul did not state that immersion caused division nor would he since it is living by the sinful nature that does.

Paul stated he immersed which is to say converted a number of members.

Immersion was obviously practiced or those of devisive nature would not have been in disagreement over who immersed them. They would have found or manufactured something else to disagree on.

April 7, 2011 at 3:08 pm#242411

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2011,21:42)

Marty,

Notr: I Obtained this information from the lexicon at searchgodstruth.org.

Hi Kerwin:

I am going to have to stick to my understanding about the water here being the Word of God, living water, for the reasons I have already stated, and not literal water, and also, because through the preaching of the gospel the preacher is sowing the Word of God in the hearts of those who will be receptive. When the person believes the gospel, the Word has been conceived in their heart. At this time, a person is born of living water, and they are born of the Spirit when they receive the Holy Spirit which may be received prior to or after water baptism.

Water baptism is an action showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 7, 2011 at 3:20 pm#242413

Participant

Hi Kerwin:

Also, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the earthly things that he had shared with him is that a man must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven. Nicodemus questioned this saying, “can a man enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born.” But Jesus was speaking of spiritual birth, being born of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 8, 2011 at 4:11 am#242496

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2011,21:20)

Hi Kerwin:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Jesus was not teaching a new teaching and therefore was amazed that one who claimed to be a teacher of God did not understand what he was speaking of.

April 8, 2011 at 4:44 am#242504

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2011,22:11)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2011,21:20)

Hi Kerwin:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Jesus was not teaching a new teaching and therefore was amazed that one who claimed to be a teacher of God did not understand what he was speaking of.

Kerwin

how could he(Nicodemus) have known ?

if not trough Christ ?

Pierre

April 8, 2011 at 5:05 am#242511

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2011,10:44)

Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2011,22:11)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2011,21:20)

Hi Kerwin:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Jesus was not teaching a new teaching and therefore was amazed that one who claimed to be a teacher of God did not understand what he was speaking of.

Kerwin

how could he(Nicodemus) have known ?

if not trough Christ ?

Pierre

The Spirit of Christ spoke through the Prophets, John the Baptist, and by other means even before Jesus started his ministry.

April 8, 2011 at 8:46 am#242538