Is baptism needed for salvation?

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2011,15:03)

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2011,21:01)

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

The immersion is water is for repentence from ones sins.

You can say the words but if you do not do the the associate actions then your faith is dead. James tell us just that.

James 1

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Remember Peter called those who believed on Pentecost to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sin. He also taught that they would be born in spirit.

So is would be believe > obeidence to Jesus teachings about receiving and living by spirit > be immersed for forgiveness of your sins > born of spirit > obey the command to Love as God loves through faith.

Hi Kerwin:

Repentance is a change of heart, and so, no water baptism is not for repentance of one's sins.

Water baptism is an action showing the change of heart has occured. “Repent” and be baptized for the remission of your sins”. Faith and repentance must precede water baptism otherwise it is simply a ritual.

Also, for the ones who are questioning the nessessity of water baptism. This is a public demonstration of one's faith showing that Jesus is thier Lord.

He said if you deny me before men. I will deny you before my Father which is in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 21, 2011 at 9:52 pm#239968

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 22 2011,15:42)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2011,15:03)

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2011,21:01)

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

The immersion is water is for repentence from ones sins.

You can say the words but if you do not do the the associate actions then your faith is dead. James tell us just that.

James 1

Remember Peter called those who believed on Pentecost to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sin. He also taught that they would be born in spirit.

Hi Kerwin:

Repentance is a change of heart, and so, no water baptism is not for repentance of one's sins.

Also, for the ones who are questioning the nessessity of water baptism. This is a public demonstration of one's faith showing that Jesus is thier Lord.

He said if you deny me before men. I will deny you before my Father which is in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

so it does not matter witch christian denomination you are baptised in, providing they baptize by submersion and use Christ name formula,is it ??and so it would be not necessary for one to stay in that organisation right ?

Pierre

March 22, 2011 at 1:10 am#239986

Participant

all

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die,

Am 5:6 Seek the LORD, and ye shall live;

this is a change of heart and baptism of John was for the Jews publicly show that they respond to Gods message.
because they have abandon Gods law,

Pierre

March 22, 2011 at 4:43 am#240009

Participant

Marty,

Sorry I mangled my words but “is” should have been “it” and believe is the first step I mentioned. I did not mention repent as I felt that step is a natural result of true belief. So I do agree it is believe and repent before immersion as that is what Jesus teaches.

Scripture calls John’s baptism a baptism of repentance, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, Acts 19:4. That is because the party being immersed enters a contract with God to change their ways.

Scripture does not say immersion is a symbol. The closest it comes is when Peter teaches that the water of the Great Flood symbolizes being immersed in water. He then teaches that

1 Peter 3:21(NIV,c.2011)

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter was not speaking of John’s baptism but rather of baptism in Jesus’ name. They differ. To return to John’s baptism which is merely a baptism of repentance, the purpose is to seal an agreement between God and the believer just like a signature on contract. Since that is so it is the result of one who both believes and repents as those two items are conditions of entering the contract to reconcile to God on the part of the one to be immersed.

Jesus’ baptism differs in that one enters the new covenant thereby and the water symbolizes his blood which sealed that covenant. The gift of the new covenant is the Holy Spirit in its role as councilor.

March 23, 2011 at 12:20 am#240084

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2011,15:43)

Marty,

Scripture calls John’s baptism a baptism of repentance, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, Acts 19:4. That is because the party being immersed enters a contract with God to change their ways.

Scripture does not say immersion is a symbol. The closest it comes is when Peter teaches that the water of the Great Flood symbolizes being immersed in water. He then teaches that

1 Peter 3:21(NIV,c.2011)

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Kerwin:

I agree that John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus is not the same.

As for using the word symbol, if you would rather use “represents” one's union in the death, burial, and resurrection. I am basing what I have stated on Romans 6 and Colossians 1.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 23, 2011 at 12:28 am#240087

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 22 2011,08:52)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 22 2011,15:42)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2011,15:03)

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2011,21:01)

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

The immersion is water is for repentence from ones sins.

You can say the words but if you do not do the the associate actions then your faith is dead. James tell us just that.

James 1

Remember Peter called those who believed on Pentecost to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sin. He also taught that they would be born in spirit.

Hi Kerwin:

Repentance is a change of heart, and so, no water baptism is not for repentance of one's sins.

Also, for the ones who are questioning the nessessity of water baptism. This is a public demonstration of one's faith showing that Jesus is thier Lord.

He said if you deny me before men. I will deny you before my Father which is in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

When Jesus is your Lord, you are a member of his church, and not a member of any denomination, and so, I do not feel a necessity to join any denomination or non-denominational church. I am already a member of the Lord's church.

I believe that it is important to worship with fellow believers.

And the scriptures state:

Quote

Hebrews 10:23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 23, 2011 at 2:29 am#240111

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 23 2011,18:28)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 22 2011,08:52)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 22 2011,15:42)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2011,15:03)

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2011,21:01)

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

The immersion is water is for repentence from ones sins.

You can say the words but if you do not do the the associate actions then your faith is dead. James tell us just that.

James 1

Remember Peter called those who believed on Pentecost to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sin. He also taught that they would be born in spirit.

Hi Kerwin:

Repentance is a change of heart, and so, no water baptism is not for repentance of one's sins.

Also, for the ones who are questioning the nessessity of water baptism. This is a public demonstration of one's faith showing that Jesus is thier Lord.

He said if you deny me before men. I will deny you before my Father which is in heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I believe that it is important to worship with fellow believers.

And the scriptures state:

Quote

Hebrews 10:23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

i agree with you ,but you do not answer all the questions

Pierre

March 23, 2011 at 4:26 am#240131

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 23 2011,06:20)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2011,15:43)

Marty,

Scripture calls John’s baptism a baptism of repentance, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, Acts 19:4. That is because the party being immersed enters a contract with God to change their ways.

Scripture does not say immersion is a symbol. The closest it comes is when Peter teaches that the water of the Great Flood symbolizes being immersed in water. He then teaches that

1 Peter 3:21(NIV,c.2011)

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Kerwin:

I agree that John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus is not the same.

As for using the word symbol, if you would rather use “represents” one's union in the death, burial, and resurrection. I am basing what I have stated on Romans 6 and Colossians 1.

Love in Christ,
Marty

I prefer the word “enables one's union” as I am convince one enters a contract in order to be reconciled with God.

March 25, 2011 at 11:53 pm#240528

Participant

Marty

you still did not answer my questions

Quote

Marty

Pierre

March 30, 2011 at 1:17 am#241159

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2011,10:53)

Marty

you still did not answer my questions

Quote

Marty

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

No, it does not matter which Christian denomination baptized you in water. What matters is that you believed the gospel and came to God with a repentant heart, and followed this by being baptized in water.

No, you do not have to stay in that assembly that baptized you.

You should seek the Lord's direction as to where he would want you to assemble with other Christians because he will speak to you there, and will help you to become a mature Christian, and also, he will use you to help others there as well.

You are part of the Lord's church.

I hope that I have answered your questions.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 30, 2011 at 4:38 am#241183

Participant

Marty,

From what I have heard a person is considered to be religiously cleansed after being immersed in water according to the common Jewish tenet.

Immersion in the name of Jesus differs in that one receives the promise of the holy spirit when one obeys Jesus' teachings to believe and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of your sins.

March 30, 2011 at 4:58 am#241190

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:17)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2011,10:53)

Marty

you still did not answer my questions

Quote

Marty

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

No, you do not have to stay in that assembly that baptized you.

You are part of the Lord's church.

I hope that I have answered your questions.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty

you have put a smile on my face,while I was reading your answers;

some people need others why ? it is debatable,I do not have that feeling and need.

I have three children and a wive i love them very much,and we all have faith in God and his son,we all have a different level in understanding God word and so his will,
and i can see what my children missing but today they are way over 30 years old,so I try to be there wen they need me the most,those children are not my children but the Lord children ,so this is my congregation,

my son is 46 years old and he did many things that i never did but i always was there for him ,not long ago ,he needed help to rebuilt his live ,i could feel is inside being so dark I told him I help you but you have to do it my way now.

and he ask me can I trust you dad ?so I ask him wen in all your live until today did I ever lie to you?he took a moment and say never dad,and then he accepted to go my way,
He is doing fine for the past year,God is my witness.

so you see Marty my hands are full of work for the Lord.

Pierre

March 30, 2011 at 4:13 pm#241238

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 30 2011,15:58)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:17)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2011,10:53)

Marty

you still did not answer my questions

Quote

Marty

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

No, you do not have to stay in that assembly that baptized you.

You are part of the Lord's church.

I hope that I have answered your questions.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty

you have put a smile on my face,while I was reading your answers;

some people need others why ? it is debatable,I do not have that feeling and need.

so you see Marty my hands are full of work for the Lord.

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I am so happy that the Lord is using you in a mighty way in blessing your wife and your children.

Have you ever thought that thought that the Lord could use you in an expanded role in helping others outside your immediate family?

You may not need me, but I need you, and so, please pray for me that everything that say and do might be in accordance with his will.

Maybe the following scriptures may help your understanding.

Quote

1 Co 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Quote

Ephesians 4:10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 30, 2011 at 4:25 pm#241239

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,15:38)

Marty,

From what I have heard a person is considered to be religiously cleansed after being immersed in water according to the common Jewish tenet.

Immersion in the name of Jesus differs in that one receives the promise of the holy spirit when one obeys Jesus' teachings to believe and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of your sins.

Hi Kerwin:

Salvation is by Faith so that it might be by grace. It is not of works lest any man should boast.

Water baptism is a work showing that one has believed and repented. Of course, faith without works is dead as the epistle of James states.

Some receive the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, and some receive the Holy Spirit after they are baptized in water, and so, hopefully, this will show what I am saying.

You are correct that the scripture states that if someone believes and is baptized they will recieve the Holy Spirit, and so, if someone has not received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, they will recieve it after if they have believed and have repented.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 30, 2011 at 4:32 pm#241240

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

Marty,

You are so wrong my friend. After God cleansed all men the need for water baptism ceased. Water baptism was the bathing ritual for ceremonial unceanness. Yor view implies that men are still ceremonially unclean.

There was only ONE baptism which was by the Spirit.

Please wake up! Salvation is not of works.

Jack

March 30, 2011 at 4:34 pm#241241

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,15:38)

Marty,

From what I have heard a person is considered to be religiously cleansed after being immersed in water according to the common Jewish tenet.

Immersion in the name of Jesus differs in that one receives the promise of the holy spirit when one obeys Jesus' teachings to believe and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of your sins.

Kerwin,

God has religiously cleansed all men. This is what Peter's vision regarding the unclean animals was about. Therefore, water baptism is no longer necessary.

March 30, 2011 at 5:06 pm#241249

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 31 2011,03:32)

Marty said:

Quote

Marty,

There was only ONE baptism which was by the Spirit.

Please wake up! Salvation is not of works.

Jack

Sorry Jack. No, I a not wrong about water baptism. I have been through some personal experience through which the Lord has shown me this.

And, the Apostle Peter was sent by God, and was the with the Lord when he gave the great commission, and so, I will believe him rather than your opinion.

This is what the epistle of James states:

Quote

James 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Water baptism is a work showing that one has believed (faith) and that one has repented, and that one is united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses one from his sins, and not the water. This is not about a bathing ritual for the purpose of cleansing one from ones sins. It is a public demonstration of ones faith in the gospel.

Marty

March 30, 2011 at 8:06 pm#241256

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 31 2011,10:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 30 2011,15:58)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 30 2011,19:17)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2011,10:53)

Marty

you still did not answer my questions

Quote

Marty

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

No, you do not have to stay in that assembly that baptized you.

You are part of the Lord's church.

I hope that I have answered your questions.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty

you have put a smile on my face,while I was reading your answers;

some people need others why ? it is debatable,I do not have that feeling and need.

so you see Marty my hands are full of work for the Lord.

Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I am so happy that the Lord is using you in a mighty way in blessing your wife and your children.

Have you ever thought that thought that the Lord could use you in an expanded role in helping others outside your immediate family?

You may not need me, but I need you, and so, please pray for me that everything that say and do might be in accordance with his will.

Maybe the following scriptures may help your understanding.

Quote

1 Co 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Quote

Ephesians 4:10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

I have helped anyone who was around me ,at work at home,on the street,

but it is God who does the true help for those who calls on his name,

but it is our responsibility to ware the burden of what is coming in contact with ourselves.

and so it is with you and me now.

Quote

see your answer as no really any meaning because it remove all the true meaning of baptism in water.we may as well go to the Muslim preacher and get baptized.

as for the believe in the gospel and repentance those realities will be seen in your actions as you are progressing in the faith of Christ and his father.

Quote

You should seek the Lord's direction as to where he would want you to assemble with other Christians because he will speak to you there

any man can only tell you what is written in scriptures ,only God trough the spirit of his wor
d can give understanding,

the christian churches leaders are so corrupt in there ways just as Israel leaders were corrupt in there ways at the time of Jesus,but not the law they had received from God ,and so are the scriptures of today,they are not corrupted in spirit that is.

water baptism does not make you free of men ,but Christ came to free the true believers from men s world by the spirit of God,so what you do in your heart is what counts ,obedience to god s word is only possible trough the changes in your own heart and soul.
no one can see inside of you but God ,but all men can see your actions and benefit of it.

Pierre

March 31, 2011 at 9:01 am#241315

Tim Kraft

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 31 2011,03:32)

Marty said:

Quote

Marty,

There was only ONE baptism which was by the Spirit.

Please wake up! Salvation is not of works.

Jack

KJ: Just for the record, I agree totally with your truth about baptism. Plus I do not see the spirit baptism as only a one time acceptance. Being emmersed in spirit is a continual day by day learning of the spirit words of God from Jesus. Seeing and hearing through understanding. Parables and metaphoric pictures painted in the heart. Non-literal truth.

Faith without works is dead. But the works done by faith in God are God works. Healing the sick, and all diseases. Faith works the power of God. Good deeds are the power of men.

God bless you, IMO, TK

March 31, 2011 at 9:27 am#241319