Is baptism needed for salvation?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:44)

Pierre, I agree that faith without deeds is dead and therefore to obey the teaching of Jesus you must be a believer before being immersed in water in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.   A believer will obey all of Jesus' teachings including being immersed in water because Jesus is their ruler.

Kerwin

if we obey Gods spirit (will) then we are following the holy spirit and so become part of it as we mature,

this is the baptism in the holy spirit ,and the new creation ,that separate the flesh from the soul (spirit )and worship God as he really his.

water baptism is for Jews and it is done with.(the last ritual)

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2011,20:57)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:44) Pierre, I agree that faith without deeds is dead and therefore to obey the teaching of Jesus you must be a believer before being immersed in water in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.   A believer will obey all of Jesus' teachings including being immersed in water because Jesus is their ruler. Kerwin if we obey Gods spirit (will) then we are following the holy spirit and so become part of it as we mature, this is the baptism in the holy spirit ,and the new creation ,that separate the flesh from the soul (spirit )and worship God as he really his. water baptism is for Jews and it is done with.(the last ritual) Pierre

Sorry Pierre:

You are wrong about this. You have listened to Jack, and he will mislead you. Water baptism is not a ritual, but is an act of obedience to God's Word showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2011,15:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2011,20:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:44) Pierre, I agree that faith without deeds is dead and therefore to obey the teaching of Jesus you must be a believer before being immersed in water in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.   A believer will obey all of Jesus' teachings including being immersed in water because Jesus is their ruler. Kerwin if we obey Gods spirit (will) then we are following the holy spirit and so become part of it as we mature, this is the baptism in the holy spirit ,and the new creation ,that separate the flesh from the soul (spirit )and worship God as he really his. water baptism is for Jews and it is done with.(the last ritual) Pierre Sorry Pierre: You are wrong about this.  You have listened to Jack, and he will mislead you.  Water baptism is not a ritual, but is an act of obedience to God's Word showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented. Love in Christ, Marty

marty

the water baptism and the circumcision are the two practice that are more dividing people into sects than anything else,

if you want to be a follower of Christ it as to be in spirit and action into the two commandments Christ quoted,

you could not show me that it is a requirement to be saved,
look at previous quotes.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Scripture never says that water baptism is just for Jews and rather gives an example of Gentiles being immersed in water when Conelius and his household are imersed in water.

Jesus asked the Pharisees if John's baptism came from God or from man and they were afraid to answer.  Are you really prepared to answer him as you have written?

John the Baptist's baptism was a baptism of restoration to God.   Jesus' baptism is a baptism of restoration to God and birth of a new spirit created like God in true holiness and righteousness.

You seem to believe that the talents of the Holy Spirit is the renewal of the spirit.  If you believe that then you must believe that King Dal and the elders under Mosses were reborn is Spirit as they were shown as aproved of by God.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,22:32)

Pierre, Scripture never says that water baptism is just for Jews and rather gives an example of Gentiles being immersed in water when Conelius and his household are imersed in water. Jesus asked the Pharisees if John's baptism came from God or from man and they were afraid to answer.  Are you really prepared to answer him as you have written? John the Baptist's baptism was a baptism of restoration to God.   Jesus' baptism is a baptism of restoration to God and birth of a new spirit created like God in true holiness and righteousness. You seem to believe that the talents of the Holy Spirit is the renewal of the spirit.  If you believe that then you must believe that King Dal and the elders under Mosses were reborn is Spirit as they were shown as aproved of by God.

Kerwin

what does it mean being reborn in the spirit ,and what spirit would that be that you would be reborn in??

God spirit is power of understanding and could be more than that as well.we do not have power but it is God who do the miracles and so testify that you or we are his worker,

God was and is holiness and we have to become holy so we have to go to him .

what do you think is the holy spirit ??
was John send to the gentiles to be baptized? no to the Jews.

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2011,12:08)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2011,15:58) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2011,20:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:44) Pierre, I agree that faith without deeds is dead and therefore to obey the teaching of Jesus you must be a believer before being immersed in water in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.   A believer will obey all of Jesus' teachings including being immersed in water because Jesus is their ruler. Kerwin if we obey Gods spirit (will) then we are following the holy spirit and so become part of it as we mature, this is the baptism in the holy spirit ,and the new creation ,that separate the flesh from the soul (spirit )and worship God as he really his. water baptism is for Jews and it is done with.(the last ritual) Pierre Sorry Pierre: You are wrong about this.  You have listened to Jack, and he will mislead you.  Water baptism is not a ritual, but is an act of obedience to God's Word showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented. Love in Christ, Marty marty the water baptism and the circumcision are the two practice that are more dividing people into sects than anything else, if you want to be a follower of Christ it as to be in spirit and action into the two commandments Christ quoted, you could not show me that it is a requirement to be saved, look at previous quotes. Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Salvation is by Faith, and so, one is saved because one has come to God with a repentant heart believing the gospel, and so, no, water baptism does not save you, it is an act of obedience to God's Word. It is an outword sign showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented, and that one is united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection.

Sometimes men receive the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water and sometimes after they are baptized in water.

When the Apostle Peter preached the gospel to the first gentiles that were saved, Cornelius and his group, they received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, but the Apostle Paul saying, “can any man forbid water” who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. This means that every one who is a believer should be baptized in water if they have the opportunity to do so.

Can someone be saved if they have received the Holy Ghost, and they do not have the opportunity to be baptized in water. Yes, they can.

Water baptism is an action of obedience to God's Word. Jesus said “if you love me, keep my commandments”. Faith without works is dead.

Circumcision in the New Testament is of the heart.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2011,17:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2011,12:08) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2011,15:58) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2011,20:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:44) Pierre, I agree that faith without deeds is dead and therefore to obey the teaching of Jesus you must be a believer before being immersed in water in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.   A believer will obey all of Jesus' teachings including being immersed in water because Jesus is their ruler. Kerwin if we obey Gods spirit (will) then we are following the holy spirit and so become part of it as we mature, this is the baptism in the holy spirit ,and the new creation ,that separate the flesh from the soul (spirit )and worship God as he really his. water baptism is for Jews and it is done with.(the last ritual) Pierre Sorry Pierre: You are wrong about this.  You have listened to Jack, and he will mislead you.  Water baptism is not a ritual, but is an act of obedience to God's Word showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented. Love in Christ, Marty marty the water baptism and the circumcision are the two practice that are more dividing people into sects than anything else, if you want to be a follower of Christ it as to be in spirit and action into the two commandments Christ quoted, you could not show me that it is a requirement to be saved, look at previous quotes. Pierre Hi Pierre: Salvation is by Faith, and so, one is saved because one has come to God with a repentant heart believing the gospel, and so, no, water baptism does not save you, it is an act of obedience to God's Word.  It is an outword sign showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented, and that one is united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection. Sometimes men receive the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water and sometimes after they are baptized in water. When the Apostle Peter preached the gospel to the first gentiles that were saved, Cornelius and his group, they received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, but the Apostle Paul saying, “can any man forbid water” who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.  This means that every one who is a believer should be baptized in water if they have the opportunity to do so. Can someone be saved if they have received the Holy Ghost, and they do not have the opportunity to be baptized in water.  Yes, they can. Water baptism is an action of obedience to God's Word.  Jesus said “if you love me, keep my commandments”.  Faith without works is dead. Circumcision in the New Testament is of the heart. Love in Christ, Marty

hi Marty

that was Peter saying that;

were in scriptures does it says that you need water baptism??

for the Jews it was a recognition to there condition according to the law so they have to repent,

the one baptism we cannot avoid or ignore is the baptism in the dead of Christ what is our complete change inside out to the will of God according to Gods holy spirit ,and to the knowledge of his word.
this is written in the scriptures.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

Jesus taught Nicodemus, a teacher of the Jews.

John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

Jesus was merely repeating an in idea found in scriptures such as these.

Ezekiel 11:19

I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 18:31

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Water was a reference to the Jewish practice of being immersed in water in order to renew your bond to God.   You thus took an oath to reform your ways by choosing a new spirit as a guide.  A spirit such as the one Elizabeth and Zechariah had is the best that could be had under the law and as such was the goal under the law.

Luke 1

5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.

John let the Pharisees and Sadducees know that unless they were reborn in both spirit and water they would not escape the coming wrath by being immersed in water.

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire

Jesus did not baptize but his disciples did.

John 3

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

John 4

1 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

In his Great commandment before ascending to heaven Jesus was merely commanding the disciples to do what they had done before with one exception.  The exception being he told them to preach to all nations instead of just the Jewish areas.

Matthew 28

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Mark in his description told us that Jesus states that signs will accompany those who believe.  Those signs include the talents given by the Holy Spirit which demonstrate who is a believer.

Mark 16

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

We see from both the cases of the Jews converted on Pentecost and the household of Cornelius that the disciples continued to follow the same practices they did when Jesus lived, even though Cornelius and his household were Gentiles.    We know from other scriptures that the difference being that before Jesus sacrificed himself, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, no one could receive the Holy Spirit as councilor.

John therefore baptized with water, which was understood to be for repentance, while Jesus baptized spirit, though repentance is still needed.  That is why scripture states.

Ephesians 4

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Romans 6

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

…

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

I hope this answers your points.

Note:All Scriptures from NIV copyright 2011.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 18 2011,13:59)

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2011,17:43) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 17 2011,12:08) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2011,15:58) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2011,20:57) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:44) Pierre, I agree that faith without deeds is dead and therefore to obey the teaching of Jesus you must be a believer before being immersed in water in order to recieve the Holy Spirit.   A believer will obey all of Jesus' teachings including being immersed in water because Jesus is their ruler. Kerwin if we obey Gods spirit (will) then we are following the holy spirit and so become part of it as we mature, this is the baptism in the holy spirit ,and the new creation ,that separate the flesh from the soul (spirit )and worship God as he really his. water baptism is for Jews and it is done with.(the last ritual) Pierre Sorry Pierre: You are wrong about this.  You have listened to Jack, and he will mislead you.  Water baptism is not a ritual, but is an act of obedience to God's Word showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented. Love in Christ, Marty marty the water baptism and the circumcision are the two practice that are more dividing people into sects than anything else, if you want to be a follower of Christ it as to be in spirit and action into the two commandments Christ quoted, you could not show me that it is a requirement to be saved, look at previous quotes. Pierre Hi Pierre: Salvation is by Faith, and so, one is saved because one has come to God with a repentant heart believing the gospel, and so, no, water baptism does not save you, it is an act of obedience to God's Word.  It is an outword sign showing that one has believed the gospel and has repented, and that one is united with Jesus in his death, burial and resurrection. Sometimes men receive the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water and sometimes after they are baptized in water. When the Apostle Peter preached the gospel to the first gentiles that were saved, Cornelius and his group, they received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water, but the Apostle Paul saying, “can any man forbid water” who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.  This means that every one who is a believer should be baptized in water if they have the opportunity to do so. Can someone be saved if they have received the Holy Ghost, and they do not have the opportunity to be baptized in water.  Yes, they can. Water baptism is an action of obedience to God's Word.  Jesus said “if you love me, keep my commandments”.  Faith without works is dead. Circumcision in the New Testament is of the heart. Love in Christ, Marty hi Marty that was Peter saying that; were in scriptures does it says that you need water baptism?? for the Jews it was a recognition to there condition according to the law so they have to repent, the one baptism we cannot avoid or ignore is the baptism in the dead of Christ what is our complete change inside out to the will of God according to Gods holy spirit ,and to the knowledge of his word. this is written in the scriptures. Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Peter is an Apostle which means that he was sent by God. He was one of the Apostles who walked with Jesus during his ministry here on earth, and he received his instructions from the Lord.

And the gospel, is the same for Jews or gentiles. I have already showed you that the scriptures state “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, and so those under the Law of Moses have broken God's Law, and gentiles who were not under the Law have broken God's Law. Sin is the transgression of God's Law, and so, both Jew and gentile need to come to God with a repentant heart, and they must believe the gospel in order to be saved.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[theodorej]

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

[terraricca]

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 19 2011,09:01)

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

hi Theo

answer yes, Cornelius did ,but the question is; is the holy spirit the same of what the first disciples received as the one they received by the imposing of the hands?

and what was the first reason for God to give of his holy spirit??

what was the reason for given the holy spirit trough the hands??

and where is that culture now ??

Pierre

[Wispring]

To Pierre,
The practice of the giving the Holy Spirit via the hands is done today in the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints. One must keep in mind that for us it truly is Christ baptising us with the Holy Spirit just like John the Baptist said.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Baker]

All! The water baptism is done today, to show that we bury our sins in the water. To receive the Holy Spirit is by laying on of hands in some Churches and in others by just saying in Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…..I believe it is important to do both….. I would not take the chance and not be dunked under water. We had both done in 1985…
Peace Irene

[kerwin]

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2011,21:01)

Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire….

The immersion is water is for repentence from ones sins.

You can say the words but if you do not do the the associate actions then your faith is dead. James tell us just that.

James 1

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Remember Peter called those who believed on Pentecost to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sin. He also taught that they would be born in spirit.

So is would be believe > obeidence to Jesus teachings about receiving and living by spirit > be immersed for forgiveness of your sins > born of spirit > obey the command to Love as God loves through faith.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 19 2011,16:58)

To Pierre,   The practice of the giving the Holy Spirit via the hands is done today in the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints. One must keep in mind that for us it truly is Christ baptising us with the Holy Spirit just like John the Baptist said.                                                   With Love and Respect,                                                              Wispring

wispring

hi ,is that sect part of the original Christian group that fallow the apostles ?

or they are some who came out of the protestant separation from the catholics ??and start to practice the laying of hands.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2011,22:03)

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 18 2011,21:01) Question to all….. Is it possible to possess the spirit of God by virtue of obedience and repentence without the physical emersion in water…instead having a baptism of desire…. The immersion is water is for repentence from ones sins.   You can say the words but if you do not do the the associate actions then your faith is dead.  James tell us just that. James 1 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. Remember Peter called those who believed on Pentecost to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sin.  He also taught that they would be born in spirit. So is would be believe > obeidence to Jesus teachings about receiving and living by spirit > be immersed for forgiveness of your sins > born of spirit > obey the command to Love as God loves through faith.

Kerwin

James does not talk about the water baptism but of our conduct in the fruits of the spirit and living up to it not be only a talker.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Piere,

James was teaching a godly principle that can be applied to many situations.

I do agree that he directly refering to the fruits of the spirit.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2011,00:15)

Piere, James was teaching a godly principle that can be applied to many situations. I do agree that he directly refering to the fruits of the spirit.

Kerwin

water baptism is a ritual ,principals is wisdom,

it is so common practice in all Christian denomination ,because it separate us all into boxes,i am from peter,I am from Paul,I am protestant,I am Catholic,I am adventist,ect……………..one practice 500 separations ??

were is Christ

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2011,15:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2011,00:15) Piere, James was teaching a godly principle that can be applied to many situations. I do agree that he directly refering to the fruits of the spirit. Kerwin water baptism is a ritual ,principals is wisdom, it is so common practice in all Christian denomination ,because it separate us all into boxes,i am from peter,I am from Paul,I am protestant,I am Catholic,I am adventist,ect……………..one practice 500 separations ?? were is Christ Pierre

Pierre,

I demonstrated to you from scripture that Jesus' disciples, while obeying all he taught them, immersed those who believed in water.     In doing so the demonstrated the principle that hearing the teaching to baptize those that and doing is what God requires.

They continued to  immerse those that believed in water afterwords as demonstrates in scripture.  They immersed both Gentiles and Greeks.  

There is only one gospel of the new covenant and the new covenant was sealed by Jesus' death and resurrection.   He also ascended to heaven to mediate it.

What divides those called Christians is that too many either listen to their sinful nature instead of to God or lack understanding.

[Tim Kraft]

theodorej: The spirit of God is the words of God given through Jesus. Physical water only cleanses the outside of the body. The washing of the water of the word of God (Eph.5:26) is the baptism of today. We must be immersed, covered, whelmed, baptised in the spirit words of God. When Jesus said we must be born of water and spirit I personally believe a more accurate translation would be ….must be born of the water of spirit or spirit water. If he was talking about physical water he meant that one must be born of a woman into the earth and born of the spirit words of God to return. IMO, TK

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