Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Ed J]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Mar. 07 2011,20:24)

Kangaroo Jack Jr.: What a great, wonderful, powerful, accurate post. I knew this truth in my heart but was until now unable to properly present it with clear explanation. To receive one accurate confirmation of revelation truth to me is worth picking through much man made doctrinal garbage. Thanks again for your truth, it confirmed mine! IMO, TK

Hi Tim,

Yes, we all must 'weed' through a lot of squag when reading your Posts,
to pick out the “nuggets of Truth”!   …Thank you for pointing this out! (Matt.7:2)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[KangarooJack]

Tim Kraft said:

Quote

Kangaroo Jack Jr.: What a great, wonderful, powerful, accurate post. I knew this truth in my heart but was until now unable to properly present it with clear explanation. To receive one accurate confirmation of revelation truth to me is worth picking through much man made doctrinal garbage. Thanks again for your truth, it confirmed mine! IMO, TK

Thanks Tim,

The thing that puzzles me is that Jesus NEVER connected baptism with water in His own teachings and then all of a sudden in Matthew 28:19 He connects baptism with water. When the apostles baptised they were carrying on the Mosaic ordinance which was for Jews only and which has ended.

The Catholic Church erred regarding baptism and so do the Protestant churches that follow. Please see my post above regarding the way the word “baptize” is used in scripture and in history.

KJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 08 2011,07:52)

Tim Kraft said: Quote Kangaroo Jack Jr.: What a great, wonderful, powerful, accurate post. I knew this truth in my heart but was until now unable to properly present it with clear explanation. To receive one accurate confirmation of revelation truth to me is worth picking through much man made doctrinal garbage. Thanks again for your truth, it confirmed mine! IMO, TK Thanks Tim, The thing that puzzles me is that Jesus NEVER connected baptism with water in His own teachings and then all of a sudden in Matthew 28:19 He connects baptism with water. When the apostles baptised they were carrying on the Mosaic ordinance which was for Jews only and which has ended. The Catholic Church erred regarding baptism and so do the Protestant churches that follow. Please see my post above regarding the way the word “baptize” is used in scripture and in history. KJ

KJ

yes you right that was my argument with Nick in Baptism and he would not let go the water.

good point.

Pierre

[KangarooJack]

I said:

Quote

Thanks Tim, The thing that puzzles me is that Jesus NEVER connected baptism with water in His own teachings and then all of a sudden in Matthew 28:19 He connects baptism with water. When the apostles baptised they were carrying on the Mosaic ordinance which was for Jews only and which has ended. The Catholic Church erred regarding baptism and so do the Protestant churches that follow. Please see my post above regarding the way the word “baptize” is used in scripture and in history. KJ

Pierre:

Quote

KJ yes you right that was my argument with Nick in Baptism and he would not let go the water. good point. Pierre

Cool!  

KJ

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 08 2011,00:52)

Tim Kraft said: Quote Kangaroo Jack Jr.: What a great, wonderful, powerful, accurate post. I knew this truth in my heart but was until now unable to properly present it with clear explanation. To receive one accurate confirmation of revelation truth to me is worth picking through much man made doctrinal garbage. Thanks again for your truth, it confirmed mine! IMO, TK Thanks Tim, The thing that puzzles me is that Jesus NEVER connected baptism with water in His own teachings and then all of a sudden in Matthew 28:19 He connects baptism with water. When the apostles baptised they were carrying on the Mosaic ordinance which was for Jews only and which has ended. The Catholic Church erred regarding baptism and so do the Protestant churches that follow. Please see my post above regarding the way the word “baptize” is used in scripture and in history. KJ

KJ: Bless you. For me, in my search for truth, when Jesus told Nicodmus, you must be born again to see the kingdom trough understanding the truth. When the light comes to mind, of a truth, when understood one says, oh, I see! When Jesus said to the people, he who has ears to hear, let him hear. They most all had physical ears. As the spiritual picture is created in the heart of man dead words become alive with life.

Eph:5:26 when Paul made reference to the washing of the water of the word of God,again it was a form of bapsism or washing the mind of unbelief and untruth. There was no baptism in the old testament. The truth of God had come to expose lies and deceptions.

NTBaptism was a physical picture of the spirit change of the heart of men by the truth from God through Jesus.

It was a physical water washing reflecting a vision in the heart.

aking away the old religious ways of works and rituals, to make way for the New spirit way coming.

Water baptism was a picture of one dying to the old way
and a resurrection to new spirit life. The new spirit life would be created by Gods words through Jesus.worsarespirit. This is also the infilling of the Holy Spirit of Gods words through Jesus unto mankind. This is the new man created in Christ, by spirit words of God from Jesus. Some thoughts, IMO, TK

[Shania]

-What is the “tri-une name?” Is it the phrase, 'in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit?'

-If so, how come we never hear the disciples use this phrase, nevermind water baptizing- did they ever use it?

– Do you think it strange that “the father” “the son” and “the holy spirit” are not names?

[Shania]

Rom 13:8

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
NIV

Rom 13:8

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
NIV

1 Cor 8:1-3
a Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
NIV

[seekingtruth]

kj,
I agree that this is not a verse about water baptism, after reading your post I studied this verse, went to different translations, to the original Greek, and prayed about it and after a couple of hours I felt the Lord had showed me that this verse referred to making a group of people by immersing them in the experiential knowledge of what it is to be a “Christian”, a relationship to the Father (as the source), the Son (as the image) and Holy Spirit (as the comforter and seal of our salvation). Happy with what I felt explained this verse I went to bed, however I noticed on the shelf next to my bed a “Jewish Bible” my wife had gotten me recently and thought I would look it up in there. It translated Matthew 28:19 as “Therefore, go and make a people from all nations into talmidim (disciples) immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son, and the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit). I felt God had confirmed what he had showed me earlier and thought I would share that with you.

My opinion – Wm

[KangarooJack]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 09 2011,00:55)

kj, I agree that this is not a verse about water baptism, after reading your post I studied this verse, went to different translations, to the original Greek, and prayed about it and after a couple of hours I felt the Lord had showed me that this verse referred to making a group of people by immersing them in the experiential knowledge of what it is to be a “Christian”, a relationship to the Father (as the source), the Son (as the image) and Holy Spirit (as the comforter and seal of our salvation). Happy with what I felt explained this verse I went to bed, however I noticed on the shelf next to my bed a “Jewish Bible” my wife had gotten me recently and thought I would look it up in there. It translated Matthew 28:19 as “Therefore, go and make a people from all nations into talmidim (disciples) immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son, and the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit). I felt God had confirmed what he had showed me earlier and thought I would share that with you. My opinion – Wm

Wm,

I don't totally disagree with you. You are on the right track about baptism having reference to bringing people into the knowlege of God, that is, the Tri-une God.

The word “baptizo” was about changing one's character or disposition as I have shown from scripture and history. Water baptism was an old covenant bathing ritual which the apostles eventually let go after God had revealed to Peter that He had cleansed all men. If God has cleansed all men, then why the need to continue the old covenant bathing ritual?

It is a shame that men obscure God's wonderful gospel truth by their requiring this old covenant ritual today. it's the fault of the Catholics.

Please see my post immediately below.

God bless,

KJ

[KangarooJack]

Marty asked:

Quote

Hi Jack: Were Cornelius and those with him whom the Apostle Peter commanded to be baptized Gentiles? Jesus said: “Thus it becometh “US” to fulfill all righteousness”.

Marty,
Peter allowed Cornelius and his household to be baptized AFTER His vision that God had cleansed all men and AFTER the Holy Spirit had fallen upon them. Before this time Peter baptized Jews only.

Please note that it was AFTER Cornelius and his house were baptized that Peter recalled the word of Christ when He said, “John indeed baptized with water, but YOU shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 11:16).

After this Peter never baptized again. After the baptism of Cornelius and his house only Paul baptized by the Spirit just as Jesus promised. (Acts 16:15, 33; 18:8; 29:3-5).

I offer FOUR proofs that Paul's baptisms were not with water but by the Spirit:

1. There is no mention of water at all in any of Paul's baptisms after Peter baptized Cornelius and his house.

2. Paul explicitly commanded baptism by the Spirit in contrast to baptism by water (Acts 19:3-5).

3. Paul explicitly said that he was not called to baptize with water (I Corinthians 1:17).

4. Paul speaks only of Spirit baptism as the requisite in his epistles.

Explain how this fits with your view that Jesus commanded water baptism in Matthew 28:19. He indicated that He would be with them until the “end of the age.” The last persons to be baptized with water was Cornelius and his house. Was this when the “end of the age” occurred?

YOUR THREE-FOLD PREDICAMENT:

1. You have no manuscript inwhich the Tri-une name is absent in Matthew 28:19.

2. You have no proof that Jesus commanded water baptism in Matthew 28:19.

3. You have no proof that Jesus taught water baptism as a requirement before Matthew 28:19.

You lose your case Marty! You need a manuscript inwhich the Tri-une name is absent AND you need proof that Jesus commissioned His disciples to baptize with water. YOU HAVE NEITHER!

Jack

[kerwin]

To all,

Jesus taught the covenant that was to come and not what already existed at the time of his teachings.

During Jesus' teaching his students baptized with water for repentence.  

Baptism in water to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit did not occur until after the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.

I read some posters that seem to get that timeline and its effects wrong.

[Tim Kraft]

to all: Water Baptism was a symbol of the work of God, through Jesus, that was about to come. It was intended to prepare the way of the lord and make his path straight. The day(light) of the lord had come. This was the Sabbath unto God. The great change in history between BC and AD. The change of the covenant. The year of Jubilee. When Jesus began to preach the Kingdom of God within each person, this was the new birth. The new creation of man. The old passed and the new arrived.

Now the words of Jesus were spirit from God. The new spirit words of God, when accepted and believed begin to build the new Temple within each person. They begin to build the new Church which is his body. The spirit words begin to build a new man, created by the words of Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the foundation, the corner stone, the cap stone, the door way in, the light within, the true food and true drink, the sacrifice for purification. Jesus is the way of truth to God. We must die to the old Testament ways and take on the new baptism in spirit. The new washing is the spirit “water of the word” doing its work. The spirit truth takes away our sin(wrong thinking), cleanses us(from degrading words of unworthyness), purifies us, gives us righteousness unto God and ordains us for the work of the ministry.
This is what we are if we eat the true food, partake of true drink, and exist fully whelmed and emersed in the spirit, water, words from God. This is all the new birth or being born again. IMO, TK

[Ed J]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Mar. 09 2011,20:52)

sin(wrong thinking)

Hi Tim,

       It's not 'your thoughts' that are a sin against another person, but a deed!
       It seems You keep missing that sin is the act of doing; NOT THINKING!

Gen.4:7 If thou DOEST well, shalt thou not be accepted?  
and If thou DOEST not well, sin lieth at the door.  
Sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

To all,

Scripture does not say that water baptism is symbolic.  It does say our old spirits are buried with Christ when we are immersed in him and each of us comes forth with a new spirit created like God in true holiness and righteousness.  That is the description of a miracle of God and not a symbol.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2011,15:12)

To all, Scripture does not say that water baptism is symbolic.  It does say our old spirits are buried with Christ when we are immersed in him and each of us comes forth with a new spirit created like God in true holiness and righteousness.  That is the description of a miracle of God and not a symbol.

Kerwin

immersed in Christ means to understand is teaching and apply it to our own live ,then the miracle of God comes forth

Pierre

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

TO ALL:

Quote

This brings us to the consideration of Matthew 28:19-20, which is really the crux of the entire issue. For, no matter what we might feel about it, even if water-baptism does not seem to make theological sense, if our Lord were really commanding us to be water-baptized, that would certainly settle the issue. In fact, that is not at all what this passage, an admittedly difficult one to interpret, really relates. What this passage actually commands is for us to “make disciples” (the only imperative in the Greek), that is, to teach mankind about Jesus Christ, how to come to Him and how to follow Him. The two participles (“baptizing” and “teaching”) are clearly instrumental in nature (i.e., they show the method of carrying out the order: “by baptizing” and “by teaching”). “Baptizing” and “teaching” therefore reflect the means to these two parts of the process, namely 1) entering into Christ, and 2) properly following Him thereafter. “Baptizing them into the Name of …” thus must refer to THE MEDIATION OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE by which we all are baptized by the Spirit through faith into all three Persons of the Trinity (Rom.6:3; cf. Is.30:27), while “teaching them” clearly concerns the post-salvation process of growth and discipleship which is equally essential.[/b] Beyond all question, it is the baptism of the Spirit which places us into union with God, union with Christ – and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit which is the pledge of this (2Cor.1:21-22; Eph.1:13-14; 4:30). Water-baptism has nothing to do with either. Therefore, in my view, the main point behind the baptism referred to in Matthew 28:19 is the same as the one made in 1st Corinthians 12:13 where we are all “baptized into one Body (of Christ, His Person, His Name)

KJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Here is the link for the source in the post immediately above.

http://ichthys.com/mail-water%20baptism.htm

KJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 10 2011,17:03)

TO ALL: Quote This brings us to the consideration of Matthew 28:19-20, which is really the crux of the entire issue. For, no matter what we might feel about it, even if water-baptism does not seem to make theological sense, if our Lord were really commanding us to be water-baptized, that would certainly settle the issue. In fact, that is not at all what this passage, an admittedly difficult one to interpret, really relates. What this passage actually commands is for us to “make disciples” (the only imperative in the Greek), that is, to teach mankind about Jesus Christ, how to come to Him and how to follow Him. The two participles (“baptizing” and “teaching”) are clearly instrumental in nature (i.e., they show the method of carrying out the order: “by baptizing” and “by teaching”). “Baptizing” and “teaching” therefore reflect the means to these two parts of the process, namely 1) entering into Christ, and 2) properly following Him thereafter. “Baptizing them into the Name of …” thus must refer to THE MEDIATION OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE by which we all are baptized by the Spirit through faith into all three Persons of the Trinity (Rom.6:3; cf. Is.30:27), while “teaching them” clearly concerns the post-salvation process of growth and discipleship which is equally essential.[/b] Beyond all question, it is the baptism of the Spirit which places us into union with God, union with Christ – and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit which is the pledge of this (2Cor.1:21-22; Eph.1:13-14; 4:30). Water-baptism has nothing to do with either. Therefore, in my view, the main point behind the baptism referred to in Matthew 28:19 is the same as the one made in 1st Corinthians 12:13 where we are all “baptized into one Body (of Christ, His Person, His Name) KJ

KJ

there are no tree persons in or out of that scripture,

the holy spirit in not a person and has no name that any one knows ,only is effects on people or things.

and there is only one holy spirit it is the one coming from God himself ,holy spirit is the will of God either in action by others or in influence trough knowledge.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

immersed in Christ means to be immersed into the holy spirit; which is also called the spirit of Christ.

Look at Acts 2:38-39 and you will see that the result of being baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins is that you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  One place the promise of the Spirit of Christ is written is Matthew 5:6.

References:

Acts 2(NIV)

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Matthew 5(NIV)

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 10 2011,22:11)

Pierre, immersed in Christ means to be immersed into the holy spirit; which is also called the spirit of Christ. Look at Acts 2:38-39 and you will see that the result of being baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins is that you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  One place the promise of the Spirit of Christ is written is Matthew 5:6. References: Acts 2(NIV) 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Matthew 5(NIV) 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

Kerwin

those are all Jews,

and peter stay in Jerusalem and Israel for what Christ told him;
Jn 21:15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
Jn 21:16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
Jn 21:17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.

he was send to the Jews and Paul was send to the gentiles.

is baptism in the hearth or in the flesh that counts ?

is it the ritual or the true conviction to serve God with a pure hearth that counts ?

for the ritual you have to go to religion they love to make new proselytes.

it is by faith in Christ that we are saved don't we??

Pierre

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