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Hi H,
Yes and if you think it is as water you are much mistaken.
Such is a euphemism for a mixture of murky fluid mixed with all sorts of matter.
You are off the point.Show us from scripture and you will have validity.
Nick,
I have showed you and you cannot see.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Hi H,
But you have no scriptural witnesses to your contention that being born of water relates to natural birth. No the motion lapses for lack of a seconder.What do you think it means Nick, that which is born of the flesh is flesh?
It has but one meaning.Are you so indoctrinated you cannot understand? A man must be born of water and of spirit. Now, we must ask ourselves why would the lord use theses word in such manner? You do that and you will know for sure. The answer is simple. Adam, who brought death to all men has no salvation. He was created. Jesus, by wording this part of scripture prevented Adam and Eve from any chance of eternal life. For they were created, not born.
Hi H,
I think he was saying that our fleshly existence has no future.
What is born of flesh is only flesh.
We die.
As 1Cor 15 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.We need the life unto eternity in the Son of God.
We need first the forgiveness given through the submission to water baptism [except by God's sovereign rule].
We need the new life of the Spirit unto eternity.
We must be born from above.
We must be born again.We are born again of water and the Spirit.
Natural birth is being born of flesh…. not of water.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2006,00:51) Hi kenrch,
Is there any point in throwing pearls before swine?
Or giving anything to you if you only intend to mock?If you cannot hear the Spirit in what I offer then let you feet take you to where you can learn. Clearly you are wasting you time asking. I can give you nothing useful it seems. You think you are replete.
Nick I tried to place your answers to what I thought you may have ment. Please correct them if needed.
It seems that you think this is all a joke and like most things not worthy of your attention as mentioned before.1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
*If we share the Spirit of God we can know the heart of God.1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
*We are made like unto God.
*We have a human spirit. Our spirit knows us and our heart.
The relationship between God and His Spirit is similar to our relationship with our spirit
.1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
God is spirit.
*We can speak as from the heart of God
*We can know the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit of God given to us, by that Spirit.1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
*Only those who share that Spirit can grasp what we speak of the heart of God.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
*The rest think we are fools.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
??We derive our life from the breath of God.????
You are arrogant, rude, which shows that you do not have the LOVE of God (1Cor. 13:3-8; Gal 5:22-25).
***Perhaps you can correct my ignorance.***
——————————————-
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
*His Spirit reveals His Word. Man's understanding using mans method will come to a flase conclusion and doctrine.
Revealed to us by His Spirit not intellects!1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
*This scripture says that you don't know the thief on the cross. Only God knows the heart.
Therefore if you should die before being baptized God knowing your heart will save you.
The things of God no worldly man will know except him that has the Spirit of God.1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
*We have recieved the Spirit of God “that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.' If we receive the Spirit of God then He will give us understanding through His Spirit. Not definitions of words that man thinks they mean. A spiritual book only understood by the Spirit who wrote it.
God's ways are not man's way. Unless born again then you will be using your own spirit which is not the way of God.1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
*We are taught by the Holy Spirit. We read the scripture and understand the scripture through the Holy Spirit comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Not just reading the scripture dissecting the words and trying to understanding with man's spirit.
“… not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth..” Scripture says ONLY men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the bible.” These modern teachers and their definitions are inspired by Satan who has changed the Word (Dan.7:25: Rev.22:14).1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
*You cannot understand the Word of God with man's method of understanding. The bible is a spiritual book and can ONLY be understood through the Holy Spirit with Your spirit and not the old man's mind.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
*He that has the Holy Spirit judges with the Holy Spirit but the Spirit is not judged.
Do you understand what the above scriptures are saying? Spirit, Spirit, Spirit!!
The fact is that YOU would not let your son in your home if he were not dunked in water no matter if he repented and asked you for forgiveness.
Do you really expect the Holy Father to do the same? I wander did the prodigal son get baptized before his father took him back?Sir you cannot have the Love and thereby the Holy Spirit of God.
Kenrch you say “Spirit, Spirit, Spirit”
but what you teach is largely from the spirit of man. HOW SO?Here is scripture Nick that says you are wrong. But that will not be good enough, will it?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: No Water
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. No Water
These recieved the Holy Spirit Before they were baptized. Certainly you would have to be forgiven of sin before receiving the Holy Spirit. NO WATER YET SAVED
Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. No Water
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No water
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Jesus said that the Thief would be with Him in Paradise.If you want to over rule Jesus, go right ahead Nick.
Oh the point Nick is that the thief was forgiven without water.
You say he was under the Old Testament. That didn't seem to bother Jesus. If you cannot be forgiven without water How could Jesus forgive him.Act 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and sa
id, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:Do you understand what the above scriptures are saying? Spirit, Spirit, Spirit!!
The fact is that YOU would not let your son in your home if he were not dunked in water no matter if he repented and asked you for forgiveness.
Do you really expect the Holy Father to do the same? I wander did the prodigal son get baptized before his father took him back?Sir you cannot have the Love and thereby the Holy Spirit of God.
Kenrch you say “Spirit, Spirit, Spirit”
but what you teach is largely from the spirit of man. HOW SO?Nick I think you need another break.
Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2006,04:30) 1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
*His Spirit reveals His Word. Man's understanding using mans method will come to a flase conclusion and doctrine.
Revealed to us by His Spirit not intellects!1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
*This scripture says that you don't know the thief on the cross. Only God knows the heart.
Therefore if you should die before being baptized God knowing your heart will save you.
The things of God no worldly man will know except him that has the Spirit of God.1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
*We have recieved the Spirit of God “that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.' If we receive the Spirit of God then He will give us understanding through His Spirit. Not definitions of words that man thinks they mean. A spiritual book only understood by the Spirit who wrote it.
God's ways are not man's way. Unless born again then you will be using your own spirit which is not the way of God.1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
*We are taught by the Holy Spirit. We read the scripture and understand the scripture through the Holy Spirit comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Not just reading the scripture dissecting the words and trying to understanding with man's spirit.
“… not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth..” Scripture says ONLY men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the bible.” These modern teachers and their definitions are inspired by Satan who has changed the Word (Dan.7:25: Rev.22:14).1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
*You cannot understand the Word of God with man's method of understanding. The bible is a spiritual book and can ONLY be understood through the Holy Spirit with Your spirit and not the old man's mind.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
*He that has the Holy Spirit judges with the Holy Spirit but the Spirit is not judged.
Do you understand what the above scriptures are saying? Spirit, Spirit, Spirit!!
The fact is that YOU would not let your son in your home if he were not dunked in water no matter if he repented and asked you for forgiveness.
Do you really expect the Holy Father to do the same? I wander did the prodigal son get baptized before his father took him back?Sir you cannot have the Love and thereby the Holy Spirit of God.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: No WaterJoh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. No Water
These recieved the Holy Spirit Before they were baptized. Certainly you would have to be forgiven of sin before receiving the Holy Spirit. NO WATER YET SAVED
Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. No Water
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No water
Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Jesus said that the Thief would be with Him in Paradise.If you want to over rule Jesus, go right ahead Nick.
Oh the point Nick is that the thief was forgiven without water.
You say he was under the Old Testament. That didn't seem to bother Jesus. If you cannot be forgiven without water How could Jesus forgive him.Act 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Do you understand what the above scriptures are saying? Spirit, Spirit, Spirit!!
Kenrch you say “Spirit, Spirit, Spirit”
but what you teach is largely from the spirit of man. HOW SO?
Hi kenrch,
How many times in the book of Acts were men converted and not baptised in water immediately?
These men had sat at the feet of the Master and were following his instructions?
Are they an example for us or has God change his mind?Quote (kenrch @ June 20 2006,04:30) ??We derive our life from the breath of God.????Therefore if you should die before being baptized God knowing your heart will save you.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: No Water
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. No Water
These recieved the Holy Spirit Before they were baptized. Certainly you would have to be forgiven of sin before receiving the Holy Spirit. NO WATER YET SAVED
Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. No Water
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No water
Oh the point Nick is that the thief was forgiven without water.
You say he was under the Old Testament. That didn't seem to bother Jesus. If you cannot be forgiven without water How could Jesus forgive him.Do you really expect the Holy Father to do the same? I wander did the prodigal son get baptized before his father took him back?
Hi kenrch,
Gen 2.7
“Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE:AND MAN BECAME A LIVING BEING”
Does faith alone save you?
Jas 2.19
“You believe that God is one? You do well; the demons also believe and shudder”The thief could not be saved through the death of Jesus but Jesus forgave him as he sin throughout his ministry. He had the authority and the power to do so given by God.
The understsnding of belief throufghout the NT was of obedient belief. Salvation in the Son of God is through his command that we be born again of water and the Spirit. That is the Way of Jesus. We are baptised for the forgiveness of our sins as Peter told the crowds at Pentecost.
Your statement that;
“Therefore if you should die before being baptised God knowing your heart will save you”
is a statement of your opinion.
It may or not be true but you do not have the backing of the Word of God to make such a claim and cannot expect us to agree with it, as it is just an opinion.
Hi kenrch,
I admire your zeal for the Word of God and your yearning for greater understanding. Keep going. Keep searching and you will be a useful tool in the hand of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2006,00:51) Hi kenrch,
Is there any point in throwing pearls before swine?
Or giving anything to you if you only intend to mock?If you cannot hear the Spirit in what I offer then let you feet take you to where you can learn. Clearly you are wasting you time asking. I can give you nothing useful it seems. You think you are replete.
Hi kenrch,
I should not have used this scripture and I apologise.
I meant it in the broad sense that what we are trying to share with one another is simply not working. We have a communication block, a difference in basic understanding. It works both ways.No way do I intend it as a personal insult but I can see how it can be read that way. Neither do I believe that I am a pure stream and only offer pearls. That is clearly nonsense and the scripture could have applied to me too as I have been slow to pick up the pearls of wisdom offered me by others.
Neither was I asking you to leave the forum as you are a very valuable member who contributes many good things. Imeant that I thought it would be better to enquire of another member if I could not meet your needs.
I hope this helps.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2006,21:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2006,00:51) Hi kenrch,
Is there any point in throwing pearls before swine?
Or giving anything to you if you only intend to mock?If you cannot hear the Spirit in what I offer then let you feet take you to where you can learn. Clearly you are wasting you time asking. I can give you nothing useful it seems. You think you are replete.
Hi kenrch,
I should not have used this scripture and I apologise.
I meant it in the broad sense that what we are trying to share with one another is simply not working. We have a communication block, a difference in basic understanding. It works both ways.No way do I intend it as a personal insult but I can see how it can be read that way. Neither do I believe that I am a pure stream and only offer pearls. That is clearly nonsense and the scripture could have applied to me too as I have been slow to pick up the pearls of wisdom offered me by others.
Neither was I asking you to leave the forum as you are a very valuable member who contributes many good things. Imeant that I thought it would be better to enquire of another member if I could not meet your needs.
I hope this helps.
I agree Nick. My behaviour has been less than honorable and I apologise for my short comings.However I just do not understand your teaching on the subject as I'm sure you don't understand mine. I understand the scriptures say to be baptized in the name of Jesus for our forgivness of sins.
Your argument is that anything less would not be scriptural. And if no scripture is found to support another way to get saved then there is no proof and therefore no other way.My argument is there is scripture which says to call on the name of Jesus and you will be saved. To me that scripture says it all. I believe the scripture means Call on His name and because you call on his name you will be baptized. In other words to Call on His Name leads to baptizem.
Still if that person could not get baptized before the person died he would be with Jesus because of his heart and his repentance.If I could I would just drop what I believe but as you know I CANNOT and neither can you just comparomise your belief.
I went too far in pushing for what I believe, I should have just accepted (as I will from now on) that when we disagree to state my belief then let it alone. The Holy Spirit will make the truth known in due time.
As far as being a handy tool for the Lord :-), I told the Lord years ago that I would be (of course) honored to serve Him in any way He could use me. I don't seek my own glory but to bring Glory to His Name. Amen
Neither your nor my behaviour has brought honor to His name. For this I am ashamed and pray that I don't behave like a babe any more and ask for the Lord's forgivness in this whole matter. Amen
PEACE AND BLESSING BROTHER,
Ken
Hi,
Baptism is not magic.
That is why it is not right to baptise babies.
The effectiveness of baptism in the forgiveness of sins is in the repentance.“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”
Babies cannot repent.
Lk 24.46f
“Thus it is written that the Christ should suffer and rise on the third day; and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins be proclaimed in his name to all the nations beginning from Jerusalem”
Acts 26.18
“to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in me”ps Acts 5.31
“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a saviour, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins”Romans 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;
26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.
Faith in his blood unto rightiousness saves.
amen,
But faith shown though obedience to the command of God.
Heb 11.8
” By faith, Abraham, when he was called, OBEYED by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out not knowing where he was going”The salvation by faith alone that many preach from Acts16.31
“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved..”
is shown to involve more than just faith by the next two verses.
The jailor's family had the gospel preached to him and they were baptised into the kingdom in the name of Jesus as per the instructions of the Master.
Yet, it is the blood that saves us. By our believing in Jesus, we are cleansed by his blood. The baptism of blood saves us. This is the baptism in Eph.
Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
And although one is saved by the washing away of sins by the blood of the lamb, it is important they do recieve the baptism of water. For as our Lord recieved the baptism of water, we should have a willingness to do likewise. But to not do so will not result is the loss of one's salvation and to say differently is to be judgemental. It is God who will decide in this matter. Yet, it is very important one should seek the water baptism. For who could have Christ in his heart and not have the desire for water baptism?
Hi H,
It is you who callls the sprinkling with the blood “baptism”, not scripture.We do not have the right to apply our understandings to scripture, as you seem to have done with this understanding, and with the rendering of Eph 4.5. Others on this site others have declared, standing on their own rendering too, that this verse refers instead to baptism in the Spirit.
“Baptism”
is baptism in water unless otherwise specified, in my view, otherwise there is confusion, and our God is not a God of confusion.
It is up to us to seek understanding and learn, from what is shown, by comparing verse with verse and context with context, and to teach from that and not from our derived ideas and speculations surely?
As far as the importance of baptism is, we just obey, and we leave the understanding of it till all is revealed later. It is not a matter of judgement but of helping to rescue men from perishing, according to the ways commanded by God.[Jn 3.16, Jn 3.36]
Yet, you are confused Nick. For the scriptures say it is the blood that washes away our sins, it is the blood that saves us. You say it is the water. As once you did say correctly, God is not a God of confusion. So believe his word. It is by faith in his Son we are saved and by his blood we are made clean.
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