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Hi tt,
Lk16
16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.And at pentecost the Spirit revealed the full expression of the new covenant.
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 17 2009,12:20) Seeking said: Quote I have said in the past to you, on several occassions, I do not “insist” that anyone be baptised – nor did Jesus. Seeking,
Now I am confused. Are you saying that baptism is not required? Again you saidQuote I do not “insist” that anyone be baptized-nor did Jesus You've lost me now. I don't understand!
thinker
Thinker,I have said I will not be further involved in these fruitless discussions. I do not desire to say the same thing 1000 times.
Read to comprehend rather than offer rebuttal and you will have understood what I said about baptism on numerous occassions.
Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Nick said:
Quote Should we take your word for this?
Surely we should rather obey as the disciples did?Nick,
It's not like I haven't given Scriptural support before. Just scroll back on this thread for the last two months and review all my arguments from Scripture. Now come on!thinker
Seeking said:
Quote I have said I will not be further involved in these fruitless discussions. I do not desire to say the same thing 1000 times. Read to comprehend rather than offer rebuttal and you will have understood what I said about baptism on numerous occassions.
Seeking,
I will grant that recently you have not required baptism. But before March 1 you insisted on it. I scrolled back and the first time you said you relaxed the requirement was on March 1 at 17:39, p. 80. You said:Quote I impose baptism on no one and fault no one for desiring to make it a part of their walk then I replied
Quote You're starting to see the light. Amen! (Mar 2 at 7:19, p. 81) you answered
Quote I saw the light years ago and resolved the baptism issue in my mind then (Mar 2 at 9:03) So what does the statement “I saw the light years ago” mean? Does it mean that you decided years ago that baptism was NOT required? I ask this because before March 2 you required baptism. Don't get me wrong here. You say that you don't require baptism now and I am taking your word for it. But from what I can tell it appears that you had not decided this “years ago.” How was the baptism issue resolved “years ago” in your mind when there appears to have been a recent change in your thinking?
This is why I am confused.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 18 2009,08:18) Nick said: Quote Should we take your word for this?
Surely we should rather obey as the disciples did?Nick,
It's not like I haven't given Scriptural support before. Just scroll back on this thread for the last two months and review all my arguments from Scripture. Now come on!thinker
Hi tt,
Yes we know you are convinced.
But you do not seem to be correct.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2009,09:28) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 18 2009,08:18) Nick said: Quote Should we take your word for this?
Surely we should rather obey as the disciples did?Nick,
It's not like I haven't given Scriptural support before. Just scroll back on this thread for the last two months and review all my arguments from Scripture. Now come on!thinker
Hi tt,
Yes we know you are convinced.
But you do not seem to be correct.
Nick,
Knock it off! You did not ask me if I was convinced. You asked me if I expected you to take my word for it. So I told you to scroll back the last two monts and see the Scriptures I provided. If I expected people to take my word for it I would not have argued from the Scriptures.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 17 2009,14:14) Quote
Seeking,
I will grant that recently you have not required baptism. But before March 1 you insisted on it.Once more, never have I said I required or insisted one be baptizied. I believe I am right on this. You did not refer to the dates I said otherwise or, as you put it, “insisted on it.”
I did post bible passages and a statement as to why I thougt
Paul baptizied some.If you think the passages I cited “require” or “insist” on baptism, you will have to deal with them. You will interject that you have and baptism is not required. That is were you take your stand near as I can tell.
Should I share the same passages with another and they elect to be baptized, I will not discourage them. I recall Phillips interaction with the Eunuch.
Act 8:36-38 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he replied, And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
No big discussion, simply “If you believe” – “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
You are adamant that baptism is not required. Let me ask you this, if one – by faith believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God – is baptised, will they be denied eternal life because they did something not required of them?
You may ask, “if they are not baptised will they be denied eternal life.” Mar 16:16 …whoever does not believe will be condemned. Unbelief condemns!
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Hi tt,
People use scripture to support their ideas every day.
It is very malleable.
But we should let scripture speak to find truth.Seeking said:
Quote You may ask, “if they are not baptised will they be denied eternal life.” Mar 16:16 …whoever does not believe will be condemned. Unbelief condemns! I agree and I take your word for it
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote He compares a flesh walk and a Spirit walk
right in the text. Deny it, but it will not go away.Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.Seeking,
Would you agree that the works of the flesh in Galatians are the expression of the “sinful passions” that are aroused by the law in Romans 7:6? If so, then the remedy for putting those passions to death is by walking in the spirit of the law and not in the letter. Paul said that the sinful passions were aroused by the law. Then he said that they were delivered from the law so that they should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.We agree that the sinful passions must be put to death. But I believe it is by walking in the spirit (small “s”) of the law. I don't think that Paul was referring to walking in the Spirit (capital “s”). If Paul was referring to the Spirit (capital “s”), then how would Christians today overcome? For the Spirit is not given today. He was given only to Jewish believers in the “last days” of the old covenant age. The indwelling Spirit was necessary only until the law was written on the hearts of God's people.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 18 2009,01:58) Quote We agree that the sinful passions must be put to death. But I believe it is by walking in the spirit (small “s”) of the law. Believe as you must, but know that “I” did not capitalize “Spirit.” I simply posted the text. I take it as written.
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit , are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the
Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit , by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit , and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Quote If Paul was referring to the Spirit (capital “s”), then how would Christians today overcome? For the Spirit is not given today. Act 2:17 “'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit , if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Quote
The indwelling Spirit was necessary only until the law was written on the hearts of God's people.Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy . Spirit , whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
I regret that you believe you are devoid of the Spirit within.
I praise God that His Spirit indwells me. Others praise Him for His marvelous gift also!Rom 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 18 2009,01:46) Seeking said: Quote You may ask, “if they are not baptised will they be denied eternal life.” Mar 16:16 …whoever does not believe will be condemned. Unbelief condemns! I agree and I take your word for it
thinker
Believe the scriptures and the testimony they give, not me or any other man.Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Hi tt,
Indeed most are devoid of the Spirit within and searching as blind men in the darkness.
Only obedience to the command of Jesus enables men to see the kingdom.Thinker said to Seeking:
Quote If Paul was referring to the Spirit (capital “s”), then how would Christians today overcome? For the Spirit is not given today. Seeking replies in this manner,
Quote Act 2:17 “'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; Seeking,
I believe that the expression “in the last days” refers to the end time of the old covenant age. I do not believe that the Spirit was poured out beyond those last days. Israel's sons and daughters are not prophesying today. Israel's sons and daughters are not seeing visions and dreaming dreams. In fact, there is no Israel today for Jesus said that they would be scattered among all nations and that their house would be left “desolate”, that is, they would be annihilated (Luke 21). This was their judgment for rejecting their Messiah.The indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit was necessary only until the time when God would write His law upon the minds and hearts of His people.
If the translators are correct in capitalizing the “s” in “spirit”, indicating the Holy Spirit, then God's people today are not included in the exhortation to “walk in the Spirit.” But if the comand to walk in the “spirit” refers to serving the law in the “spirit” as opposed to the letter, then we can have the victory too.
This is how I see it. I try to put myself in the shoes of the original recipients when I read the Bible. Before this I just accepted the tradtional view.
thinker
Hi tt,
You cannot overcome as it is not by might nor power but by the Spirit.[Zech]
Those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are none of his.[Rom8]Hi thethinker:
Just have to say that you are wrong about the following statement:
Quote Israel's sons and daughters are not prophesying today. Israel's sons and daughters are not seeing visions and dreaming dreams. The body of Christ is the Israel of God. The Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Christ were broken off of the vine and we, from the gentile nations who have believed were grafted in.
Quote Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; You are making statements like this because you have not seen nor experienced any of this yourself, but just because that may be so, does not mean that this is not happening. I can assure you that it is.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi tt,
To see the kingdom you must repent and be reborn or water and the Spirit[jn3]
To enter that kingdom you must come to the door of Jesus.
Becoming sons of God is the aim.“knowledge” without action is just another vanity.
Thinker,
94 and Nick addressed your post succinctly.
To limit God's gift of salvation and His Holy Spirit
as you to may sound intellectual but it is not Biblical.Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
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