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kerwin! There are clear cut Scriptures that tell me that Christ preexsited His birth here on earth.
First
Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15 tells me that He was the firstborn of all creation. He also was the firstborn of the death. Col. 1:18 so He may have preeminence, firtborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.
Second by Christ's own words He says in
John 6;38-40 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who send Me.
verse 39:This is the will of the Father who send Me, that I should loose nothing, but should raise Him up at the last day.
verse 4o “And this is the will of Him who send Me…..
John 1:1 He is also called The Word of God who in verse 14 became flesh.
Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is called The Word of God.
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:”
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. i ASKED THIS BEFORE IS THERE ANY OTHER BEING THAT YOU COULD APPLY THESE VERSES TO? I don't think so…
These verses do imply and are not clear Scriptures whch Christ said. However if we cannot apply thes Scriptures to anyone else they to me are clear…..Nobody else ever died for us. The Saints however died for God and Christ…..
There are several other Scriptures like in John 8:58 and 3:17 and 17:5,
Micah 5:2 …….Whose going forth has been from of old, From everylasting. This is a Scripture that is implying that Jesus was there before all creation, of old from everlasting….
Also in John1:2 it says that He made all and nothing that was not made by Him.
Col. 1:16 also says that “All things were created through Him and for Him…..Peace IreneIrene,
I am not seeing what being the firstborn of the new creation or the firstborn, Romans 8:23, of those who are buried with him, Romans 6:9, has to do with pre-existence unless you are speaking of the spirit of Christ.
John 17:18 makes the case that Jesus sent the Twelve into the
world. Does that mean that they too are pre-existent?
It is the spirit of Christ that animates the flesh of Jesus.
The Spirit of Christ does empower Jesus.
Jesus is over everyone in heaven and earth but he is not over God.Jesus was born in Bethlehem Ephrathah and traveled into the world from there.
His origins of old are mentioned in Scripture as he is the foretold Messiah.
Romans 8:19-22 declares that all of creation is suffering the pains of childbirth waiting for the children of God to be revealed.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2010,15:30) Irene, I am not seeing what being the firstborn of the new creation or the firstborn, Romans 8:23, of those who are buried with him, Romans 6:9, has to do with pre-existence unless you are speaking of the spirit of Christ.
John 17:18 makes the case that Jesus sent the Twelve into the
world. Does that mean that they too are pre-existent?
It is the spirit of Christ that animates the flesh of Jesus.
The Spirit of Christ does empower Jesus.
Jesus is over everyone in heaven and earth but he is not over God.Jesus was born in Bethlehem Ephrathah and traveled into the world from there.
His origins of old are mentioned in Scripture as he is the foretold Messiah.
Romans 8:19-22 declares that all of creation is suffering the pains of childbirth waiting for the children of God to be revealed.
What you are saying about Roman 8:23 has nothing to do with the Scripture in Col. and Rev. that Christ is the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the death. And by Jesus own word in John 6:38 and John 17:5. When you say that it does not say that Jesus was the firstborn, or that He had a glory with his father before the world was, you are calling Jesus a liar. Don't you know what glory Christ has now> That is what He had before the world was and He said that He wanted to go back to that and did. He was then raised to a higher position He now has immortality and can't die again. That is His reward ford dying for us……Peace IreneIrene,
I believe you fail to understand that when a child is born it is revealed to all those present. The first born, who is also the first fruit, in most cases being the first to be revealed. Since we who are the first fruits of the new creation, the beginning which is rooted in the death of Jesus. and Jesus came first it is therefore he that is the firstborn of the new creation and firstborn from the dead. The rest of creation is made corruption free through Christ just as it was corrupted through Adam. That is the link between Romans, Colossians, and Revelations.
In regards to John 6:38, why should I disagree that the Spirit of Christ came down from heaven and that Jesus speaks the word of God? This in no way means that Jesus pre-existed his own formation in his mother’s reproductive system.
John 17:5 can easily be explained in light of the fact that God knows all things present, past, or future and has the power on whomever he wishes when he wished whether they currently exist or not. It is only in Matthew 28:18 that Jesus states that all authority has been given to him. We also know he did not send the Holy Spirit until after Pentecost.
Hi MB,
If you think we should work from IMPLICATION where will that lead?I thought scripture warned us that speculation was a no no
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,19:56) Hi MB,
If you think we should work from IMPLICATION where will that lead?I thought scripture warned us that speculation was a no no
Nyou right ,but it is sure a good way to create a separation between true and false believers
Quote (martian @ Sep. 29 2010,05:37) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,15:55) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2010,15:43) 'Ed J, The word beginning is vague as it is a descriptive word. The something that is being described is simply not mentioned in John 15:26-27 and therefore is implied. John's First Century readers most likely knew what Jesus was speaking of but you seemed to have missed it. Have you ever considered the possibility Jesus was speaking of his ministry and not creation?
I did not mention Jeremiah 1:5 but will now. Do you believe in prophecy? Can one prophesy of an individual existing before they do? If the answer to the later question yes and one must know about someone to foretell about them then it follows one can know about someone before they exist.
Neither verse you chose to use backed up your point.
The word “conceive” can mean “form” as in “I conceived an idea”. A number of scripture speak of Jesus being conceived in Mary's reproductive system.
Hi Kerwin,I'm not trying to change your mind as you might think, this
all started because Martian says he goes by clear-cut Scriptures.You helped me to illustrate that even John 15:26-27 is not so clear-cut!
And Martian agrees there is no Scripture that says we did not pre-exist!So you all can continue to argue over irrelevant things if you wish.
I will only persist if you or others seek agreement with me!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I do follow clear cut scriptures. Jesus is called human being many many times in scripture. Do human beings preexist? Yes or no?
If humanity does not preexist then Christ does not.
To all ………..Martian was right in what he said , it was a great loss for him to be kicked of here. IMOpeace and love to you all……………………………….gene
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