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Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,01:56) Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2010,17:34) I'm just going to go find that scripture where Peter says we should venerate Mary. Oh, wait, Peter never mentioned Mary at all. I guess that scripture doesn't exist. Well, Paul wrote a whole lot. I know he must have said we should venerate Mary. hmmm. He doesn't seem to even mention her by name. He refers to her as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4.
How many books did Paul write? And nowhere do we find him urging us to “venerate Mary”? I guess not, since he doesn't even speak of “Mary.”
Where Peter and Paul “true” Christians? Can we learn anything from them?
David! It also says that Maria did not stay a Virgin in Math, 1:25. But it does not matter to them. She did not have other Children either. John is not Jesus Brother. We know that He is. They actually pray to Maria. The Our Father is followed by Hail Maria full of Grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb Jesus, Hail Maria pray for us now and at the hour of our Death, Amen. That is the prayer that is being said, also with the Rosary….One abomination to God after the other. And they think that they are the only true Church here on earth. Their claim that Peter was their first Pope is a lot of nonsense. He and the other Apostles all went to prison and were killed, except John who lived His lived to the end on the Island of Petra.Irene
IreneWhat are you talking about?
James was the brother of our Lord! (Mark 6:3, Gal 1:19) Matt 1:25 says no such thing.
It says Joseph did not have sex with her until Jesus was born.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2010,06:14) CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from.
thinker
Hi All,Most of my family is Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not because I don't agree with some of their interpretation of Scripture. But they will be the first ones to say that they have changed their views in light of more research or new facts.
Which is better: To find out you've been doing it wrong and change, or to find out you've been doing it wrong and keep holding on to those wrong beliefs?
And in defense of those wrong beliefs, the Catholics have basically stated that, because their church is so “holy and right”, it takes precedent over the Bible.
Bottom line is that it should all be about what the Word of God teaches, not about a “religion” or man-made traditions. IMO
peace and love
mikeQuote CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from.
Thinker, find one instance where I contradict myself. (Please don't make one up.) Quotes would be nice.
Catholic apologist, you did this before a few times and I think once for this exact topic. I understand your predicament. You have no actual response on topic, no argument against clear scripture. You are as a child who calls names when backed into a corner. My next question is: Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing?
I would like you to prove me wrong. So I will ask these things again.
The earliest Christians did not seem to worship her or hold her up on a pedestal as so many do today.
The apostle Peter makes no mention of her at all in his inspired writings.
The apostle Paul did not use her name in his inspired letters but spoke of her only as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4.
So, she is mentioned of course in connection with Jesus birth, but after that, she isn't mentioned very much at all. Perhaps this was done purposefully to hinder people from getting dangerously close to to worshiping her.
What example did Jesus himself set in referring to his mother?
CA, If you wonder why this question matters, it's because we claim to follow Jesus and we are to follow his example (above the popes, I'm sure you'd agree).
Luke 11:27, 28, JB:
“Now as he [Jesus] was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”This would have been the perfect, absolutely perfect moment for Jesus to show us all that we are to venerate and almost worship Mary, if that was the case.
As our exemplar, as the Son of Mary, Jesus was handed here the perfect opportunity to speak of Mary.WHAT DID JESUS DO?
He directed attention away from Mary and toward God's word.
CA, is this not what we should do?–Imitate Jesus? Instead of directing undue attention to Mary, should we not direct attention to God and his Word, as Jesus did?
CA, is your answer that God “still speaks through His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.” ? ? ?
CA, if that were true, then great, but why the change of thinking? ? ? Why the flip flop from Peter and Paul who don't mention “Mary” to the now adoration and veneration of Mary? ? ?
CA, was Jesus wrong in what he did? Or are you wrong? Do Peter and Paul know more, or do you?
CA, no one would ever accuse Peter or Paul of worshiping Mary. Yet today, Catholics are often accused of this.
Why the change? ? ?
CA, what does it say that you can't answer these questions? What will people think about you?Because I don't want you to miss this again somehow, I'm putting a giant yellow sticker on it, so it's noticable:
CA, the truth sets us free.
The Church is the body of Christ.
It is not a man-made organisation or political entity.
It is made up of people filled with God's Spirit.
Yes Jesus did once say, “will their be faith when I return”. Well yes there is faith to this day. There are also worldly organisations that are based on tradition that have survived too.
But we are in the world are we not?
Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2010,17:01) Catholic apologist, you did this before a few times and I think once for this exact topic. I understand your predicament. You have no actual response on topic, no argument against clear scripture. You are as a child who calls names when backed into a corner. My next question is: Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing?
You know what david?Debates are a great way to go if you want to talk about one thing and exhaust every possible argument for and against it. Normal discussions like this one, do have the weakness of allowing some to ignore real questions and challenges. They get away with it by reason of all the other posts that can cloud your post.
When I make a point and my opponent ignores me for reasons of them lacking an answer, then a debate with them forces them to discuss it with you or concede.
Think about it.
Quote Worshipping Mary is a grievous sin that can land you in hell. –ca
Quote she is the . . . (Mother of God). . . . Mary gave birth to a Person: God –ca
If Mary is the Mother of God, and God himself commands us to honour our Father and Mother, then it would be consistent that God would honour His Mother.
If this were the case, then it seems that if we are to worship God, then we should also worship the one that God honors, His Mother.
If God is worthy of worship, would not His Mother be as well?This is what the Trinity makes possible. One error can lead to many more errors.
If God has a mother, then does he have an uncle too?
Maybe we should worship his uncle?Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2010,17:34) I'm just going to go find that scripture where Peter says we should venerate Mary. Oh, wait, Peter never mentioned Mary at all. I guess that scripture doesn't exist. Well, Paul wrote a whole lot. I know he must have said we should venerate Mary. hmmm. He doesn't seem to even mention her by name. He refers to her as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4.
How many books did Paul write? And nowhere do we find him urging us to “venerate Mary”? I guess not, since he doesn't even speak of “Mary.”
Where Peter and Paul “true” Christians? Can we learn anything from them?
O yeah…um…let me seeYou can't even substantiate WHERE the Bible came from or what books belong in it.
But…
Maybe the rest of the forum should see what YOU know about your wacky cult:
Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years – if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures. (The Watchtower; 9/15/1910; pp. 298)
But if each of us were left to himself just because he has a copy of the Bible and were to direct his movements independently as he thought he understood the Word, what? It is likely, or possible, that there would be a great deal of confusion or working in competition among us. Hence, besides individually possessing God’s Word, we need a theocratic organization. Yes, besides having God’s spirit of illumination, a Christian needs Jehovah’s theocratic organization in order to understand the Bible. (The Watchtower; 6/15/1951; pp. 375)
The world is full of Bibles, which Book contains the commandments of God. Why, then, do the people not know which way to go? Because they do not also have the teaching or law of the mother, which is light. Jehovah God has provided his holy written Word for all mankind and it contains all the information that is needed for men in taking a course leading to life. But God has not arranged for that Word to speak independently or to shine forth life-giving truths by itself. His Word says: “Light is sown for the righteous.” (Ps. 97:11) It is through his organization that God provides this light that the proverb says is the teaching or law of the mother. If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother. (The Watchtower; 5/1/1957; pp. 274)
Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind. (The Watchtower; 10/1/1967; pp. 587)
Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. (The Watchtower; 7/1/1973; pp. 402)
They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago,… (The Watchtower; 8/15/1981; pp. 29)
No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. (The Watchtower; 12/1/1981; pp. 27)
We have the opportunity to show love for our brothers who take the lead in the congregation or in connection with Jehovah’s visible organization worldwide. This includes being loyal to “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45-47) Let us face the fact that no matter how much Bible reading we have done, we would never have learned the truth on our own. (The Watchtower; 12/1/1990; pp. 19)
Channel to understanding the Bible… All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave. (The Watchtower; 10/1/1994; pp. 8)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2010,13:30) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2010,06:14) CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from.
thinker
Hi All,Most of my family is Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not because I don't agree with some of their interpretation of Scripture. But they will be the first ones to say that they have changed their views in light of more research or new facts.
Which is better: To find out you've been doing it wrong and change, or to find out you've been doing it wrong and keep holding on to those wrong beliefs?
And in defense of those wrong beliefs, the Catholics have basically stated that, because their church is so “holy and right”, it takes precedent over the Bible.
Bottom line is that it should all be about what the Word of God teaches, not about a “religion” or man-made traditions. IMO
peace and love
mike
In other words…he prefers the anarchy of Sola Scriptura
Hi CA,
Yes the catholic church and the watchtower are very similar.
Both ascribe salvation to their weak human leaders and their foolish teachings.Turn to Jesus and his God and the holy scriptures
Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2010,17:01) Quote CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from.
Thinker, find one instance where I contradict myself. (Please don't make one up.) Quotes would be nice.
Catholic apologist, you did this before a few times and I think once for this exact topic. I understand your predicament. You have no actual response on topic, no argument against clear scripture. You are as a child who calls names when backed into a corner. My next question is: Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing?
I would like you to prove me wrong. So I will ask these things again.
The earliest Christians did not seem to worship her or hold her up on a pedestal as so many do today.
I understand YOUR predicament. You can't refute the faith, so you set up a straw man so you can knock it down.We don't worship Mary.
I reject your premise.
As for Paul's non-mention of Mary, you have a faulty view of Scripture. Scripture was not intended to be a comprehensive catechesis book to find out everything you want to know about the faith.
That is what the Church was and is for.
Get in the ark of safety before it is too late.
Hi CA,
So you insist all men accept your foolish catholic teachings as equivalent to scripture and your leader as equivalent to Jesus?
Naah. you have created a false church with false leadership and false teachings.
open your eyes.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,05:14) Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2010,17:34) I'm just going to go find that scripture where Peter says we should venerate Mary. Oh, wait, Peter never mentioned Mary at all. I guess that scripture doesn't exist. Well, Paul wrote a whole lot. I know he must have said we should venerate Mary. hmmm. He doesn't seem to even mention her by name. He refers to her as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4.
How many books did Paul write? And nowhere do we find him urging us to “venerate Mary”? I guess not, since he doesn't even speak of “Mary.”
Where Peter and Paul “true” Christians? Can we learn anything from them?
O yeah…um…let me seeYou can't even substantiate WHERE the Bible came from or what books belong in it.
But…
Maybe the rest of the forum should see what YOU know about your wacky cult:
CALet me just say this; his cult has more truth then yours.
Georg
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,05:23) Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2010,17:01) Quote CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from.
Thinker, find one instance where I contradict myself. (Please don't make one up.) Quotes would be nice.
Catholic apologist, you did this before a few times and I think once for this exact topic. I understand your predicament. You have no actual response on topic, no argument against clear scripture. You are as a child who calls names when backed into a corner. My next question is: Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing?
I would like you to prove me wrong. So I will ask these things again.
The earliest Christians did not seem to worship her or hold her up on a pedestal as so many do today.
I understand YOUR predicament. You can't refute the faith, so you set up a straw man so you can knock it down.We don't worship Mary.
I reject your premise.
As for Paul's non-mention of Mary, you have a faulty view of Scripture. Scripture was not intended to be a comprehensive catechesis book to find out everything you want to know about the faith.
That is what the Church was and is for.
Get in the ark of safety before it is too late.
CAYour ark has hit an iceberg, better get a life jacked.
Georg
CA
lets face it Jesus says;Mt 12:30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barnyou see first it the weeds that are collected ,THE WEEDS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE NOT GATHER WITH CHRIST AND WHO ARE OGAINST CHRIST TEACHINGS.
Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
THINK ABOUT IT (VATICAN)
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,13:35) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,05:14) Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2010,17:34) I'm just going to go find that scripture where Peter says we should venerate Mary. Oh, wait, Peter never mentioned Mary at all. I guess that scripture doesn't exist. Well, Paul wrote a whole lot. I know he must have said we should venerate Mary. hmmm. He doesn't seem to even mention her by name. He refers to her as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4.
How many books did Paul write? And nowhere do we find him urging us to “venerate Mary”? I guess not, since he doesn't even speak of “Mary.”
Where Peter and Paul “true” Christians? Can we learn anything from them?
O yeah…um…let me seeYou can't even substantiate WHERE the Bible came from or what books belong in it.
But…
Maybe the rest of the forum should see what YOU know about your wacky cult:
CALet me just say this; his cult has more truth then yours.
Georg
Georg,Why am I not surprised to see you siding with the JW's?
You are two peas in a pod.
You know…inconsistencies and all…
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 26 2010,05:23) Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2010,17:01) Quote CA, Thanks for providing the abundance of contradictory statements in the Watch Tower. Now we know where David gets it from.
Thinker, find one instance where I contradict myself. (Please don't make one up.) Quotes would be nice.
Catholic apologist, you did this before a few times and I think once for this exact topic. I understand your predicament. You have no actual response on topic, no argument against clear scripture. You are as a child who calls names when backed into a corner. My next question is: Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing?
I would like you to prove me wrong. So I will ask these things again.
The earliest Christians did not seem to worship her or hold her up on a pedestal as so many do today.
I understand YOUR predicament. You can't refute the faith, so you set up a straw man so you can knock it down.We don't worship Mary.
I reject your premise.
As for Paul's non-mention of Mary, you have a faulty view of Scripture. Scripture was not intended to be a comprehensive catechesis book to find out everything you want to know about the faith.
That is what the Church was and is for.
Get in the ark of safety before it is too late.
Oh, really you don't say the Rosary anymore? Sorry it even is said on T.V. every day. Hail Maria full of Grace etc. added to the Our Father. You are denying so? Then you are not a Catholic. Or you are a liar. One or the other. As far as being the only Church n earth that is being safe is so ridiculous it makes me laugh. You certainly don't know Scriptures well enough. Take care, and keep on worship in Vain. Math. 15:9
Come out of Her my people Rev. 18:4-8
Ark of safety? No my friend that is Jesus, not a Catholic Church. You not only put Maria on a predestal but the Pope too.
IreneI had posted a couple things asking CA to comment. He did not comment (because he had no real answers) but instead attacked JW's beliefs.
I then repeated the same set of questions (a page back) and in that post I said:
My next question is: Don't you think that when you ignore clear statements and instead try to divert attention, that it is obvious you have no scriptural backing?
His response was pretty much exactly the same, once again, attacking JW's beliefs INSTEAD of answering my questions.
CA, CANNOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. His response was once again to attack me and my beliefs.
I had earlier said that there was someone I spoke to about Mary and that Mary was the only subject that was off limits for her. (She's a Catholic.) I think “Mary” is also off limits for CA.
Once again, here is what CA refuses to answer:
I would like you to prove me wrong. So I will ask these things again.
The earliest Christians did not seem to worship her or hold her up on a pedestal as so many do today.
The apostle Peter makes no mention of her at all in his inspired writings.
The apostle Paul did not use her name in his inspired letters but spoke of her only as “a woman.”—Gal. 4:4.
So, she is mentioned of course in connection with Jesus birth, but after that, she isn't mentioned very much at all. Perhaps this was done purposefully to hinder people from getting dangerously close to to worshiping her.
What example did Jesus himself set in referring to his mother?
CA, If you wonder why this question matters, it's because we claim to follow Jesus and we are to follow his example (above the popes, I'm sure you'd agree).
Luke 11:27, 28, JB:
“Now as he [Jesus] was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”This would have been the perfect, absolutely perfect moment for Jesus to show us all that we are to venerate and almost worship Mary, if that was the case.
As our exemplar, as the Son of Mary, Jesus was handed here the perfect opportunity to speak of Mary.WHAT DID JESUS DO?
He directed attention away from Mary and toward God's word.
CA, is this not what we should do?–Imitate Jesus? Instead of directing undue attention to Mary, should we not direct attention to God and his Word, as Jesus did?CA, is your answer that God “still speaks through His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.” ? ? ?
CA, if that were true, then great, but why the change of thinking? ? ? Why the flip flop from Peter and Paul who don't mention “Mary” to the now adoration and veneration of Mary? ? ?
CA, was Jesus wrong in what he did? Or are you wrong? Do Peter and Paul know more, or do you?
CA, no one would ever accuse Peter or Paul of worshiping Mary. Yet today, Catholics are often accused of this.
Why the change? ? ?
Why the change?
CA, where the inspired Bible writers missing something, or are you?
CA, what does it say that you can't answer these questions? What will people think about you?
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