I'll leave the catholic church if…

[terraricca]

CA
that's the cult of 'ASTARTE” the fertility idol

Mother of god yes in the Greek and Roman mythology ,PAGAN

NOT THE TRUE GOD OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE SCRIPTURES.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 17 2010,02:54)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 16 2010,15:14) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,11:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2010,10:50) Ca, Where in the Bible does it say to worship Mary? What do Catholics call their priests?  Father.  What does Jesus say?  “Don't call anyone on earth father.  You have only one Father, in heaven.” Why did Catholics change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?  To assimilate the pagan holy day for the Sun God into Christianity. There's many more examples, should I keep going? Worshipping Mary is a grievous sin that can land you in hell. You only hate what you wrongly perceive to be the Catholic Church. Since when did they change the Our Father and Hail Mary and the Rosary?  And what about that?  We did all of that when we belonged.  So you are saying that you are not the same Church anymore?  You always stood for that.  What happened? It's not a Catholic Church anymore? JUst kidding…..It really is not funny when somebody lies to you through his teeth.  Maybe  they don't consider praying worship. who knows what he thinks…but we do know what the Catholic Church stands for.   Irene Irene, If you ever were a Catholic…which you claim you were, you would know that communicating with someone whether in heaven or earth does NOT constitute worship (latria).  Asking a friend on earth something isn't worship.  Why does it become worship when you talk to a friend in Heaven? BTW, why are you against the Our Father?  Are you THAT far gone?

who do you think is in heaven, besides the Father, Jesus, and the angels?

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,03:01)

CA that's the cult of 'ASTARTE” the fertility idol Mother of god yes in the  Greek and Roman mythology ,PAGAN NOT THE TRUE GOD OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE SCRIPTURES.

No. Please refrain from blasphemy. How can you equate the holy with the defiled?

Jesus was God in Mary's womb. Do you believe this?

[terraricca]

CA

absolutely not,Marie the virgin who was used by God to fulfill his will ,is a women of righteous acts
and as been seen with Christ all away until his dead,so she will be with Christ in heaven as one of the 144000,

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,04:11)

CA absolutely not,Marie the virgin who was used by God to fulfill his will ,is a women of righteous acts and as been seen with Christ all away until his dead,so she will be with Christ in heaven as one of the 144000,

7:1-17. This chapter consists of two visions designed to illustrate God's
protection of Christians and the happy circumstances of the martyrs.
The victory of the Church is depicted–of the entire Church, made up of
people from the four points of the compass (vv. 9-12). What is not so
clear, however, is who the one hundred and fort four thousand are,
drawn from the twelve tribes of Israel, whom an angel has marked with
the seal of the living God (vv. 1-8). Some commentators interpret them
as all being Christians of Jewish background (Judaeo-Christians).
Others say that they are those who make up the new Israel which St Paul
speaks about in Galatians 6:17; that is, all the baptized viewed first
as still engaged in their battle (vv. 1-8) and then after they have won
victory (vv. 9-17). The most plausible interpretation is that the one
hundred and forty four thousand stand for the Jews converted to
Christianity (as distinct from those not converted)–the 'remnant of
Israel' (cf. Is 4:2-4; Ezek 9; etc.). St Paul says that they prove the
irrevocable nature of God's election (cf. Rom 1l:1-5) and are the
first-fruits of the restoration which will come about at the End (cf.
Rom 11:25-32).

The hundred and forty-four thousand are included in the second vision;
they would be part of the great multitude “from all tribes and people
and tongues”. Thus, the vision in vv. 9-17 takes in the entire Church
without any distinctions, whereas the vision in vv. 1-8 can refer only
to a part of the Church–those Jews who, by becoming Christians, made
up the original nucleus of the Church. The Church admits these on the
same basis as all those who become Christians later without having had
to pass through any stage of Jewish observance…
The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) symbolizes completeness,
totality–in this instance, a huge multitude, depicted as the new
Israel. Included in this number are the descendants of Jacob who
receive Baptism, irrespective of when they do. Obviously this number is
not meant to be taken literally, as if only one hundred and forty-four
thousand people will attain salvation. In this scene all those of
Gentile background who become Christians over the course of history are
explicitly not included. They will appear in the vision which follows.

14:1-3. It is highly significant that the Lamb stands on Mount Zion, in
Jerusalem, which was where God dwelt among men according to the Old
Testament (cf. Ps 74:1; 132:14; etc.) and where, according to certain
Jewish traditions, the Messiah would appear, to join all his followers.
The assembly, then, is an idealization of the Church, protected by
Christ and gathered about him. It includes all those who belong to
Christ and to the Father and who therefore bear his mark, which shows
them to be children of God. They are so many that it is impossible to
count them, but their number is complete: they are given a symbolic
number which is 12 (the tribes of Israel) by 12 (the Apostles) by 1000
(a number indicating a huge scale): cf. Rev 7:3ff.

The one hundred and forty-four thousand are not yet in heaven (for the
loud noise comes from heaven); they are on earth, but they have been
rescued from the power of the beast (cf. 13:13-14). The verse from heaven
symbolizes the strength and power of God; and the heavenly voice speaks
with the gentleness of liturgical music. It is a new song, for it now
sings of the salvation wrought by Christ (cf. 15:34) in the same style as
the Old Testament chants the praises of God (cf., e.g., Ps 33:3; 40:2;
96:1). Only those who belong to Christ can join in this song and be
associated with the heavenly liturgy: “It is especially in the sacred
liturgy that our union with the heavenly Church is best realized; in the
liturgy, through the sacramental signs, the power of the Holy Spirit acts
on us, and with community rejoicing we celebrate together the praise of
the divine majesty; when all those of every tribe and tongue and people
and nation (cf. Rev 5:9) who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and
gathered together into one Church glorify, in one common song of praise,
the one and triune God” (“Lumen Gentium”, 50).

From Navarre Commentary

[NickHassan]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 17 2010,03:32)

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,03:01) CA that's the cult of 'ASTARTE” the fertility idol Mother of god yes in the  Greek and Roman mythology ,PAGAN NOT THE TRUE GOD OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE SCRIPTURES. No.  Please refrain from blasphemy.  How can you equate the holy with the defiled? Jesus was God in Mary's womb.  Do you believe this?

Hi CA.
Mary was not a surrogate mother.
She really was the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[terraricca]

CA

i have no clue of what you are trying to get across,could put less and show supported scriptures please,??

[mikeboll64]

Ca says: “If you ever were a Catholic…which you claim you were, you would know that communicating with someone whether in heaven or earth does NOT constitute worship (latria). Asking a friend on earth something isn't worship. Why does it become worship when you talk to a friend in Heaven?”

I believe that the Bible has something to say about trying to talk to the dead or conjure up spirits or asking the dead to pray or predict the future for you.

And what Jehovah says about this is: DON'T DO IT!

[david]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,11:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2010,10:50) Ca, Where in the Bible does it say to worship Mary? What do Catholics call their priests?  Father.  What does Jesus say?  “Don't call anyone on earth father.  You have only one Father, in heaven.” Why did Catholics change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?  To assimilate the pagan holy day for the Sun God into Christianity. There's many more examples, should I keep going? Worshipping Mary is a grievous sin that can land you in hell. You only hate what you wrongly perceive to be the Catholic Church.

I guess it depends how you define “worship” but it seems to me that there are millions of Catholics who adore, praise, honor, bow down to, kiss images of, and pray to Mary.

And it's not just in those obvious countries where they truly do worship Mary.  The most religious Catholic i've met in a long time (she basically volunteers every day helping the catholic church, and actually has files on religious ideas, so she is what I'd call a hard core Catholic) told me that “Mary” was the one subject that was off topic.  I was not allowed to mention “Mary.”

I could mention anything else, but the one sacred unmentionable topic, was Mary.

Luke 11:27, 28, JB:
“Now as he [Jesus] was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”

This was the one perfect opportunity for Jesus, our exemplar, to show us that we should give honor to Mary.  All attention was directed to her at that moment.  What did Jesus do?  He directed attention away from Mary and to God's word.

So, should we direct attention to Mary, or the Bible?  What would Jesus do?
We know what he did. It's in the Bible

david

[david]

Quote

You only hate what you wrongly perceive to be the Catholic Church.

“When I was in the convent, our mother superior told us about Catholics in Mexico who, in their devotion to Mary, were doing things that we would only do when worshipping God. We were concerned about this. We considered this practice to be unusual and unbalanced. We thought that the American practice of Catholicism was the true thing. However, many years later I realized that if you want to know what something really is, then look at how it behaves when it is in a position of power. In America, Catholics are in the minority. To see the true spirit behind Catholicism, watch what the Catholic Church does in countries where it is in power.”

When we think of Mary worship, we think, not so much of U.S., but of other countries, (spain, mexico, philipines, etc) where, as is pointed out, Catholics are in power. When they are in power, they act more freely, and we see them as they really are.

U.S. Catholics are not the majority.

When going to church (catholic church) there was Mary, and the saints. And there was Jesus on a cross. According to the BIBLE, Jesus is no helpless babe in a manger or a man dying a painful death. He is powerful and in the heavens. Yet, he is not represented as such in church. Mary is often portrayed holding him, as a helpless baby. Is there not some message in seeing these images all the time? I would have to think this would have an effect.

So, whether it is taught or not, people see things things and they learn by example:

When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her.

It smells like “worship” to me:

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”–hail holy queen, a prayer.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 17 2010,09:53)

Ca says: “If you ever were a Catholic…which you claim you were, you would know that communicating with someone whether in heaven or earth does NOT constitute worship (latria).  Asking a friend on earth something isn't worship.  Why does it become worship when you talk to a friend in Heaven?” I believe that the Bible has something to say about trying to talk to the dead or conjure up spirits or asking the dead to pray or predict the future for you. And what Jehovah says about this is:  DON'T DO IT!

So you DARE to describe those who are currently standing in heaven in the very presence of the Lord Jesus Christ DEAD?

You must also NOT believe in the union of the Body of Christ with it's Head or in the communion of the saints.

Heresy

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2010,16:42)

Quote You only hate what you wrongly perceive to be the Catholic Church. “When I was in the convent, our mother superior told us about Catholics in Mexico who, in their devotion to Mary, were doing things that we would only do when worshipping God.  We were concerned about this.  We considered this practice to be unusual and unbalanced.  We thought that the American practice of Catholicism was the true thing.  However, many years later I realized that if you want to know what something really is, then look at how it behaves when it is in a position of power.  In America, Catholics are in the minority.  To see the true spirit behind Catholicism, watch what the Catholic Church does in countries where it is in power.” When we think of Mary worship, we think, not so much of U.S., but of other countries, (spain, mexico, philipines, etc) where, as is pointed out, Catholics are in power.  When they are in power, they act more freely, and we see them as they really are. U.S. Catholics are not the majority.   When going to church (catholic church) there was Mary, and the saints.  And there was Jesus on a cross.  According to the BIBLE, Jesus is no helpless babe in a manger or a man dying a painful death.  He is powerful and in the heavens.  Yet, he is not represented as such in church.  Mary is often portrayed holding him, as a helpless baby.  Is there not some message in seeing these images all the time?  I would have to think this would have an effect. So, whether it is taught or not, people see things things and they learn by example: When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not  praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus.  He kept saying, over and over,  “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat.  People gathered around the picture.  Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary.  When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. It smells like “worship” to me: “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!  Our life, our sweetness and our hope!  To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.  To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears.  Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”–hail holy queen, a prayer.

The experiences of people or the teachings of any religious order of sisters DOES NOT constitute official Church teaching. You know that. Why do you seek to get around the rock solid official teachings of the Church?

Because you cannot refute or gainsay them.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2010,16:24)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 16 2010,11:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2010,10:50) Ca, Where in the Bible does it say to worship Mary? What do Catholics call their priests?  Father.  What does Jesus say?  “Don't call anyone on earth father.  You have only one Father, in heaven.” Why did Catholics change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?  To assimilate the pagan holy day for the Sun God into Christianity. There's many more examples, should I keep going? Worshipping Mary is a grievous sin that can land you in hell. You only hate what you wrongly perceive to be the Catholic Church. I guess it depends how you define “worship” but it seems to me that there are millions of Catholics who adore, praise, honor, bow down to, kiss images of, and pray to Mary. And it's not just in those obvious countries where they truly do worship Mary.  The most religious Catholic i've met in a long time (she basically volunteers every day helping the catholic church, and actually has files on religious ideas, so she is what I'd call a hard core Catholic) told me that “Mary” was the one subject that was off topic.  I was not allowed to mention “Mary.” I could mention anything else, but the one sacred unmentionable topic, was Mary. Luke 11:27, 28, JB: “Now as he [Jesus] was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’” This was the one perfect opportunity for Jesus, our exemplar, to show us that we should give honor to Mary.  All attention was directed to her at that moment.  What did Jesus do?  He directed attention away from Mary and to God's word. So, should we direct attention to Mary, or the Bible?  What would Jesus do?   We know what he did.  It's in the Bible david

“Still happier”

Yes, Mary is happy. But you…

How does this downplay or rebuke devotion to Mary?

BTW, who do YOU say Mary is? Did she give birth to God?

[terraricca]

CA
what does

[mikeboll64]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,06:02)

So you DARE to describe those who are currently standing in heaven in the very presence of the Lord Jesus Christ DEAD? You must also NOT believe in the union of the Body of Christ with it's Head or in the communion of the saints. Heresy

[/QUOTE]

Ca

Show me a Scripture that says people go to heaven when they die.

I can show you many that say the dead are conscious of nothing.

[942767]

Hi CA:

If you are saying that Mary and the saints are in heaven, what about the following scriptures?

1 Thes 4

Quote

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[princess of the king]

CA,

with your church attendance down and your papa in shame, do you really think you are going to gain members to fill your church dowry with the attitude that you have?

do have one question for you though, why no meat during lent ? is this a oral tradition, if your papa put in place why? what does it bring forth in blessings?

[terraricca]

pk

THE REASON FOR CATHOLIC TO EAT FISF WAS ECONOMIC ONE,

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,12:52)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,06:02) So you DARE to describe those who are currently standing in heaven in the very presence of the Lord Jesus Christ DEAD? You must also NOT believe in the union of the Body of Christ with it's Head or in the communion of the saints. Heresy [/QUOTE] Ca Show me a Scripture that says people go to heaven when they die. I can show you many that say the dead are conscious of nothing.

The claim that the Bible is a complete guide creates an insurmountable problem owing to the fact that it (the Bible) expressly declares that it is not complete.

All that is in the Bible is true, but not all that is true is to be found written in the Bible.

Christ commanded his apostles to teach mankind “all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20). Yet St. John concludes his Gospel by saying, “There are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written” (John 21:25).

One who declares that the Bible by itself is a complete guide is therefore professing a doctrine not only NOT contained in the Bible, but one at variance with it.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2010,19:28)

pk THE REASON FOR CATHOLIC TO EAT FISF WAS ECONOMIC ONE,

Ignorance. Did you notice the Greek Orthodox eating shellfish earlier this week? Fish was techinically not meat.

Fasting was and is the issue. Not clam bakes

[Author]

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