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Quote (Stu @ Dec. 03 2009,17:13) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 03 2009,10:22) Hi Stu: You say:
Quote Christians are so full of the the implied threats of their deity, but will never say what it is that they think will actually happen. I think that is mainly because it is a dark age game of bluff they are playing. No, not a bluff, and since I already know the truth, why should I listen to something from you that contradicts the truth.
If one of the reasons that you keep hanging on here, is to convince me that you have the truth. You are wasting your time.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You define truth to be what you want it to be. We all do that, but you actively ignore what others have to say that contradicts your 'truth'. It is both a pure and an absurd thing you believe, untainted by reality.You have still not told me what it is that Judeo-christian mythology is actually threatening me with. A load of hot air, by what you have been writing.
Stuart
Hi Stu:In the securlar society in which we live, there are laws by which the citizens abide. If they break the law, the punishment is according to the crime committed.
This world belongs to God and is temporary existing so that God can call men into a personal relationship with Him through his provision, forgiving them all of their sins, and eternal life in the world to come. God wanted for men to have the freedom to choose whether or not they wanted to serve Him and live in his house forever. It is a choice.
However, if someone chooses not to be reconciled to God and live by his principles. He will live in God house only until his physical death and will die in his transgressions of God's laws, spiritually separated from God. As we said, in the secular society that we live, if we break the law, the punishment that is given is based on the crime committed. And in God's house, the punishment will also be according to the crime or crimes committed.
God's Word states that men who die in their sins will be judged and punished according to the life that they lived in this world.
I don't know what punishment that will entail in your case if you die in your sins. But God is a God of justice, and will you will be held accountable for the life that you lived.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Here's the problem with your scenario. When humans break human laws — and get caught — they are arrested and go to court. If they are found guilty, they are sentenced in some manner. All of this is carried out publicly, and the consequences are easy to see. However, with your god, the consequences are at best imagined because no one has been able to verify them. So it is just as easily asserted that failing to give honor and praise to Vishnu will land you in eternal hot water as it is to say that failing to recognize the Abrahamic god.
None of what you assert has any real backing outside of interpretations of ancient texts.
Marty I wonder if you are familiar with Kohlberg's stages of moral development.
In his scheme, your post appears to sit around level four (Authority and social-order maintaining orientation : you posit the need for laws and their observance in order that society works, and advocate the existence of a celestial system of ethical justice administered (as kejonn says in an entirely closed way) by a god, which has a similar ring to it, however, I think actually on the divine justice point you are stuck at Kohlberg's Level One (Obedience and punishment orientation), as evinced by your statement:
Quote God's Word states that men who die in their sins will be judged and punished according to the life that they lived in this world. Now if we look at this from Kohlberg's levels five and six, we leave behind the personal consequences and law-obeying arguments and see if from a point of view of social contract and universal principle. These questions arise for me now:
What ethical right does your god have to judge? I may have broken religious laws (I guess we would need some kind of libel suit to test your accusations that I am a “sinner”), but is there not a heirarchy of wrongs here as there is in the principles that support secular justice? Should a god that has murdered maybe 32,000,000 humans be in any position to be judging my blasphemy of him? I have never murdered anyone. Even if a supernatural being is the creator of everything including us, what ethical principle says that it should be worshiped and a personal relationship developed with it? Why should this god not be on trial in the Hague? That is what we do to other murderous dictators.
You say I will be accountable, but you do not show me how your god is accountable in turn. That thinking lies at the basest level of Kohlberg's scheme.
If you live a life in fear because you fear the punishments of a god, real or imagined, then you live a life in fear and I could not respect any entity that did that to human beings.
Just as well it is all in your mind, a political invention that has proved useful in controlling people. It might be even better for you if it wasn't in your mind! Just a thought…
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 05 2009,02:35) Marty, Here's the problem with your scenario. When humans break human laws — and get caught — they are arrested and go to court. If they are found guilty, they are sentenced in some manner. All of this is carried out publicly, and the consequences are easy to see. However, with your god, the consequences are at best imagined because no one has been able to verify them. So it is just as easily asserted that failing to give honor and praise to Vishnu will land you in eternal hot water as it is to say that failing to recognize the Abrahamic god.
None of what you assert has any real backing outside of interpretations of ancient texts.
You, me, and all can live in any manner we wish. That is for each person decide. I choose to live righteously because I know there is a righteous God. Others choose not God and say that good and evil do not exist or are not real.Nobody knows for sure what the future financial situation in the world will be in say 10 years. A person might squander his money, another might put it into property, and another might invest in gold. If there was a financial crisis in 10 years, all would be affected differently. Some would weather the storm better than others. So it is with judgement.
And it will be the righteous that will inherit the earth. I look forward to that day.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2009,15:18) You, me, and all can live in any manner we wish. That is for each person decide. I choose to live righteously because I know there is a righteous God. Others choose not God and say that good and evil do not exist or are not real. Whether or not good and evil exist, how is righteousness determined? What you would call “righteous” might not be the same as another Christian who interprets scripture differently.
For instance, what is “sin” according to the New Testament?
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
Now, what is lawlessness? The Greek word is “anomia”, which basically means “a transgression of the law”. What is the “law” in the NT? Why, it is the Torah! So one can easily conclude that failing to live according to the Jewish Torah would be “sin”.
Do you follow the Torah, t8?
Quote Nobody knows for sure what the future financial situation in the world will be in say 10 years. A person might squander his money, another might put it into property, and another might invest in gold. If there was a financial crisis in 10 years, all would be affected differently. Some would weather the storm better than others. So it is with judgement. And it will be the righteous that will inherit the earth. I look forward to that day.
But that future comes and goes, and has done so throughout time. No one has come back from this heaven place to validate your claims.Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 05 2009,02:35) Marty, Here's the problem with your scenario. When humans break human laws — and get caught — they are arrested and go to court. If they are found guilty, they are sentenced in some manner. All of this is carried out publicly, and the consequences are easy to see. However, with your god, the consequences are at best imagined because no one has been able to verify them. So it is just as easily asserted that failing to give honor and praise to Vishnu will land you in eternal hot water as it is to say that failing to recognize the Abrahamic god.
None of what you assert has any real backing outside of interpretations of ancient texts.
Hi KeJohn:The consequences in the NT can not be verified because judgment in the NT will be withheld until the last day.
There are examples of God's judgment in the OT.
But I don't serve God out of fear of judgment. I serve him because I love him, and because the principles that he gives me for living my life are to my benefit.
And so, I don't have to worry whether or not the consequences can be verified. I would not want to live my life any other way. The simplicity of the gospel is to treat others they way that I would want them to treat me whether or not they treat me the way I want them to treat me.
And so, if you or anyone chooses not to be reconciled to God because the consequences cannot be verified, you're taking a tremendous risk.
From the book of revelation, the following:
Quote Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
And so, this cannot be verified, but what if it is true? Are you willing to take that risk?
Quote Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Stu @ Dec. 01 2009,21:20) Quote (princess of the king @ Dec. 01 2009,13:23) Stuart, Thank you, being sorted with Ron is such a delight for me.
Now, let me let you in on a secular note. when one accuses another without cause, it is really a deep rooted emotion of the one accusing.
With prayer and fasting Stuart, you can get through it. We could be prayer partners, that would be great. Let me know.
take care
P of the K I am so pleased to see you acknowledge that when a christian calls all and sundry 'sinners', it is an accusation that is really a deep-rooted emotion of the one doing the accusing.What can I “get through” with prayer and fasting? The last vestiges of the destruction of my humanity to the brutal human sacrifice you think I need to accept to live a meaningful existence?
I can see how the brain would need to be dumbed and subdued by ritual and starvation to believe in that.
Stuart
hey stuart,have been in thought about you today, strange as that may seem. i tend to ponder you are very neat and organized, everything having it's place.
i am sure with all the knowledge you possess, you will understand that i have considered you a universal individual. if it is labeled christian then all what you feel or think a christian is; becomes.
as you request from your readers to really think about what we believe and what god we serve, i would like to request from you if you can find any universal good in scripture.
it seems you have pulled from scripture to support your views, have you ever came across something that you would find helpful to mankind?
just a thought for the day, take care stuart.
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 04 2009,17:04) Hi KeJohn: The consequences in the NT can not be verified because judgment in the NT will be withheld until the last day.
And therein lies Christianity's biggest flaw. It is all predicated on a promise that was made almost 2000 years ago.
Quote There are examples of God's judgment in the OT. There are examples of all sorts of things in many religious texts. Do you accept the events of a Rigveda to be as true as what you find in the Christian bible?
What people want to see is something they can see for themselves, here and now.
Quote But I don't serve God out of fear of judgment. I serve him because I love him, and because the principles that he gives me for living my life are to my benefit. I can accept that if you can accept that some other people do the same thing for whatever deity they believe in. And some, like myself, do things not for love of any deity, but because of the people they love and cherish. The difference is that these people can love us back and we can see the effects of my efforts in their lives.
What effects do your actions have on God himself?
Quote And so, I don't have to worry whether or not the consequences can be verified. I would not want to live my life any other way. The simplicity of the gospel is to treat others they way that I would want them to treat me whether or not they treat me the way I want them to treat me. If this is truly the case, then why should people who don't believe in your god be punished simply because they need more than ancient words to convince them? Why would they have any desire to serve this god if he is not willing to show himself outside of the bible?
Quote And so, if you or anyone chooses not to be reconciled to God because the consequences cannot be verified, you're taking a tremendous risk. Pascal's Wager is a poor vehicle.
Quote From the book of revelation, the following: Quote Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
And so, this cannot be verified, but what if it is true? Are you willing to take that risk?
Did you know that many early scholars — and some even today — believed the events of Revelation already took place? If that is true, then you are waiting for something that has already happened.
Quote Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.Love in Christ,
Marty[/quote]
You have to understand that skeptics are not in the least bit convinced by scripture. Scripture is not unlike a book of magic. Alot of words, no visible results.Quote (Stu @ Dec. 05 2009,06:22) Marty I wonder if you are familiar with Kohlberg's stages of moral development. In his scheme, your post appears to sit around level four (Authority and social-order maintaining orientation : you posit the need for laws and their observance in order that society works, and advocate the existence of a celestial system of ethical justice administered (as kejonn says in an entirely closed way) by a god, which has a similar ring to it, however, I think actually on the divine justice point you are stuck at Kohlberg's Level One (Obedience and punishment orientation), as evinced by your statement:
Quote God's Word states that men who die in their sins will be judged and punished according to the life that they lived in this world. Now if we look at this from Kohlberg's levels five and six, we leave behind the personal consequences and law-obeying arguments and see if from a point of view of social contract and universal principle. These questions arise for me now:
What ethical right does your god have to judge? I may have broken religious laws (I guess we would need some kind of libel suit to test your accusations that I am a “sinner”), but is there not a heirarchy of wrongs here as there is in the principles that support secular justice? Should a god that has murdered maybe 32,000,000 humans be in any position to be judging my blasphemy of him? I have never murdered anyone. Even if a supernatural being is the creator of everything including us, what ethical principle says that it should be worshiped and a personal relationship developed with it? Why should this god not be on trial in the Hague? That is what we do to other murderous dictators.
You say I will be accountable, but you do not show me how your god is accountable in turn. That thinking lies at the basest level of Kohlberg's scheme.
If you live a life in fear because you fear the punishments of a god, real or imagined, then you live a life in fear and I could not respect any entity that did that to human beings.
Just as well it is all in your mind, a political invention that has proved useful in controlling people. It might be even better for you if it wasn't in your mind! Just a thought…
Stuart
Hi Stu:I have read what Kolberg has to say, but there is another motivation for obedience and that motivation is “love”, love for God and love for humanity.
To rehash a portion of my personal testimony, I was brought up a Catholic, and was married in the Asembly of God church, and I was a member of a Baptist church when I had my conversion experience. Although I had been taught about God, I did not have any evidence that what I had heard about His existence, but when my wife was going to leave me, and take my 8 year old son with her, I turned to him for help because I did not want to lose my son. Well, this was an action of desperation because I did not know if He was there to hear my prayer or not, but he heard me from heaven and He revealed Himself to me by baptizing me with the Holy Spirit.
Since my conversion experience, in studying the scriptures, and through many personal experiences in which God has corrected me, if a Father loves a child, he will correct his child for the benefit of the child, I have found that God's principles for living are for my benefit. I appreciate God delivering me from the destructive lifestyle that I had prior to knowing Him. And so, I serve Him out of the motivation of love, and not because I fear punishment.
Actually, in the NT era, God has indicated that he will judge no man, but that He has committed the judgment of man to Jesus who will judge man according to the Word of God that God has spoken to humanity through him.
As you and I have discussed before, there are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand, and you have from those things formed your opinion about God and His motives, but Jesus has told us that he has come so that we may know the heart of God. He has said that “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. And no, he is not a figment of my imagination. Jesus has suffered all that he suffered so that no one would have to be punished, and so, since he did, God has given him the right to judge those have rejected his love for them.
In the NT, the judgment will be in two phases for those who have what God has done for them in the person of Jesus Christ. First, when Jesus comes for the church, those who are alive will be judged by the seven last plagues. Those who died in their sins prior to the rapture will be raised from the dead in the second resurrection and judged according to the life that they lived. Actually,all of the citizens of the Kingdom of God will have a part in judging the dead.
As we have stated, the society in which we live has laws that we as citizens obey. Does this mean that we obey these laws because we fear punishment? No, not necessarily, it may be the motivation for obedience.
God's standards for morality are the Ten Commandments, and sin is the transgression of these laws, and so, through these laws, you can see if your have violated God's laws. Jesus who died without transgressing these laws was obeying God when he obeyed, and as I have already stated, when we have seen him by the life that he lived we have seen the heart of God.
This world belongs to God, and so, can He not do what He chooses with what belongs to Him? He is righteous in all that He does even though he does not need justify any of His actions to us.
Love in Christ,
Marty90210
Quote I have read what Kolberg has to say, but there is another motivation for obedience and that motivation is “love”, love for God and love for humanity.
You have little love for humanity! Your nasty book of mythology says that homosexuals are worthy of death, or should be put to death, and the same for non-believers, who are ‘fools’ who have done no good. I guess that means you would avoid any life-saving medication developed by an atheist because it is ‘no good’. Of course I am sure you are a very decent fellow, but wittingly or unwittingly you are attempting to lead people into something that I consider unethical, namely accepting a human sacrifice for selfish reasons, and denying the value of a free inquiring mind.Quote To rehash a portion of my personal testimony, I was brought up a Catholic, and was married in the Asembly of God church, and I was a member of a Baptist church when I had my conversion experience. Although I had been taught about God, I did not have any evidence that what I had heard about His existence, but when my wife was going to leave me, and take my 8 year old son with her, I turned to him for help because I did not want to lose my son. Well, this was an action of desperation because I did not know if He was there to hear my prayer or not, but he heard me from heaven and He revealed Himself to me by baptizing me with the Holy Spirit.
You still do not have any evidence for ‘his’ existence. Not if the word evidence has any universally respectable definition.Quote Since my conversion experience, in studying the scriptures, and through many personal experiences in which God has corrected me, if a Father loves a child, he will correct his child for the benefit of the child, I have found that God's principles for living are for my benefit. I appreciate God delivering me from the destructive lifestyle that I had prior to knowing Him. And so, I serve Him out of the motivation of love, and not because I fear punishment.
Kohlberg Three.Quote Actually, in the NT era, God has indicated that he will judge no man, but that He has committed the judgment of man to Jesus who will judge man according to the Word of God that God has spoken to humanity through him.
Kohlberg One.Quote As you and I have discussed before, there are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand, and you have from those things formed your opinion about God and His motives,
…hang on there cowboy: I have formed an opinion about your god-concept, but I do not form opinions about the motives of things that do not exist!Quote but Jesus has told us that he has come so that we may know the heart of God. He has said that “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. And no, he is not a figment of my imagination. Jesus has suffered all that he suffered so that no one would have to be punished, and so, since he did, God has given him the right to judge those have rejected his love for them.
That would be all very well if there was any evidence for it. But you can have no confidence in anything attributed to Jesus. No eyewitness ever recorded a single detail about him or what he said.Quote In the NT, the judgment will be in two phases for those who have what God has done for them in the person of Jesus Christ. First, when Jesus comes for the church, those who are alive will be judged by the seven last plagues. Those who died in their sins prior to the rapture will be raised from the dead in the second resurrection and judged according to the life that they lived. Actually,all of the citizens of the Kingdom of God will have a part in judging the dead.
What an over-complicated load of bollocks that is. Who thought of it? The MCC Laws Committee?
(This is an in-joke for those living in commonwealth countries: I am not about to begin an explanation of the laws of cricket to our American readers!)Quote As we have stated, the society in which we live has laws that we as citizens obey. Does this mean that we obey these laws because we fear punishment? No, not necessarily, it may be the motivation for obedience.
Kohlberg Four, and Kohlberg One respectively.Quote God's standards for morality are the Ten Commandments, and sin is the transgression of these laws, and so, through these laws, you can see if your have violated God's laws. Jesus who died without transgressing these laws was obeying God when he obeyed, and as I have already stated, when we have seen him by the life that he lived we have seen the heart of God.
Kohlberg One. Regarding your use of the word ‘we’, please speak for yourself. I am not part of that We and I think my position is not an unreasonable one.Quote This world belongs to God, and so, can He not do what He chooses with what belongs to Him? He is righteous in all that He does even though he does not need justify any of His actions to us.
Kohlberg One. You have not given an ethical reasoning, you have just used unsubstantiated rhetoric to insist that your immoral Imaginary Friend is something that people should worship.Of course it isn’t because actually it is not really there.
You still have a way to go to get to Kohlberg Six. Most fundamentalist christians get trapped in the selfish childhood stages of ethical thinking, at One and Two, and do not grow beyond that because of the silly religious ideas they hold.
Stuart
Quote (princess of the king @ Dec. 05 2009,12:04) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 01 2009,21:20) Quote (princess of the king @ Dec. 01 2009,13:23) Stuart, Thank you, being sorted with Ron is such a delight for me.
Now, let me let you in on a secular note. when one accuses another without cause, it is really a deep rooted emotion of the one accusing.
With prayer and fasting Stuart, you can get through it. We could be prayer partners, that would be great. Let me know.
take care
P of the K I am so pleased to see you acknowledge that when a christian calls all and sundry 'sinners', it is an accusation that is really a deep-rooted emotion of the one doing the accusing.What can I “get through” with prayer and fasting? The last vestiges of the destruction of my humanity to the brutal human sacrifice you think I need to accept to live a meaningful existence?
I can see how the brain would need to be dumbed and subdued by ritual and starvation to believe in that.
Stuart
hey stuart,have been in thought about you today, strange as that may seem. i tend to ponder you are very neat and organized, everything having it's place.
i am sure with all the knowledge you possess, you will understand that i have considered you a universal individual. if it is labeled christian then all what you feel or think a christian is; becomes.
as you request from your readers to really think about what we believe and what god we serve, i would like to request from you if you can find any universal good in scripture.
it seems you have pulled from scripture to support your views, have you ever came across something that you would find helpful to mankind?
just a thought for the day, take care stuart.
Hello P of the KYes, although I think others have much better versions of it, Matthew 7:12 is possibly the single grain of good that lies in the centre of the cankerous rot that is christianity.
I also happen to think that Phil 4:8, taken out of its context, is something worth taking to heart. Of course in his customary way, the con artist formerly known as Saul of Tarsus spoils the whole thought in the very next verse by telling everyone to follow him (and I though you were all supposed to be following Jesus!?).
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 05 2009,19:02) Quote (princess of the king @ Dec. 05 2009,12:04) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 01 2009,21:20) Quote (princess of the king @ Dec. 01 2009,13:23) Stuart, Thank you, being sorted with Ron is such a delight for me.
Now, let me let you in on a secular note. when one accuses another without cause, it is really a deep rooted emotion of the one accusing.
With prayer and fasting Stuart, you can get through it. We could be prayer partners, that would be great. Let me know.
take care
P of the K I am so pleased to see you acknowledge that when a christian calls all and sundry 'sinners', it is an accusation that is really a deep-rooted emotion of the one doing the accusing.What can I “get through” with prayer and fasting? The last vestiges of the destruction of my humanity to the brutal human sacrifice you think I need to accept to live a meaningful existence?
I can see how the brain would need to be dumbed and subdued by ritual and starvation to believe in that.
Stuart
hey stuart,have been in thought about you today, strange as that may seem. i tend to ponder you are very neat and organized, everything having it's place.
i am sure with all the knowledge you possess, you will understand that i have considered you a universal individual. if it is labeled christian then all what you feel or think a christian is; becomes.
as you request from your readers to really think about what we believe and what god we serve, i would like to request from you if you can find any universal good in scripture.
it seems you have pulled from scripture to support your views, have you ever came across something that you would find helpful to mankind?
just a thought for the day, take care stuart.
Hello P of the KYes, although I think others have much better versions of it, Matthew 7:12 is possibly the single grain of good that lies in the centre of the cankerous rot that is christianity.
I also happen to think that Phil 4:8, taken out of its context, is something worth taking to heart. Of course in his customary way, the con artist formerly known as Saul of Tarsus spoils the whole thought in the very next verse by telling everyone to follow him (and I though you were all supposed to be following Jesus!?).
Stuart
Hello Stuart,if one where to take Phil 4.8 to ensure Mat 7.12 was carried out, yes I agree that mankind would benefit.
taking Mat 7.12 by itself (universally speaking) can put a damper on things if Phil 4.8 was not in their thought process, would you not think? having a conscious so to speak would be needed.
i do not take the author of Phil to say follow me, the author seems to be relaying if you do these things as you have seen me do, it will bring peace to you.
take care stuart.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 05 2009,18:43) 90210 Quote I have read what Kolberg has to say, but there is another motivation for obedience and that motivation is “love”, love for God and love for humanity.
You have little love for humanity! Your nasty book of mythology says that homosexuals are worthy of death, or should be put to death, and the same for non-believers, who are ‘fools’ who have done no good. I guess that means you would avoid any life-saving medication developed by an atheist because it is ‘no good’. Of course I am sure you are a very decent fellow, but wittingly or unwittingly you are attempting to lead people into something that I consider unethical, namely accepting a human sacrifice for selfish reasons, and denying the value of a free inquiring mind.Quote To rehash a portion of my personal testimony, I was brought up a Catholic, and was married in the Asembly of God church, and I was a member of a Baptist church when I had my conversion experience. Although I had been taught about God, I did not have any evidence that what I had heard about His existence, but when my wife was going to leave me, and take my 8 year old son with her, I turned to him for help because I did not want to lose my son. Well, this was an action of desperation because I did not know if He was there to hear my prayer or not, but he heard me from heaven and He revealed Himself to me by baptizing me with the Holy Spirit.
You still do not have any evidence for ‘his’ existence. Not if the word evidence has any universally respectable definition.Quote Since my conversion experience, in studying the scriptures, and through many personal experiences in which God has corrected me, if a Father loves a child, he will correct his child for the benefit of the child, I have found that God's principles for living are for my benefit. I appreciate God delivering me from the destructive lifestyle that I had prior to knowing Him. And so, I serve Him out of the motivation of love, and not because I fear punishment.
Kohlberg Three.Quote Actually, in the NT era, God has indicated that he will judge no man, but that He has committed the judgment of man to Jesus who will judge man according to the Word of God that God has spoken to humanity through him.
Kohlberg One.Quote As you and I have discussed before, there are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand, and you have from those things formed your opinion about God and His motives,
…hang on there cowboy: I have formed an opinion about your god-concept, but I do not form opinions about the motives of things that do not exist!Quote but Jesus has told us that he has come so that we may know the heart of God. He has said that “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. And no, he is not a figment of my imagination. Jesus has suffered all that he suffered so that no one would have to be punished, and so, since he did, God has given him the right to judge those have rejected his love for them.
That would be all very well if there was any evidence for it. But you can have no confidence in anything attributed to Jesus. No eyewitness ever recorded a single detail about him or what he said.Quote In the NT, the judgment will be in two phases for those who have what God has done for them in the person of Jesus Christ. First, when Jesus comes for the church, those who are alive will be judged by the seven last plagues. Those who died in their sins prior to the rapture will be raised from the dead in the second resurrection and judged according to the life that they lived. Actually,all of the citizens of the Kingdom of God will have a part in judging the dead.
What an over-complicated load of bollocks that is. Who thought of it? The MCC Laws Committee?
(This is an in-joke for those living in commonwealth countries: I am not about to begin an explanation of the laws of cricket to our American readers!)Quote As we have stated, the society in which we live has laws that we as citizens obey. Does this mean that we obey these laws because we fear punishment? No, not necessarily, it may be the motivation for obedience.
Kohlberg Four, and Kohlberg One respectively.Quote God's standards for morality are the Ten Commandments, and sin is the transgression of these laws, and so, through these laws, you can see if your have violated God's laws. Jesus who died without transgressing these laws was obeying God when he obeyed, and as I have already stated, when we have seen him by the life that he lived we have seen the heart of God.
Kohlberg One. Regarding your use of the word ‘we’, please speak for yourself. I am not part of that We and I think my position is not an unreasonable one.Quote This world belongs to God, and so, can He not do what He chooses with what belongs to Him? He is righteous in all that He does even though he does not need justify any of His actions to us.
Kohlberg One. You have not given an ethical reasoning, you have just used unsubstantiated rhetoric to insist that your immoral Imaginary Friend is something that people should worship.Of course it isn’t because actually it is not really there.
You still have a way to go to get to Kohlberg Six. Most fundamentalist christians get trapped in the selfish childhood stages of ethical thinking, at One and Two, and do not grow beyond that because of the silly religious ideas they hold.
Stuart
Hi Stu:Like I said. “its your little red wagon”. I have shared the truth with you, and so, your blood is not on my hands.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 08 2009,13:18) Hi Stu: Like I said. “its your little red wagon”. I have shared the truth with you, and so, your blood is not on my hands.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I still have absolutely no idea what you mean by a little red wagon.Stuart
And what does this have to do with the thread title? Nothing. This thead went from useless, to boring, to totally off topic. Such a waste of time. Thread should be closed.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 08 2009,21:17) And what does this have to do with the thread title? Nothing. This thead went from useless, to boring, to totally off topic. Such a waste of time. Thread should be closed.
Yes, without your sparkling input it likely would have likely been the death knell for civilisation.Thank goodness you posted.
Stuart
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