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Quote Sorry David,
Truebelief4u, not being a [Jehovah's Witness], is less likely to give me a 'canned' answer. This is what I hope anyway.I'm not sure what you mean by 'canned,' Is 1:18, but I don't think you got what you wanted. I could have said what he did.
david.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 11 2006,01:24) I see it as follows: Elohim = YHWH = Holy Spirit = Word
There is only one Elohim – Almighty YHWH
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH
YAHSHUA = Man = Messiah
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Yahshua is given the title 'Word of Elohim' as he was YHWH's representative on earth and spoke YHWH's words as he was instructed (in the same way that the Angel of YHWH spoke on YHWH's behalf in the OT). YHWH is the word.
Rambling Rose, baby you hit the nail on the Head. I couldn't have said it better myself.Jesus revealed the Word of God to us. Jesus made it very clear that he didn't speak on his own accord. He spoke what the Father commanded him to speak, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:49.
Jesus IS NOT THE WORD. The Word was revealed to us THROUGH him. The WORD IS GOD!!
Quote I came to the “belief” the spirit is the “active force” used by God, and conveyed to Christ to use as well, because that is what thousands of years of history & Hebrew understanding show; because the early Christians understood it that way as well; because it is ADMITTEDLY a late 3rd/early 4th century fabrication of the Roman Church; because the Roman Church ITSELF states the doctrine is “not Biblical,” but is a product of the CHURCH'S later theological development; and finally because ALL the reputable research & evidence from Bible scholars themselves shows the Roman Church THEN busily set out to DELIBERATELY ALTER the Scripture and other early church writings in order to INSERT textual material that supported their “new developing doctrine of the trinity.” Tough to argue with that.
Quote Elohim = YHWH = Holy Spirit = Father = Word The above are all one Almighty YHWH.
Yet, interestingly, the Hebrew word Shad·dai´ and the Greek word Pan·to·kra´tor are both translated “Almighty,” and neither of those expressions are ever applied to the Son or the holy spirit. Both original-language words are repeatedly applied only to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex. 6:3; Rev. 19:6)
So, typing an “=” sign in between those words and then saying that they are all “almighty” doesn't really prove anything. The scriptures do:
Mark 13:32, RS: “Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
(Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, WHY DID THE HOLY SPIRIT NOT KNOW?)Matt. 20:20-23, RS: “The mother of the sons of Zebedee . . . said to him [Jesus], ‘Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.’ But Jesus answered, . . . ‘You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.’” (How strange, if, as claimed, Jesus is God! Was Jesus here merely answering according to his “human nature”? If, as Trinitarians say, Jesus was truly “God-man”—both God and man, not one or the other—would it truly be consistent to resort to such an explanation? Does not Matthew 20:23 rather show that the Son is not equal to the Father, that the Father has reserved some prerogatives for himself?)
Matt. 12:31, 32, RS: “Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
(If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the Trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the Son. Instead, what Jesus said shows that the Father, to whom the “Spirit” belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”
1 Cor. 11:3, RS: “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”
(Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven. And the words are quite clear.)1 Cor. 15:27, 28 RS: “‘God has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.”
Anyway, my point, once again, is that in the Bible, IN THE BIBLE, only Jehovah is referred to specifically as being “Almighty.” Why? Because He 'alone is the most high.' (Ps 83:18) Where does it say that Jesus alone is the most high? Where does it say that the holy spirit is the most high, that the holy spirit “alone” is the most high? It doesn't. Why? Why does it only say this of the Father?
Quote there is nothing I can find in Scripture to indicate he was anything other than a pretty normal child/adult UNTIL he was baptized and received the spirit.
Indeed, the Bible says he “became flesh.” He was truly flesh, human. But when he was baptized, the heavens were opened to him. Notice though, that before performing miracles, he still prayed to his Father, as did the prophets.Truebelief4u
I understand Messiah to have been born filled with Holy Spirit in the same way that John the Baptist was. This empowered them with the knowledge of their path in life – John’s role being different to that of Yahshua. Even at the age of 12 when he remained at Jerusalem he was amongst his fathers (teachers) talking and discussing the ways of YHWH. They were amazed at his knowledge and I would understand this greater wisdom to be due to the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being upon him.
I understand being filled with the Spirit of God also being understood to mean that you have a greater understanding of YHWH and his ways. The disciples never seemed to understand it all until they received the Holy Spirit and then it all seemed to come together for them and they new so much more. Their minds/belief/understanding was now in alignment with that of Almighty YHWH in the same manner as Yahshua. They had now become one with Yahshua and YHWH.
So, was Yahshua just a normal child. I think so except for the great amount of wisdom he possessed – a greater knowledge/understanding of YHWH his word/plan and his ways because the Spirit of God was upon him.
Very few knew Yahshua was the Messiah until he began his ministry at the age of 30 – after his baptism from John and anointing from the Father. So whilst the word/plan of God had become flesh at his conception/birth, it took 30 years before others would know of it. Therefore God's word/plan was not visible to the people until Yahshua was a man and even then, not until he began his ministry.
John 1:14-18 26-34 (especially verse 31) reflects the above thought as these verses refer to a man more so than a baby.Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 12 2006,00:12) Truebelief4u I understand Messiah to have been born filled with Holy Spirit in the same way that John the Baptist was. This empowered them with the knowledge of their path in life – John’s role being different to that of Yahshua. Even at the age of 12 when he remained at Jerusalem he was amongst his fathers (teachers) talking and discussing the ways of YHWH. They were amazed at his knowledge and I would understand this greater wisdom to be due to the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being upon him.
I understand being filled with the Spirit of God also being understood to mean that you have a greater understanding of YHWH and his ways. The disciples never seemed to understand it all until they received the Holy Spirit and then it all seemed to come together for them and they new so much more. Their minds/belief/understanding was now in alignment with that of Almighty YHWH in the same manner as Yahshua. They had now become one with Yahshua and YHWH.
So, was Yahshua just a normal child. I think so except for the great amount of wisdom he possessed – a greater knowledge/understanding of YHWH his word/plan and his ways because the Spirit of God was upon him.
Very few knew Yahshua was the Messiah until he began his ministry at the age of 30 – after his baptism from John and anointing from the Father. So whilst the word/plan of God had become flesh at his conception/birth, it took 30 years before others would know of it. Therefore God's word/plan was not visible to the people until Yahshua was a man and even then, not until he began his ministry.
John 1:14-18 26-34 (especially verse 31) reflects the above thought as these verses refer to a man more so than a baby.
Ramblirose,
I don't see in the scriptures where it says that the Messiah was filled with the Spirit from birth, but I do know that sin seperates us from YHWH and that the Messiah was born without sin. My point is that His knowledge of the Almighty would of been unhindered because He knew no sin, and was seperate from sinners (2 Cor 5:21,Heb.7:26). Isa 59:1-2 makes it clear that sin seperates.Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save;
Nor His ear heavy,
That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.Quote Rambling Rose, baby you hit the nail on the Head. I couldn't have said it better myself. Jesus revealed the Word of God to us. Jesus made it very clear that he didn't speak on his own accord. He spoke what the Father commanded him to speak, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:49.
Jesus IS NOT THE WORD. The Word was revealed to us THROUGH him. The WORD IS GOD!!
First off, the word “word” is used with reference to more than one thing in the Bible. We must not oversimplify this.
“The word of Jehovah” is an expression that, with slight variations, occurs hundreds of times in the Scriptures.
The ten commandments were known as the ten words, or just as the words. The Bible itself is called God's Word.And speaking of Jesus, REVELATION 19:13 states:
“and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.”
The apostle John identified the one to whom this title belongs, namely, Jesus, he being so designated not only during his ministry on earth as a perfect man but also during his prehuman spirit existence as well as after his exaltation to heaven.You say “Jesus is not the word.” “The word is God.”
But this reference in John 1:1 in referring to the word being God was talking about Jesus, so why say the word is not Jesus? Even if you believe Jesus and God are one and the same, it still makes no sense. If one is the Word, would the other not be too?The Emphatic Diaglott reads: “In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.” (John 1:1)
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 12 2006,23:55) Sultan I don't believe anyone is born with sin, but that is another topic.
Ramblinrose,If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John.1:8-10)
Only the Messiah was born without sin, because God was His Father.
Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2006,17:21) Quote Sorry David,
Truebelief4u, not being a [Jehovah's Witness], is less likely to give me a 'canned' answer. This is what I hope anyway.I'm not sure what you mean by 'canned,' Is 1:18
It means that, on online theological message boards, the Watchtower are notable for submitting answers that are pre-written by one of their scholars when the inevitable objections to their teachings are made. Aside from being a dishonest way to debate people (especially when their sources are not acknowledged) it's also intellectual cowardice.Is 1:18, If the answers are right, what does it matter where they came from?
Does their logic and truthfulness bother you? Or is it the fact that you really can't dispute their reasoning? I realize it makes it much harder for you. You've already complained about a couple times before.Is 1:18, there are certain subjects that I would like to explore on here, see what people think, how they reason, what people's beliefs are and why. But on certain subjects, I've studied them at length instead of disucss something in a change of one paragraph to one paragraph, I know most everything I will say in the conversation if it draws out, so I tend to just put everything down. Maybe I shouldn't.
Is 1:18, I have several files on all kinds of subjects, that I've created.
If you ask me something about….heaven, for example, and I've already done the research and have every scripture about heaven organized, why not go to that file, rather than make stuff up on the spot, or try to remember all the scriptures that apply?And did you get what you wanted, a non-canned answer? It seems he said a lot of what I would have said and quoted a lot of reasoning from Jehovah's Witnesses.
david
Quote Ramblinrose, If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John.1:8-10)
Only the Messiah was born without sin, because God was His Father.
Sultan
A newborn baby cannot make a claim, it cannot even speak nor has it had a chance to sin. This verse is speaking about adults who have a choice to follow YHWH or not. It is not speaking of newly born children.
Everybody is born with a choice to sin or not – to follow YHWH or not. Yahshua chose to live in complete surrender to YHWH Elohim and lived a sinless life.
We are not born with sin, we are born with the choice to sin or follow the ways of YHWH.
Quote Is 1:18, If the answers are right, what does it matter where they came from?
It matters, David, because to plagerise another's material without ever citing the REAL author is DECEITFUL. Did you know that, in most theological MBs, a breach like this is usually followed by an instant and permanently ban. In fact I once observed someone nearly lose their membership status for cutting their OWN material from one MB and pasting it in another without aknowledging the original source, even though he WAS the author!Quote Does their logic and truthfulness bother you? Or is it the fact that you really can't dispute their reasoning? I realize it makes it much harder for you.
…..had to have a chuckle at this. Suffice to say that in terms of 'degree difficulty' the Watchtower adherents are not top of the pile in online theological debates. Like i've previously written “you can drive a bus through some of the holes in JW theology.” So no David I do not find you a formidable presence on HN, hope I haven't burst your bubble.
Quote Is 1:18, there are certain subjects that I would like to explore on here, see what people think, how they reason, what people's beliefs are and why. But on certain subjects, I've studied them at length instead of disucss something in a change of one paragraph to one paragraph, I know most everything I will say in the conversation if it draws out, so I tend to just put everything down. Maybe I shouldn't.
I read this through two or three times and still can't understand what on earth your trying to convey. Mind you after driving 1000km over 3 days with two hyperactive kids in the back seat I am very very tired…..Quote Is 1:18, I have several files on all kinds of subjects, that I've created.
If you ask me something about….heaven, for example, and I've already done the research and have every scripture about heaven organized, why not go to that file, rather than make stuff up on the spot, or try to remember all the scriptures that apply?
I commend you for your diligence.Quote And did you get what you wanted, a non-canned answer? It seems he said a lot of what I would have said and quoted a lot of reasoning from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Actually no I didn't get what I wanted. I asked Truebelief4 if he would allow me to test his hypothesis, not for an explanation of how he came to that conclusion. Anyway, I'll take that up with him or her tomorrow night….I'm off to bed.Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 13 2006,02:38) Quote Ramblinrose, If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John.1:8-10)
Only the Messiah was born without sin, because God was His Father.
Sultan
A newborn baby cannot make a claim, it cannot even speak nor has it had a chance to sin. This verse is speaking about adults who have a choice to follow YHWH or not. It is not speaking of newly born children.
Everybody is born with a choice to sin or not – to follow YHWH or not. Yahshua chose to live in complete surrender to YHWH Elohim and lived a sinless life.
We are not born with sin, we are born with the choice to sin or follow the ways of YHWH.
Ramblinrose,
Can you give me the Bible verse (s) that support your theory.The Bible says:
The wicked are estranged from the womb;They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Ps.58:3)f
Quote (truebelief4u @ Feb. 11 2006,01:06) And how the heck do ya change the clock on this infernal machine anyway……it's the 10th, not the 11th!!!!!!!!!! Arrrgggghhhhhh. 
The Board is set to New Zealand time, which is 12 hours ahead of GMT.
What has Is 1:18 got to do with any of this?
Is 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.How does this relate to 1st John 5:7?
David……Is 1:18 is a name? How do you figure that?
The topic is 1st John 5:7….a verse which wasn't even in the text until the 16th century. This verse, along with Matthew 28:19 are the primary verses the “trinitarians” attempt to use to support their defense of the “trinity.” The problem is, BOTH of these verses are deliberate additions to the text, inserted by the Roman Church, in order to provide support for their “trinity” doctrine….NEITHER verse is authentic original text material (and the trinitarian wording of Matthew 28:19 is not found in any manuscript prior to the 4th century). See:
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm
http://english.sdaglobal.org/research/mt2819.htmThe Roman Church had a great propensity to simply “change the text” to suit themselves, and the Protestants adopted most of these without examination or question when the Catholic/Protestant schism came along in the 15th-17th centuries……most “Protestants” haven't got a clue their doctrines are nearly all direct implants from the Roman Church.
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