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Adam.
Accusing me of being biased makes you look like a hypocrite. As Jesus taught, You should remove the beam from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your brothers.
It is up to me and you to check our own hearts with the guidance of God.
You did not answer my points about Isaiah and you have not spoken why you choose to believe the teachings of those whom are descended from the Pharisee tradition. I freely admit that Christians did not follow that false tradition of God. Even Jesus declared that in scripture.
I challenge you to look at Isaiah 49 and read verse 5 which clearly states God formed the Messiah in the womb to be his servant in order to bring the nation of Jacob back to him and gather the nation of Israel to him. It is obviously not speaking Of Israel-Judah as they are the ones being saved and not the one God formed to do the saving. In verse six the “servant” is also made a light to the Gentiles.
In verse 1 of Chapter 50 we are told “Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.” Who do you think that refers to? It is obviously not God servant or at least a loyal servant.
In Chapter 53 verse 5 we are told the servant was “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities”. I wonder whose transgression the servant was pieced for? Could it speaking about those spoke about in Chapter 50 verse 1?
Now lets go back to Chapter 50 and look at verse 5 which states “The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back.” That does not sound like he was speaking of the same party he addressed in verse 1.
There is a warning for those who prefer to reject what is clear in scripture and fill it with their own words at the end of Chapter 50 and it is.
Isaiah 50:11(NIV) reads:
Quote But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.As for me I will follow the Lord and listen to the blessing one verse earlier.
Isaiah 50:10(NIV) reads:
Quote Who among you fears the LORD
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let him who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the LORD
and rely on his God.Adam………The suffering Servant is Not Israel because they never obeyed GOD, they were rebellious and God cast them out of their land for that reason, hardly a picture of a suffering (SERVANT) Kerwin does have a point here brother. Adam you must remember the Jews (overall) reject Jesus and the New Testament. We are warned to beware of the leavening of the Jews.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 31 2010,01:31) Adam………The suffering Servant is Not Israel because they never obeyed GOD, they were rebellious and God cast them out of their land for that reason, hardly a picture of a suffering (SERVANT) Kerwin does have a point here brother. Adam you must remember the Jews (overall) reject Jesus and the New Testament. We are warned to beware of the leavening of the Jews. peace and love to you and yours Adam………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for your post above. Infact there are so many arguments against Jesus' death could be taken as vicarious sacrifice for the atonement of sins. Please read the following;Missionary apologist Walter Riggans recognized this problem when he admitted, “Let me repeat this point: there is no self-evident blueprint in the Hebrew Bible which can be said to unambiguously point to Jesus. Only after one has come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and more specifically the kind of Messiah that he is, does it all begin to make sense and hang together.” (Yehoshua Ben David, Olive Press 1995, p.155).
Suffering Servant – Isaiah 52/53
Isaiah tells us that the Servant will be universally despised and rejected (53:3). While this has certainly been true for the Jewish people, the Christian Bible describes Jesus as immensely popular (Luke 2:52, 4:14-15, Mark 3:8-9, etc.).
The future course of history only saw a rise in Jesus’ stock. Isaiah’s Servant is to be rewarded with long life and many children (53:10). This was certainly not the fate of Jesus who died young and childless.
The missionary’s greatest difficulty is posed by Isaiah’s declaration that the suffering Servant is actually a group of people, and not an individual (“…as a result of the transgression of my people, they were afflicted.” 53:8). We must understand that missionaries employ Isaiah 53 not only to validate their claim that Jesus is the Messiah. They rely on this passage to delineate the essential mission of the Messiah: to die as a vicarious sacrifice in order to atone for the sins of the world. This idea has three critical flaws.
1.The traditional Jewish concept of the Messiah as the Davidic king who will reign over a redeemed world of universal peace and universal knowledge of G-d is substantiated by dozens of passages throughout the Bible. The Christian messianic concept hangs entirely upon our controversial passage in Isaiah, and has no external corroboration.
2. The Christian messianic notion is based upon a subtle mistranslation. Isaiah 53:5 does not say, “He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities”, which could convey a vicarious suffering. Rather, the text properly translated reads, “He was wounded from our transgressions, crushed from our iniquities.” This certainly does not convey that the Servant suffered to atone for the sins of others, but rather that the Servant suffered as a result of the sinfulness of others. This distinction is crucial!
3. Christian belief maintains that not only does the Messiah come to atone for sin, but also, the only way for humans to atone for sin is through belief in the Messiah’s vicarious sacrifice on their behalf. This idea directly contradicts Biblical teaching on many fronts. Here are just some of them.
The Bible rejects the concept of an innocent person dying in place of a guilty one (Exodus 32:32-33, Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1-4).
Biblical sacrifices, in and of themselves, are never sufficient to atone for our sins (Proverbs 15:8, Isaiah 1:11-16, Amos 5:22-24, Micah 6:6-8).
The Bible strongly prohibits human sacrifice (Genesis 22:10-13, Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10).
Since G-d promises forgiveness to all who sincerely repent of their sins and return to Him, there is no need for the Messiah to atone for us (II Chronicles 7:14, Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33, Jeremiah 36:3, Isaiah 55:6-7, Jonah 3:6-10, Daniel 4:27, Hoseah 14:1-3, Proverbs 16:6).
Not only does Isaiah 53 never mention the need to believe in the suffering of G-d’s Servant, but there isn’t even one reference in the entire Bible to believing in the Messiah as one’s personal saviour from sin.
What Paul Thought
The Apostle Paul is forced to concede that a crucified Messiah who doesn’t reign over a redeemed utopian world is totally out of sync with what Jewish readers of the Bible had always understood (I Corinthians 1:23).
Source: http://www.jew-jew.com/jews4judaism/The-Suffering-Servant.php
Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2010,01:01) Adam. Accusing me of being biased makes you look like a hypocrite. As Jesus taught, You should remove the beam from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your brothers.
It is up to me and you to check our own hearts with the guidance of God.
You did not answer my points about Isaiah and you have not spoken why you choose to believe the teachings of those whom are descended from the Pharisee tradition. I freely admit that Christians did not follow that false tradition of God. Even Jesus declared that in scripture.
I challenge you to look at Isaiah 49 and read verse 5 which clearly states God formed the Messiah in the womb to be his servant in order to bring the nation of Jacob back to him and gather the nation of Israel to him. It is obviously not speaking Of Israel-Judah as they are the ones being saved and not the one God formed to do the saving. In verse six the “servant” is also made a light to the Gentiles.
In verse 1 of Chapter 50 we are told “Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.” Who do you think that refers to? It is obviously not God servant or at least a loyal servant.
In Chapter 53 verse 5 we are told the servant was “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities”. I wonder whose transgression the servant was pieced for? Could it speaking about those spoke about in Chapter 50 verse 1?
Now lets go back to Chapter 50 and look at verse 5 which states “The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back.” That does not sound like he was speaking of the same party he addressed in verse 1.
There is a warning for those who prefer to reject what is clear in scripture and fill it with their own words at the end of Chapter 50 and it is.
Isaiah 50:11(NIV) reads:
Quote But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.As for me I will follow the Lord and listen to the blessing one verse earlier.
Isaiah 50:10(NIV) reads:
Quote Who among you fears the LORD
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let him who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the LORD
and rely on his God.
Hi brother Kerwin,
These are few arguments for you…
if you insist that what the Bible says, it can say only by grammatico-historical interpretation, and you are hell-bent on finding Jesus in the Old Testament, you are inevitably going to assume that all of Matthew's Old Testament citations represent the literal, authorial intention of the Old Testament writers. And since any straightforward reading of the Old Testament texts in question makes it apparent that no such reference to Jesus was in view, the appeal to prophecy becomes something quite different from what it was either for Matthew (who sought to prove nothing by it) or for ancient and medieval apologists who had completely lost sight of the historic meaning of the Old Testament texts or were more interested in imaginary “deeper” levels of meaning. Now you had the spectacle of exegetes who insisted on the literal, grammatico-historical meaning of Old Testament text as well as New Testament text– and had their work cut out for them since the two seldom seemed to agree. This means, in short, that the appeal to prophecy had passed from the offensive to the defensive: to square the Old Testament “prediction” with the New Testament “fulfillment,” you had to try to show they agreed despite appearances. In other words, the proof from prophecy had become but another case of harmonizing apparent contradictions in the text.And harmonized contradictions can never be the basis of appeal for assertions as dubious as they. You cannot get very far appealing to something as evidence which you have just admitted does not look like evidence but may be read that way if you try hard enough.
Though I have never run across an apologist (certainly there may be some) who is even aware of the original contexts and meanings of the passages I have reviewed above, I can imagine the strategy of such an apologist would be to charge that scholars have just invented all these clever categories (“birth oracles,” “lament psalms,” etc.) to evade the force of messianic prophecy. Why anyone would do that is beyond me. In any case, such a desperate suggestion has to come to grips with the wider utility of the categories. That is, if these form-critical categories are mere exegetical phantoms invented to make mischief for apologetics, why do they, how can they, make so much sense in illuminating the sense of many other similar Old Testament texts which are irrelevant to the apologetics debate? The categories in which I have placed most of the major “messianic” texts do not exist for the sake of denying the texts to apologetical use. They exist as an interpretive tool for a much broader selection of texts in their own right.
(taken from an article on 'Critical study of the Bible').Peace to you
AdamAdam,
I am not sure what mystical point of view you can use to look at the servant mentioned in Isaiah 53 and believe that servant is Israel. I will not state there is none, though I have my doubts based on the context but mysticism is often mystifying to me. I do not argue that Matthew uses literal or even figurative interpretation of the Old Testament as he appears fond of a mystical point of view.
One example of such a mystical point of view is the Jewish interpretation of the Songs of Solomon where the bridegroom is God and the bride is Israel-Judah.
Another example is put forth in this Essay where a rabbi points out the symbolism of the burning bush.
Quote (gollamudi @ May 26 2010,16:04) Quote (942767 @ May 26 2010,08:16) Hi Adam: You say:
Quote Hi brother Marty,
Thanks again for your reply. I only intended that the Jewish Messiah was never understood in terms of sinlessness. Infact he can be a human like us who could sin and be forgiven by God. The Christian mythology of sinless Messiah and virginborn Messiah made Christianity equalent to a Pagan religion than the Monotheism of Hebrew Bible.Peace and love to you
AdamThen what about Isaiah 53?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Here is the Jewish view of Isaih 53.Isaiah 53
Christian Claim: The Christian Bible mentions Isaiah 53 in three places:
– Luke 22.37
– Acts 8.32-33
– 1 Peter 2.22This chapter in Isaiah has been established by Christians as the “suffering servant” chapter. To Christians, it is an explicit prophecy of Jesus, who suffered for the sins of others on the cross. It allegedly contains several key indicators that leave no doubt in Christian minds as to its reference to Jesus.
Jewish Refutation: While Christians believe their case for Isaiah 53 representing Jesus is absolutely supported by the verses, a more careful and serious reading of Isaiah 53 will inevitably support no such belief.
Isaiah 53 in the broader scope of the Tanach tells us of a nation that suffered at the hands of others for many years. It tells of a people stricken by G-d with famine and disease, and a people who continued on and on without ever abandoning its heritage completely. It is the story of how the nations bruised and scarred that people, for they thought it was right to do so. Yet they were astonished in the end to find out how wrong they were. Only in the era of Israel's final redemption did the nations begin to understand how all of Israel's suffering was on their behalf. Israel represented the peoples of the world before G-d and was punished in their stead, for their sins. It was Israel's job to see to it that the world became a place where G-d was welcomed among all. They were to be a light unto the gentiles (Isaiah 42.6, Isaiah 60.3), and when they failed to be that, they were held responsible for the nations' failures.
The Jewish view of Isaiah 53 is supported extensively in several ways. The following paragraphs contain some of the more outstanding reasons why the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 is in complete harmony with the Jewish scriptures. There are more reasons for such, but a more complete examination of this issue is beyond the scope of this FAQ. For a more comprehensive presentation of the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 in accordance with the Jewish scriptures, you are invited to read Michoel Drazin's book “Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive Refutation of Christian Missionaries” at his website.
1 – For one thing, the “servant” spoken of in Isaiah 53 was already identified throughout the book of Isaiah. Would G-d suddenly change his subject for one chapter within the book of Isaiah? The rational individual would answer in the negative.
Isaiah 41.8: “But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend.”
Isaiah 41.9: “Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art My servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”
Isaiah 43.10: “You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen …”
Isaiah 44.1: “But now hear, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen.”
Isaiah 44.21: “Remember these things, O Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant. I formed you, you are My servant, O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.”
Isaiah 45.4: “For the sake of My servant, Jacob, and My chosen, Israel, I call you by your name …”
Isaiah 48.20: “Go forth from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it forth to the end of the earth, say: 'The Lord has redeemed His servant, Jacob'.”
Isaiah 49.3: “And He said to me: 'You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified'.”
2 – The following verse eliminates Jesus as the subject of Isaiah 53:
Isaiah 42.19: “Who is blind but My servant, or deaf as My messenger, whom I send? Who is blind as My dedicated one, or blind as the servant of the Lord?”
If we accept that the chapters leading up to Isaiah 53 are consistent in their message, Isaiah 42.19 poses a dilemma for any Christian who wants to call Jesus the servant of G-d in reference to Isaiah's prophecies.
3 – Chapter 53 in Isaiah contains an abundance of indicators that incontrovertibly invalidate Jesus as the subject. Here follow some such indicators:
(a) Isaiah 53.3: “A man of pains and acquainted with disease …”
In the Christian Bible, Jesus was not said to have been afflicted with any disease, and the only time he could have felt any pain was on the cross. Isaiah 53.3 is referring to pain that is continuous and which spans a lifetime, for the entire chapter speaks of a matter that took place over time, and not an isolated event.
(b) Isaiah 53.7: “And opened not his mouth, like a lamb that is led to the slaughter … yea, he opened not his mouth.”
This could not have been referring to Jesus due to the following Christian Bible verses:
Matthew 27.46: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani'? that is to say, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me'?”
Matthew 26.39: “And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'.”
According to these verses, the Christian Bible recorded that Jesus did not go so willingly to his death, and did speak out in protest against it.
© Isaiah 53.9: “Although he had done no violence …”
In the Christian Bible, it is recorded that Jesus was indeed violent:
Matthew 21.12: “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves.”
(d) Isaiah 53.10: “To see if his soul would offer itself in restitution …”
Was it possible that the Christian god would not offer itself for the good of all of mankind? Was the Christian god testing the Christian god?
(e) Isaiah 53.10: “That he might see his seed, prolong his days …”
Even though the Christian Bible claims that Jesus did offer his soul for restitution, Jesus had no offspring, and his days were not prolonged.
(f) Isaiah 53.12: “Therefore, I will divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty …”
Would the Christian god's reward for offering himself to himself be a mere portion among the great? Who were the other “greats” who were to share the reward with him? Were they equal to him? And if he receievd a portion, then wasn't the one distributing it greater than he?
Thus, it is clear from the proofs presented above that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Jesus. It makes far better sense when the subject of that chapter is Israel, who as a nation watched its seed carrying on from generation to generation despite attempts by the nat
ions to destroy it. Israel suffered the sins of all, for they were G-d's model people affected by every wrong that occurred in the world. Israel is and always has been G-d's chosen servant, and there is no other.Deuteronomy 7.6: “For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy G-d; the Lord thy G-d hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Him, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”
Source: http://chelm.freeyellow.com/page13.html
Hope this will clear your doubts on Isaih 53.
Peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,When someone asks you a question, why do you Post what 'the traditions of men' say?
If you don't believe “The Bible” why don't you just say you don't?Hi brother EDJ,
I believe Bible not the way many believe here as inerrant word of God but as God's words narrated by erring humans.Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2010,21:33) Hi brother EDJ,
I believe Bible not the way many believe here as inerrant word of God but as God's words narrated by erring humans.
Hi Adam,“The Bible” says: Jesus=74 is the “Messiah”=74 [יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh
You seem to deny this; NO?Ed J
Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2010,22:23) Only Christian Bible says so.
Hi Adam,So then you admit you don't believe “all” 66 Books of “The Bible”=63; the word of “YHVH=63?
Ed J
Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2010,22:45) I don't believe what Christianity says so.
Hi Adam,So then you admit you are NOT a “Christian”?
Ed J
Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2010,17:23) Only Christian Bible says so.
That is untrue as people also declare and mean Jesus is LordThe question is not whether the New or/and Old Testament state Jesus is the Anointed one anyways. The question is whether God does and if he does then do you believe him.
That is why I have striven to point out to you what God states and Satan has whispered in your ear did God really say that. I assure you Satan made that same argument with Eve and he is still making it today.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (Ed J @ June 01 2010,23:14) Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2010,22:45) I don't believe what Christianity says so.
Hi Adam,So then you admit you are NOT a “Christian”?
Ed J
What difference it makes. I worship God of Hebrews.Hi GM,
You are not a jew and the temple curtain is torn.
God has shown much more in the new and that upsets those who prefer the old wine.Quote (gollamudi @ June 02 2010,15:49) Quote (Ed J @ June 01 2010,23:14) Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2010,22:45) I don't believe what Christianity says so.
Hi Adam,So then you admit you are NOT a “Christian”?
Ed J
What difference it makes. I worship God of Hebrews.
Hi Adam,A “Christian” is a follower of Christ.
Are you a Christian?Ed J
Quote (gollamudi @ June 02 2010,17:08) Hi brother EDJ,
I think I have already replied your query.
Hi Adam,You actually dodged the question twice now.
If you aren't, why don't you just say so?Ed J
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