- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2010,21:35) Quote (gollamudi @ May 25 2010,15:09) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2010,19:19) Quote (gollamudi @ May 25 2010,13:25) Please read the whole article which you quoted from Wikipedea you will realise that there is nothing so special about human Messiah and about the title it is even given to any human who is faithful to God.
This Rabbi disagrees with you.
It's only your claim not that Rabbi's.You need to read again.
I gave you the wrong source.The argument is that the Jews do regard the Son of David as special amoung the anointed ones and so refer to him as The Messiah.
Certainly the Jewish Messiah will be a special one whom God choose. But can never beat the one whom Christianity invented.Hi Adam:
You say:
Quote Hi brother Marty,
Thanks again for your reply. I only intended that the Jewish Messiah was never understood in terms of sinlessness. Infact he can be a human like us who could sin and be forgiven by God. The Christian mythology of sinless Messiah and virginborn Messiah made Christianity equalent to a Pagan religion than the Monotheism of Hebrew Bible.Peace and love to you
AdamThen what about Isaiah 53?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 26 2010,08:16) Hi Adam: You say:
Quote Hi brother Marty,
Thanks again for your reply. I only intended that the Jewish Messiah was never understood in terms of sinlessness. Infact he can be a human like us who could sin and be forgiven by God. The Christian mythology of sinless Messiah and virginborn Messiah made Christianity equalent to a Pagan religion than the Monotheism of Hebrew Bible.Peace and love to you
AdamThen what about Isaiah 53?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Here is the Jewish view of Isaih 53.Isaiah 53
Christian Claim: The Christian Bible mentions Isaiah 53 in three places:
– Luke 22.37
– Acts 8.32-33
– 1 Peter 2.22This chapter in Isaiah has been established by Christians as the “suffering servant” chapter. To Christians, it is an explicit prophecy of Jesus, who suffered for the sins of others on the cross. It allegedly contains several key indicators that leave no doubt in Christian minds as to its reference to Jesus.
Jewish Refutation: While Christians believe their case for Isaiah 53 representing Jesus is absolutely supported by the verses, a more careful and serious reading of Isaiah 53 will inevitably support no such belief.
Isaiah 53 in the broader scope of the Tanach tells us of a nation that suffered at the hands of others for many years. It tells of a people stricken by G-d with famine and disease, and a people who continued on and on without ever abandoning its heritage completely. It is the story of how the nations bruised and scarred that people, for they thought it was right to do so. Yet they were astonished in the end to find out how wrong they were. Only in the era of Israel's final redemption did the nations begin to understand how all of Israel's suffering was on their behalf. Israel represented the peoples of the world before G-d and was punished in their stead, for their sins. It was Israel's job to see to it that the world became a place where G-d was welcomed among all. They were to be a light unto the gentiles (Isaiah 42.6, Isaiah 60.3), and when they failed to be that, they were held responsible for the nations' failures.
The Jewish view of Isaiah 53 is supported extensively in several ways. The following paragraphs contain some of the more outstanding reasons why the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 is in complete harmony with the Jewish scriptures. There are more reasons for such, but a more complete examination of this issue is beyond the scope of this FAQ. For a more comprehensive presentation of the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 in accordance with the Jewish scriptures, you are invited to read Michoel Drazin's book “Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive Refutation of Christian Missionaries” at his website.
1 – For one thing, the “servant” spoken of in Isaiah 53 was already identified throughout the book of Isaiah. Would G-d suddenly change his subject for one chapter within the book of Isaiah? The rational individual would answer in the negative.
Isaiah 41.8: “But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend.”
Isaiah 41.9: “Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art My servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”
Isaiah 43.10: “You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen …”
Isaiah 44.1: “But now hear, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen.”
Isaiah 44.21: “Remember these things, O Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant. I formed you, you are My servant, O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.”
Isaiah 45.4: “For the sake of My servant, Jacob, and My chosen, Israel, I call you by your name …”
Isaiah 48.20: “Go forth from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it forth to the end of the earth, say: 'The Lord has redeemed His servant, Jacob'.”
Isaiah 49.3: “And He said to me: 'You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified'.”
2 – The following verse eliminates Jesus as the subject of Isaiah 53:
Isaiah 42.19: “Who is blind but My servant, or deaf as My messenger, whom I send? Who is blind as My dedicated one, or blind as the servant of the Lord?”
If we accept that the chapters leading up to Isaiah 53 are consistent in their message, Isaiah 42.19 poses a dilemma for any Christian who wants to call Jesus the servant of G-d in reference to Isaiah's prophecies.
3 – Chapter 53 in Isaiah contains an abundance of indicators that incontrovertibly invalidate Jesus as the subject. Here follow some such indicators:
(a) Isaiah 53.3: “A man of pains and acquainted with disease …”
In the Christian Bible, Jesus was not said to have been afflicted with any disease, and the only time he could have felt any pain was on the cross. Isaiah 53.3 is referring to pain that is continuous and which spans a lifetime, for the entire chapter speaks of a matter that took place over time, and not an isolated event.
(b) Isaiah 53.7: “And opened not his mouth, like a lamb that is led to the slaughter … yea, he opened not his mouth.”
This could not have been referring to Jesus due to the following Christian Bible verses:
Matthew 27.46: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani'? that is to say, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me'?”
Matthew 26.39: “And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'.”
According to these verses, the Christian Bible recorded that Jesus did not go so willingly to his death, and did speak out in protest against it.
 Isaiah 53.9: “Although he had done no violence …”
In the Christian Bible, it is recorded that Jesus was indeed violent:
Matthew 21.12: “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves.”
(d) Isaiah 53.10: “To see if his soul would offer itself in restitution …”
Was it possible that the Christian god would not offer itself for the good of all of mankind? Was the Christian god testing the Christian god?
(e) Isaiah 53.10: “That he might see his seed, prolong his days …”
Even though the Christian Bible claims that Jesus did offer his soul for restitution, Jesus had no offspring, and his days were not prolonged.
(f) Isaiah 53.12: “Therefore, I will divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty …”
Would the Christian god's reward for offering himself to himself be a mere portion among the great? Who were the other “greats” who were to share the reward with him? Were they equal to him? And if he receievd a portion, then wasn't the one distributing it greater than he?
Thus, it is clear from the proofs presented above that Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with Jesus. It makes far better sense when the subject of that chapter is Israel, who as a nation watched its seed carrying on from generation to generation despite attempts by the nations to destroy it. Israel suffered the sins of all, for they were G-d's model people affected by every wrong that occurred in the world. Israel is and always has been G-d's chosen
servant, and there is no other.Deuteronomy 7.6: “For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy G-d; the Lord thy G-d hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Him, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”
Source: http://chelm.freeyellow.com/page13.html
Hope this will clear your doubts on Isaih 53.
Peace to you
AdamAdam,
Accusing God of being non-rational because he often shifts from one subject to another in prophecy is foolish at best. In some cases he does not even transition very well. He expects his people to catch on anyways.
You have failed to make the case that the Anointed One of the Christian and Jewish religions are not the same individual. The best you have done is make the case that both religions have those who teach false doctrines in them.
Have you read Isaiah 53? I ask you because the argument that you state some so called Jews make is so full of holes it could be called a sieve. They state the righteous servant mentioned in verses 1 thru 3 is the nation of Judah-Israel. Let’s assume that is true and then ask who is “our” mentioned in verses 4 and 5 or “we” and “us” mentioned in verse 6. So even if we were to assume that it is speaking of the children of God then we are also assuming that the nation of Judah-Israel is taking the infirmities and sorrows of the people of God upon itself and being pieced and crushed for those sins. Did the nation of Judah-Israel keep silent when oppressed and afflicted or did it keep its mouth shut when led like a lamb to slaughter? Was it cut off from the land of the living? Did its soul suffer? Does that really sound sensible to you?
So you think I am accusing God?
Please see this interpretation;
53:7 “He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.” Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as “sheep to be slaughtered” in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).For more details please gothrough the following link on The Suffering Servant In Isaiah 53;
Adam,
You did not think you were accusing God but Satan is tricky and we are too easilly fooled. If you state that certain behavior is irrational and God performs that behavior then you are accusing God of being irrational. You did state that changing between subject is irration and God does that quite often in prophecy. He even does it with transition which makes my head spin because I have to read a chapter several times to catch on to what he is stating. It is not my custom but it is God's and that does not make it irrational.
Now did Isaiah really teach that Isreal was oppressed without cause? It certainly does not seem to be the case according to chapter 1 of Isaiah where he accuses Judah or Isreal of being a rebellious nation. Perhaps he is speaking of a different time and not his own. I will need to look into that.
Do you believe that nation took the sins of the people of God upon itself?
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2010,17:06) Adam, You did not think you were accusing God but Satan is tricky and we are too easilly fooled. If you state that certain behavior is irrational and God performs that behavior then you are accusing God of being irrational. You did state that changing between subject is irration and God does that quite often in prophecy. He even does it with transition which makes my head spin because I have to read a chapter several times to catch on to what he is stating. It is not my custom but it is God's and that does not make it irrational.
Now did Isaiah really teach that Isreal was oppressed without cause? It certainly does not seem to be the case according to chapter 1 of Isaiah where he accuses Judah or Isreal of being a rebellious nation. Perhaps he is speaking of a different time and not his own. I will need to look into that.
Do you believe that nation took the sins of the people of God upon itself?
Hi brother Kerwin, It is not God who confuses people but human biased interpretations going out of context make us confused. I see more like this with N.T writers and even the present day Christian preachers.Salvation Without Blood:
Here is a short piece written up for this site by Jewish friend of mine. This is in response to all of the Christians who claim that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for sin. This is significant because they then claim that without this sin atonement, there is no 'salvation'. They go on to claim that Jesus is a blood sacrifice for sin atonement, and thus we need Jesus to replace the ritual slaughter of animals, to save us from sin, to get to heaven, etc.What this is, is an excerpt from a Siddur (Jewish prayer book), a prayer said (in Hebrew of course) in Daily services… perhaps you could use this on your site, to show people exactly why Jews don't continue to offer animal sacrifices, and why they can still atone for their sins (proof that Jesus is not necessary at all).
Soverign of the universe! Thou didst enjoin upon us the daily offering at its appointed time, with the service of the priests, the Levites at their posts, and all Israel represented through their delegates. Now through our sins our Temple is laid waste, its daily offerings are abolished, and we have neither officiating priest, nor Levite at his post, nor Israelite delegation. But Thou hast declared through Thy prophet Hosea, that we may substitute the prayer of our lips for the sacrifice of bulls. Therefore, be it Thy will, Lord our God, God of our fathers, that the prayer of our lips be accepted before Thee in favor and accounted as if we had offered the daily Temple sacrifice at its appointed time in the presence of our delegation, for the fulfillment of the ancient words of the Torah, “He shall offer the lamb at the side of the altar northward, before the Lord; and Aaron's sons as priests shall sprinkle its blood about the altar.” Further says the Torah, “This is the law of the burnt-offering, the meal-offering, the sin-offering, the trespass-offering, the consecration and the sacrifice of the peace-offerings.
(Notice it never says that a lamb is a sin atonement offering)
By the way, it mentions a verse in Hosea… this is the verse:
Hosea 14:2-3 Return, Israel, unto the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take words with you and return to the Lord; say unto Him, 'May You forgive all iniquity and accept good intentions, and let our lips substitute for bulls.
Artscroll Stone Edition Tanach offers a commentary for Hosea 14:3
An essential part of repentance is that one feel remorse for his past failings and sincerely resolve to improve. Thus the penitent begins by begging God to look favorably upon his good intentions and to accept the prayers, confession, and pledges of his lips in place of, and as more worthy than, fatted bulls as offerings, which may look superficially impressive but are lacking inner content.
So we see here that there was another way to make atonement for sin, and this was through prayer and repentence. The 'no atonement without blood' mentality is simply a scripturally unfounded part of Christian rhetoric. In fact, this isn't the only place where we learn that blood sacrifice is not the only method of atonement…
Deuteronomy 12:31 “Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy G-d: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.”
1 Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey better than sacrifice, to harken better than the fat of rams.”
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears has thou opened; burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
However, if blood sacrifice were the only way for sin atonement, Jesus would still not fit the requirements. For one, Jesus was a human being. And human sacrifice is referred to as an “abomination.”
Deuteronomy 12:31 “Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy G-d: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.”
And here is an interesting little snippet, that explains no son of man can save us. Remember, Jesus referred to himself as the son of man constantly. This was a phrase denoting humanity, used in reference only to human beings.
Psalms 145:3 “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.”
In conclusio a few things have been cleared up. For one, we see that the concept of blood sacrifice being the only way to make atonement is poorly founded. Prayer and repentence are also acceptable methods. Second, we see that Jesus as human being (or as some Christians view him, a divine man-god) did not meet the requirements for a sin atonement sacrifice. Third, we see that the 'son of man' (as Jesus freely admitted himself to be) can not help us. It is evident that there is no salvation with Jesus.
Adam……….Then why did Jesus die, and what good did his death do. You need to also remember GOD did not KILL Jesus , Jesus offered up Himself, and was acting as a Kinsman redeemer, the Just for the unjust. Which is allowed in the Torah , and also the Sacrifices and offerings in the OLD Testament were shadows of things to come they were not the real thing we are told. These shadows had a fulfillment , you as well as I know the blood of animals and various sacrifices could not change anything , but were an appeal to GOD for his favor. And that brought His Grace on those People , Just as the Sacrifice of Jesus brought on God's Grace to us. We are SAVED BY GRACE , we are told . Sin is a serious thing and GOD takes it seriously, it destroys life , and Life is in the Blood , so why would not God require Life for life and Blood for Blood, If he were trying to make clear his Justice Known to all. GOD justice can not be thrown away by a simply “Self” Change one decides to do and act of self repentance or remorse can not detour GOD'S Justice for the past offenses can it. That would be like saying a man robber a bank and spent all the money and then said I am sorry and was allowed to go Free and no penalty is attached to that act. God said the (SOUL) that sins shall Parish, why would he lie or just Change his mind and throw out his judgments without any payment for the sins and trespasses we have committed. How does that serve his Justice? His justice (MUST) be served. Now if He said the soul that sins shall (PARISH) then all will (PARISH) right, seeing (ALL) have sinned. Now we know GOD does not lie, So what is the only possibility for Us ho have sinned to live. The answer is GOD JUSTICE (MUST) be satisfied. or GOD would be considered a LIER. SO a KINSMEN Redeemer , which is according to GOD'S Torah, comes along and satisfies that price tag for us , that was Jesus our brother Adam He took upon himself (OUR) Sins and not ours only but the sins of the whole world. No Animal sacrifice could do that, it had to be a KINSMEN REDEEMER, Jesus Christ our Brother paid our price tag by pouring out his Blood before GOD the FATHER for US Adam. I think your getting, paying the price for sin, confused with the act of repentance, which pays nothing toward true justice. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………gene
Hi Adam:
What do you have to say about Leviticus 17, and specifically, verse 11 where the scripture states that the blood has been given on the alter to make atonement for the soul?
Love in Christ,
MartyAdam,
Your responce gives me the impression you are not sure of which of your words I address. Technically they are not your words but the words of your source that I attribute to you as you appear to agree with them.
Adam's source reads:
Quote Would G-d suddenly change his subject for one chapter within the book of Isaiah? The rational individual would answer in the negative.
Your souce is therefore guilty of accusing God of being irrational if God does change his subject for one chapter in the book of Isaiah. God is well known for changing his subject even within a chapter as he speaks of different subjects in Isaiah.
Your source was attempting to be deceptive by pretending God did not change his subject by using your faith in God being rational to bring you to an erronous conclusion. I have not idea if the deception came from ignorance or corruption.
In Isaiah 10 starting at verse 5 God is speaking about Assyria being punished for defying God by exceeding his commands to punish a godless people. In verse 20 he transitions to speaking of a remnant freed from the Assyrians. In Chapter 11 he switches to speaking of the Messiah, some so called Jews agree. In chapter 12 it speaks of the end of days, it seems, and in chapter 13 it begins by speaking of a prophecy against Babylon.
In other words your source is either corrupt or ignorant of the book of Isaiah and thus not credible and has at best a human biased interpretation.
Quote (942767 @ May 27 2010,09:28) Hi Adam: What do you have to say about Leviticus 17, and specifically, verse 11 where the scripture states that the blood has been given on the alter to make atonement for the soul?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi brother Marty,
Here is the good explanation on
Leviticus 17:11:One of the cornerstones of Christian theology is that the only way to achieve atonement for sins is through the offering of a sacrifice whose blood is shed in our place. The Greek Testament makes this very clear in Hebrews 9:22 “…without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Is this idea consistent with the teachings of the Tanach, or do the Jewish and Christian bibles diverge on this issue? Christians generally insist that the absolute need for a vicarious blood sacrifice is rooted in the Torah, and cite as proof Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.”
If you are a Christian, or are a Jew who has been approached by Christian missionaries, you have probably heard many sermons on the topic of atonement, and have undoubtedly read many studies which support the contention that there is no atonement without blood. Of course you are also aware that this is a teaching which is not shared by traditional Jews. Have you ever wondered how they could reject what to others seems so clear? This study has been prepared to give you the opportunity to consider a different perspective on the vital issue of atonement.ANOTHER LOOK AT LEVITICUS 17:11
You might remember that in junior high school, we were often given an assignment to write the title for a story; what is the central idea of a passage. Let's look at Leviticus 17:11 in context:“And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who consumes any blood, I will set My face against that person who consumes blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Therefore, I say to the children of Israel, `No one among you shall consume blood, nor shall any stranger who sojourns among you consume blood.'”
What should immediately be apparent is that the topic of this passage is not how to secure atonement from sins, but the prohibition against consuming blood. We are told parenthetically that the reason for this prohibition is that the blood contains the vitality of the animal (cf. Genesis 9:4, Deuteronomy 12:23) and consequently, when we bring an animal sacrifice, its blood serves as the atoning agent, and not another part of its body. Since Leviticus 17 doesn't come to teach us about the principles of atonement, we will have to look elsewhere for the Bible's most important teaching on how to repair our relationships with G-d.
Before proceeding, let's consider another point about what is, and what is not being said in Leviticus 17:11. The passage does say that since blood symbolizes the life of the animal, G-d has given it to us as a means of atoning for our sins. But does the verse clearly teach that it is the only means G-d has provided to make atonement? As with any other Biblical study, we will have to examine this question in light of the Bible as a whole. But for now, we should note that our verse merely says that blood can serve as an atonement. It is an effective means of atonement, but by no means the only form of atonement.
In the Torah, blood sacrifices were not the only path to atonement; there were other ways to achieve forgiveness. For example, incense served to atone for the people in Numbers 16:46-47, and giving charity is described in Exodus 30:15-16 and Numbers 31:50 as `making atonement for your souls' – the same expression as in Leviticus 17:11. In reality, blood sacrifices were the least effective of all the means of atonement mentioned in the Bible. One important limitation to the effectiveness of sacrifices is that they were only brought for unintentional sins (ie. someone didn't know that kindling a fire was prohibited on the Sabbath, or they were aware of this, but thought it was Sunday when kindling the fire). Sacrifices did not help to atone for sins that were done intentionally (Leviticus 4, and Numbers 15:22-31).
Examining the Christian interpretation of Leviticus 17:11 generates some serious problems. What happens if someone can't afford to purchase an animal for his sin offering? Is it possible that G-d would institute a system of atonement that could only be used by the wealthy? The Torah took this into account and allowed the poor person to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons if he couldn't afford a lamb (Leviticus 5:7). However, what if someone was so destitute, that he couldn't afford even these small birds?
“But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering.” (Leviticus 5:11)
Since flour could be used for a sin offering, it is clear that blood was not a prerequisite for atonement. Another example will drive home the point. The proposition that only blood sacrifices could secure atonement creates a dilemma. Could it be that G-d would set up a system of atonement that wouldn't be available to all people at all times? While the Temple stood, sacrifices did serve as part of the atonement process. But what is the fate of Jewish people who don't have access to the Temple? What were the Jewish people supposed to do after 586 BCE when the first Temple was destroyed and they were exiled to Babylon? What did the Jewish people do in the times of the Macabees when the Syrian-Greeks were in control of the Temple and didn't allow sacrifices?
Christians erroneously claim that Rabbinic Judaism came up with novel, non-Biblical measures to deal with atonement after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 CE. Actually, it wasn't Talmudic innovation at all- the Bible anticipated the possibility of the cessation of sacrifices. When King Solomon finally laid the finishing touches on the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, he inaugurated it with a moving dedication speech (I Kings 8; II Chronicles 6). In this lengthy speech of almost 50 verses, you will notice that Solomon doesn't speak about sacrifices at all! This omission would be strange if the most crucial part of the Temple were the sacrifices. Actually, the central focus of the Temple was the Holy Ark (Exodus 25) containing the Torah. The Temple was first and foremost a symbol of G-d's presence and revelation to the Jewish people (I Kings 8:13, Exodus 25:8).
Towards the end of his speech, Solomon deals with the possibility of the Jewish people being denied access to the Temple in the eventuality that they are exiled from the land of Israel.
“If they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to You toward their land which You have given to their fathers, the city which You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your name; then hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, and forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You…” (I Kings 8:46-50).
This seminal passage puts the spotlight on the Christian misunderstan
ding of Leviticus 17:11. The Bible is clearly teaching that sacrifices weren't necessary in order to atone for sins. Prayer and repentance are cited here as effective means for securing atonement. Certainly, when the Temple stood, and one could afford an animal, a sacrifice was brought as part of the atonement process for unintentional sins. Leviticus 17:11 teaches that when we bring such an animal as a sacrifice, we aren't allowed to consume its blood, because as the life force, it is the part of the animal that affects our atonement.Christian dogma holds that the crucifixion of Jesus at Calvary served as the final atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. Christianity insists that this is not just a Pauline innovation, but reflects the requirements of the Jewish Bible, and tries to establish this by pointing to Leviticus 17:11 as the key to atonement in the Tanach. However, if this passage is examined, it will be clear that Jesus could never serve as an atoning sacrifice. Obviously, the shedding of blood by pricking my finger or killing my cat won't fulfill the Biblical requirements for atonement. The Torah delineates how sacrifices are to be brought.
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls…”
Clearly, not any spilled blood is accepted by the Torah as a sacrifice. Jesus' crucifixion may qualify as an atonement according to the Greek Testament, but since his blood was not offered on the altar, it is not in line with what the Torah mandates.
There are actually several other factors which would render the crucifixion of Jesus an unacceptable sacrifice. According to the Biblical rules in Leviticus, all sacrifices had to be offered by a Priest who descends from Aaron. This was not the case in the death of Jesus, who was crucified by Roman soldiers. Additionally, Biblical law prohibited any sacrifice which was blemished or maimed (Leviticus 22:19-21). However, prior to his crucifixion, Jesus was whipped and beaten (Matthew 27:26, Mark 15:19, John 19:3) which would render him unfit. Furthermore, Jesus was circumcised in the flesh, which according to Philippians 3:2 and Galatians 5:12 is considered mutilation.
Frequently, Christians react to this line of reasoning by protesting that it is improper to be so literal, and that Jesus' death was more of a symbolic or spiritual sacrifice. This would be fine if the Bible provided for such ethereal offerings, but such is not the case. The Greek Testament, however, does insist that Jesus was a real sacrifice, literally fulfilling the Biblical requirements of such:
“But coming to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs…in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled: `Not a bone of him shall be broken.'” (John 19:33-36)
The Gospel of John portrays Jesus as the Paschal lamb which was not supposed to have any of its bones broken (Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12). Since the author of John insists that Jesus was a real sacrifice to the extent that the Biblical rules of the Passover were fulfilled in him, we can't dismiss the problems cited above as legalistic nit-picking.
One wonders why the Greek Testament chose to type Jesus as a Paschal lamb rather than the sacrifice for the Day of Atonement. We know from Exodus 12 that the Passover sacrifice did not serve as an atonement for sins, it commemorates the exodus from Egypt. (Even when the lamb was slaughtered in Egypt and its blood smeared on the doorposts, it did not serve to atone for the sins of anyone. It was a sign for the angel of death to pass over Jewish homes during the plague of the first born. The only people in danger were first born males, the blood wasn't a help to other people in the family, and didn't serve as an atonement for the first born). A more fitting prototype for Jesus would have been the Yom Kippur sacrifice, which was an atonement for the sins of all the people. It is interesting that according to Leviticus 16:10,21-22, the animal which effectuated the atonement for the sins of the nation was not killed, but sent live out into the desert. Again, the shedding of blood is not a sine qua non for atonement.
The Greek Testament went to some great lengths to demonstrate that the atoning death of Jesus was predicated upon the Jewish Bible. In the book of Hebrews, a verse from the book of Psalms is quoted as evidence that the sacrifice of Jesus was part of G-d's original plan for the world.
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, but a body You have prepared for me” (Hebrews 10:5 referring to Psalms 40:6).
In verse 10 of our passage from Hebrews, we are told that the body spoken of refers to the body of Jesus. However, the Greek Testament took some great liberties in quoting from the book of Psalms, which never mentions a body being prepared:
“Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; my ears You have opened; Burnt offerings and sin offerings You have not required” (Psalm 40:6).
The author of Romans asserts that the Jewish scriptures spoke about the Messiah coming in order to eradicate sin from Israel:
“And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written,`The deliverer will come from Zion and remove ungodliness from Jacob'.” (Romans 11:26 citing Isaiah 59:20)
However, checking the original source in Isaiah reveals the flawed foundation of the claim made in the book of Romans.
“And a redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the L-rd.”
Isaiah didn't teach that the Messiah's purpose is to remove sin; rather, he will come to the Jewish people when they show themselves worthy by turning away from sin.
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT VICARIOUS ATONEMENT?
One wonders why throughout the four Gospels, Jesus never speaks about his death serving as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world. Is the idea that an innocent person can be killed instead of those who are guilty consistent with what the Bible teaches? After the sin of the Golden Calf, G-d expressed His intention to destroy the Jewish people. Moses intercedes, and offers to die in their place. In response, G-d says “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book!” (Exodus 32:32-33). Throughout the Bible, G-d says that one person cannot die for the sins of another:“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16, II Kings 14:6).
“But everyone will die for his own sin; each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge” (Jeremiah 31:30).
“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).
“No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to G-d a ransom for him” (Psalms 49:7).
“So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who has shed it!” (Numbers 35:33).
Although Romans 4:5 says that Jesus justifies the ungodly, the Tanach teaches that “He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them are an abomination to theL-rd” (Proverbs 17:15).
If indeed, Jesus came as the final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world, why does the Tanach predict that the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices resumed?
“Even those I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.” (Isaiah 56:7). “From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones wil
l bring My offerings.” (Zephaniah 3:10)“All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered together to you, the rams of Nebaioth will minister to you; they will go up with acceptance on My altar, and I shall glorify My glorious house.” (Isaiah 60:7)
“And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.” (Ezekiel 37:26)
“And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the L-rd offerings in righteousness. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasant to the L-rd, as in the days of old and as in former years.” (Malachi 3:3-4)
“And every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the L-rd of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them.” (Zechariah 14:21) “And it shall be the princes part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings, and the libations…to make atonement for the house of Israel.” (Ezekiel 45:17)
The Christian claim that our sins can only be forgiven if blood is shed on our behalf also seems to limit the power of G-d. It's ludicrous to say that G-d`s ability to forgive us is dependent on anything. One of the most basic teachings in the Bible is that since G-d is merciful, He often forgives us simply because He is merciful. “Who is a G-d like You, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love.” (Micah 7:18; cf.Psalm 103:7-18). Even when we don't seek G-d appropriately, He has the ability to reach out to us with love and forgive us:
“Their heart was not steadfast toward Him, nor were they faithful in His covenant. But He, being compassionate, forgave their iniquity…remembering that they were but flesh.” (Psalms 78:36-39)
“You have not brought Me the sheep of your burnt offerings…or the fat of your sacrifices, but you have burdened Me with your sins…Nevertheless, I will wipe out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.” (Isaiah 43:23-25)
THE BIBLICAL VIEW OF ATONEMENT
One of the clearest indications that Christianity is off base in its insistence on the centrality of blood sacrifices is that none of the prophets speaks about it. There isn't one instance in the prophetic books where the Jewish people are told that in order to get right with G-d they need to get covered by the blood. If that's the case, what is the fundamental teaching of the Tanach on the issue of atonement? What theme is reiterated time and again by the holy prophets in the Jewish Bible?“That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.” (Jeremiah 36:3).
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the L-rd, and He will have compassion on him; and to our G-d, for He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7).
“I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, `I will confess my transgressions to the L-rd', and You did forgive the guilt of my sin.” (Psalm 32:5).
“And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (II Chronicles 7:14). “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live…When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life…Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30).
“By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for…” (Proverbs 16:6).
“If you return to G-d you will be restored; if you remove unrighteousness far from your tent…then you will delight in G-d…” (Job 22:23-27).
“Depart from evil, and do good, so you will abide forever.” (Psalm 37:27, cf. Ezekiel 33, Zechariah 1:3, Jeremiah 26:13).
The central teaching of the Bible is that only a break with our past and a sincere turning in repentance can restore our relationships with G-d. If I go off the path, I have to put myself back on track, and G-d will forgive me. Even when sacrifices were offered, they in and of themselves didn't effect atonement. The sacrifice was part of the process, it helped bring us to the core of atonement which is achieved by TESHUVAH, returning to G-d by forsaking our evil ways and praying for forgiveness. One of the main teachings of the prophets was to chide Jewish people who thought that sacrifices were the essential element of atonement:
“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me? says the L-rd. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats…Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come let us reason together says the L-rd, `Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they will be like wool, if you consent and obey…” (Isaiah 1:11-18).
“The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the L-rd.” (Proverbs 15:8).
“To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the L-rd than sacrifice.” (Proverbs 21:3). “For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of G-d rather than burnt offerings.” (Hoseah 6:6).
“Has the L-rd as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the L-rd? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken more than the fat of rams.” (I Samuel 15:22).
“With what shall I come to the L-rd, and bow myself before the G-d on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does the L-rd take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the L-rd require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-d.” (Micah 6:6-8,cf. Amos 5:22- 24, Jeremiah 7, Psalm 69:31-32).
Since repentance, and not blood is the Biblical form of atonement, we now understand how in I Kings 8, Solomon explained that even if the Jewish people don't have access to the Temple, they still have access to G-d. This will illuminate a famous story found in the book of Jonah. G-d sends Jonah to the evil city of Ninveh to warn them of their impending destruction. Jonah doesn't come into the city and tell the people that unless they begin offering sacrifices they are doomed. Their response to his warnings is to repent: they fast, pray, and turn from their evil. What is G-d's response?
“When G-d saw their deeds that they turned from their wicked way, then G-d relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.” (Jonah 3:10).
In similar fashion, Daniel advised king Nebuchadnezzar on how to atone for his transgressions:
“Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor.” (Daniel 4:27).
This principle will also help explain a passage in the book of Hoseah. Hoseah was a prophet to the 10 northern tribes in the kingdom of Israel during a time when there was a civil war going on between them and the two tribes o
f the kingdom of Judah in the south. Because of the strife, the tribes up north couldn't get to the Temple in Jerusalem to offer sacrifices. Did this leave them with no way of atoning for their sins? The prophet advises:“Return, O Israel, to the L-rd your G-d, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to the L-rd. Say to Him, `Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips'.” (Hoseah 14:1-2).
We are able to approach G-d directly with prayer, which is possible at all times; and G-d assures us that sincere prayer can achieve forgiveness for our sins:
“Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O L-rd, the G-d of my salvation. And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. O L-rd, open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Your praise. For You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. These, O G-d, You will not despise.” (Psalms 51:14-17, re:II Samuel 12:13).
“I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This shall please the L-rd better than an ox or bullock that has horns and hoofs.” (Psalm 69:30-31).
“For You, L-rd, are good, and ready to forgive, and abundant in lovingkindness to all who call upon You. Give ear, O L-rd to my prayer, and give heed to the voice of my supplications.” (Psalm 86:5-6).
“And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive.” (II Chronicles 6:21).
Are Christians consistent with the Jewish Bible when they claim that atonement is only possible with a blood sacrifice? Did the Rabbis just make up the idea that we can restore our relationship with G-d through prayer and repentance? YOU DECIDE
Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2010,15:30) Adam, Your responce gives me the impression you are not sure of which of your words I address. Technically they are not your words but the words of your source that I attribute to you as you appear to agree with them.
Adam's source reads:
Quote Would G-d suddenly change his subject for one chapter within the book of Isaiah? The rational individual would answer in the negative.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Here I am talking about the context and subject. God was talking about Israel as His servant in preceding few chapters in second Isaiah. Therefore Isaiah 53 is not about one particular individual but it has to be taken about nation Israel.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ May 28 2010,12:22) Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2010,15:30) Adam, Your responce gives me the impression you are not sure of which of your words I address. Technically they are not your words but the words of your source that I attribute to you as you appear to agree with them.
Adam's source reads:
Quote Would G-d suddenly change his subject for one chapter within the book of Isaiah? The rational individual would answer in the negative.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Here I am talking about the context and subject. God was talking about Israel as His servant in preceding few chapters in second Isaiah. Therefore Isaiah 53 is not about one particular individual but it has to be taken about nation Israel.
Peace to you
Adam
Adam,You are not explaining yourself very well since I did point out that God did change both the subject and context. I believe in the examples I provided he did provide transition support. I have not even recently read the exact chapters you are referring to but the claim itself is flawed.
The context of chapter 53 does not fit the context of the suffering servant being the nation of Isreal for the reasons I adressed in an earlier post. The nation is actiall the Isrealites themselves and therefore cannot take their sins upon it. In addition it is the Isrealites that suffered for their own transgressions because they are the nation of Isreal. In short the chapter does not make sense if you make the suffering servant is the nation of Isreal.
Adam,
I took a look at chapter fifty two which happens to speak of the Messianic Age. Why I conclude this is that verse 1 of that chapter states “The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again” which certainly sounds like the Messianic Age.
In verse 13 it begins speaking about the Suffering Servant. It certainly looks like this verse is fullfilling God's promise in verse 12 to both go before his people and be their rearguard with the words “See, my servant will act wisely”.
Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2010,18:09) Adam, I took a look at chapter fifty two which happens to speak of the Messianic Age. Why I conclude this is that verse 1 of that chapter states “The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again” which certainly sounds like the Messianic Age.
In verse 13 it begins speaking about the Suffering Servant. It certainly looks like this verse is fullfilling God's promise in verse 12 to both go before his people and be their rearguard with the words “See, my servant will act wisely”.
Hi brother Kerwin,
You may be right about the conditions for the prophecy to be Messianic age but the subject of the suffering servant is nation Israel. Here is the explanation for you.ISAIAH 52:13-53:12…THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD PASSAGE IN THE BIBLE
I suppose the above passage is possibly the most misunderstood and mis-used passage in the whole Bible. Ever since I was a child I was told to believe that this passage refereed to Jesus. Does it? You might be surprised when you study it in detail as I have. If you undertake to read these series of articles the results you will discover will reveal a completely different understanding from what many of you supposed. The reason we did not understand this passage correctly as most of grew up in the church is that our spiritual authorities chose to “read into the text” ideas that could not be “drawn from the text”. Let me explain.
In Seminary I learned that there are laws of interpretation that must be applied to the text of scripture if one wanted to arrive at the truth of what the passage is saying. There is only one problem outside of the Seminary classroom; namely few pastors or churches adhere to such rule and laws of interpretation of scripture. I learned that there is a big difference between “exegesis” and “eisegesis.” Let me explain by looking at the definitions of these two very important words.
Exegesis, [from exegeomai in the Greek, to explain-ex, and hegeomai, to lead, to guide] The exposition or interpretation of any literary production, but more particularly the exposition or interpretation of Scripture; also the principles of the art of sacred interpretation; exegetics; hermeneutics.
Eisegesis noun : personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas. In other words, reading into the text concepts and ideas totally foreign to the text.
As you can see for yourself if we follow the laws of eisegesis we can be assured of arriving at an erroneous interpretation of the text and lose the truths the prophet or writer intended to convey. Conversely, only by rigid application of the laws of exegesis can we be assured of arriving at the truths G-d desires we both understand and possess. Let us go on.
Since this article is intended for Christian readers, I will not go into depth regarding the traditional interpretation that the “Suffering Servant” has been taught to be Jesus in the Isaiah 52 and especially the Isaiah 53 passages by the Christian Church for centuries. I would only ask that you read these series of articles closely and limit your “eisegesis” (reading into the text your personal interpretation received through sermonizing) and let the truths of the passage derived from “exegesis (whereby we explain, interpret, and critically examine the text) speak to you and determine what your religious belief system should be in light of the facts. After you have completed these articles the decision will be up to you what you believe Isaiah 53 is teaching. But until you read these articles you are limited by the knowledge withheld from you and are sadly unable to make an intelligent decision. With this as my motive let us begin a critical examination of the text.
Isa 52:13-Isa 53:12…(taken from the Masoretic Text and not the altered King James Version).
In case you are not aware yet, or are a new reader of our articles, one of the main stumbling blocks for Christians today is their Bible. Simply said, it is not an accurate translation to the Hebrew in the Old Testament in hundreds of places where “Catholic theology” has been interjected into the text over the centuries following successive church councils as majority vote “created new scriptures or altered existing ones.” This is a matter of historical fact and not opinion. If that is not bad enough, the New Testament is even worse if that could be possible. The following is taken from the Stone Edition Tanakh…the preserved Hebrew texts from the Massorites which preserved the Holy Word of G-d and in which only the faintest alterations can be detected over the centuries. Unless you have read the Tanakh you literally have not read G-d's Word before! You have believed the corruptions and lies in the Christian Bible to be such; but sadly it can be shown to be anything but G-d's Word in so many places. Now on with the study. I would plead with you to take out your KJV or NIV and compare “word for word” what is being said and notice the references to plurality again; such as “executions” in verse 9 of Isaiah 53 in the Tanakh which again teaches us the author intended the servant to be understood as the plural corporate nation of Israel and not an individual.
. Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty.
. Just as multitudes were astonished over you, [saying] 'His appearance is too marred to be a man's, and his visage to be human,'
15. so will the many nations exclaim about him, and the kings will shut their mouths [in amazement], for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard.
Let me interject that the word for “nations” in the Hebrew is as follows:
1471 gowy rarely (shortened) goy- as a noun, masculine: nation, people
a) nation, people
1) usually of non-Hebrew people
2) used of descendants of Abraham
b) used of a swarm of locusts or other animals (figurative) as a proper noun, masculine:
c) Goyim? = “nations”Now back to the text….
1. Who bath believed what we have heard? For whom the arm of HaShem been revealed!
2. Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire him.
3. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hid our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.
4. But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried-but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afflicted!
5. He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through out iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed.
6. We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and HaShem inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.
. He was persecuted and was afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.
8. Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people's sin.
9. He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.
10. HaShem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of HaShem would succ
eed in his hand.11. He would see [the purpose] and be satisfied with his soul's distress. With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry.
12. Therefore, I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils-in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked.
WE MUST DECIDE WHO IS DOING THE “SPEAKING” IN THESE VERSES IN ORDER TO INTERPRET THEM CORRECTLY
Isaiah 52:15-53:1
15. so will the many nations exclaim about him, and the kings will shut their mouths [in amazement], for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard.
1. Who bath believed what we have heard? For whom has the arm of HaShem been revealed!
Notice first the words in bold type. They are in the “plural.” But also notice that there is a change in the speaker between Isaiah 52:15 and Isaiah 53:1! Whereas Isaiah has been speaking of the kings of the Gentile nation in verse 15 of Isaiah 52:15; not in verse 1 of Isaiah 53:1 it is the kings themselves who are now speaking! This is very important to notice. Kings of nations (Gentile kings of non-Jewish nations) are speaking here in their numbed astonishment. For what they are finally witnessing is in stark contrast to everything they had ever heard and considered (or even heard preached about the Jews in their churches). Understandably, the first question on their lips is, “Who would have ever believed such a thing?” These Gentile leaders and “kings” are utterly astounded that the Jewish people, whom all the non-Jewish nations [the servant is corporate remember?] have together despised and molested, will be vindicated and enjoy the promised salvation of G-d. This is totally foreign to their theologies and what they were accustomed to hear taught and preached and what they expected to happen to the Jewish people.
Answer for yourself: What is so startling about this Gentile declaration?
In other words these thoughts and beliefs, held by these kings, about the fate of the Jewish people and their salvation have been totally in error as held by these non-Jewish people and their leaders. Understand that the vast majority of Christianity today, if asked, will say the Jewish people are damned to hell if they don't believe in the Messiah or the blood of Jesus. They will one day find out that their theology concerning the Jewish people and even salvation was in error. Let us go on.
The palpable shock that the gentile nations will experience and express at the end of days is a common theme throughout the Bible. But this fact can only be know if you spend a lot of time in the Hebrew Scriptures, and lets face the truth, most Christians today spend the vast majority of their time reading only the New Testament and find little use for the Jewish Scriptures.
Bear in mind that nowhere in scripture do the prophets foretell that the Jewish people will ever proclaim shock, or admit any mistake to the gentiles in the messianic age. On the contrary, the Bible clearly testifies that in the messianic age ten gentiles of different languages will grasp the shirt of a Jew and say, “Let us go with ,YOU, for we have heard that G-d is with ,YOU.” (Zechariah 8:23)
Micah 7:15-16
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto them marvelous things. 16 The nations (non-Jewish peoples) shall see and be confounded at all of their might: they shall lay their hands upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
Isaiah 41:11
11 Behold all those who were incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; those who quarreled with you shall be as naught and be lost.
Jeremiah 16:19-20
19 O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth and shall say, “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no benefit. 20 Shall a man make G-ds unto himself, and they are no G-ds?
Please listen. As a Seminary graduate with a Master's degree no less, the tools I received while at Seminary were put to further use after I graduated as I proceeded to be involved in in-depth study of Biblical language, Biblical history, culture, etc. I must admit that upon 15 years of in-depth research and study, sometimes up to 10 hours a day, I have found that I have fulfilled Jeremiah 16:19-20. I have come to the conclusion that Jeremiah is totally correct: my non-Jewish forefathers, having accepted the legacy of Nicea and Constantine, and others who replaced a Jewish faith with one of Rome, and who altered the manuscripts to make sure that all subsequent non-Jewish followers accept “their” brand of Roman neo-pagan religion, propagated religious lies, vanity, and vain worship. Faced with such knowledge which most have not had the opportunity to be exposed to themselves, I endeavor to reach out to others to inform them of the truths long held from the Christian community in order that their knowledge and faith in both G-d and Messiah be correct and not after the traditions of men who hated the Jews.
REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD PREACHED IN YOUR CHURCH….WHO DOES ISAIAH IDENTIFY AS “THE SERVANT”?
Isaiah 41:8-9
But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend. 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from it nobles I called you, and I said to you. “You are My servant”; I chose you and I did not despise you.
Isaiah 44:1-2
1 Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel, whom I have chosen. So said the Lord your Maker, and He who formed you from the womb shall aid you. 2 Fear not, My servant Israel, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21
21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art My servant, I have formed thee; thou art My servant, O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of Me.
Isaiah 45:4
4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name…
Isaiah 48:20
20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.”
Isaiah 49:3
3 And said to me, thou art My Servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified!
Psalm 136:22
22 Even a heritage unto Israel His servant; for His mercy endures forever
Jeremiah 30:10
10 Therefore fear not, O My Servant Jacob, says the Lord, neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save you from afar….
Answer for yourself: So what do we learn about the identity of the “Servant” of G-d?
The Suffering Servant of G-d is the nation of Israel and not an individual; that is, the Suffering Servant of G-d is a collection of people and not just one person.
Answer for yourself: What are the implications of reading only “one” person into Isaiah 53 then?
Simply, we are guilty of not drawing out of the passage the intended meaning of the prophet (exegesis), but rather, misinterpreting the passage by reading into the passage a preconceived belief formed by what others have said (eisegesis) which cannot be supported by critical examination of the text. Our religious belief system is in error, and often this leads us to vain worship.
Answer for yourself: If we read “Yeshua” into Isaiah 53 and not understand that the “suffering servant” is the collective nation of Israel, then are we not guilty of “reading into the text our personal interpretation” irrespective of the intended meaning of the prophet and guilty of “eisegesis”? We sure are.
THE ONLY CONCLUSION WE CAN RIGHTFULLY DRAW FROM TRUTHFUL EXAMINATION OF THE TEXT IS THAT THE IDENTITY OF THE “SERVANT” IN THE PROPHE
T'S FOURTH SERVANT SONG, ISAIAH 53, MUST BE THE NATION OF ISRAEL AND NOT ONE INDIVIDUALOne last thing which is of paramount importance besides the identity of the “servant.” Beginning with Isaiah 53:1 the speaker is no longer Isaiah, but the testimony of the Gentile nations and their leaders concerning the nation of Israel and the Jews. Literally, once you see this for yourself, then you will easily see that Isaiah 53 is a self-confession and recrimination upon themselves for their hatred and persecution of G-d servant …the Jewish people. We must stop and remember that Yeshua is one of millions who make up the servant of HaShem…and that the author of Isaiah never meant to single him out particularly in these passages. Now, on to the next study.
Adam,
That is a long explanation and I will have to go through it more throughly but I note at this point that your source starts explaining his interpretation using verse 15 of chapter 52 when the suffering servant is first mentioned in verse 13 of that same chapter. This makes his argument about who is speaking fall apart.
Now I will direct your attention to verse 10 which does speak of what the nations, I believe this means all nations whether Gentile or not, and all the ends of the earth will see. In verse 11 and tells you what they will see.
In verse 13 we are told more of what they will see but again it also seems to speak of how God will be both go before the remnant of his people and be their rear guard.
This same servant is mentioned in Isaiah 42:1-9 but God does change the subject and calls the Hebrew people as a whole his servant in verses 18-25. I know God is not speaking of the Hebrew people in the first part because in verse 6 he clearly states he will make his servant a covenant for the people. In the secound part I know it is the Hebrew people because he states in verse 24 he handed Isreal anbd Jacob against who sinned against him over to the plunderers.
My point is that the context of all of these scriptures but the one I mentioned does not bear out the argument that they speak about Judah-Isreal.
Hi brother please read this another arguement on Isaiah 52-53:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8154Adam,
Do you read scripture yourself? I ask this because you keep introducing witnesses whom I can not cross examine. If you agree with these witnesses then explain why and put it in your own words so you can defend it.
I have already pointed out why it is absurd to believe the suffering servant is the country of Isreal-Judah. The context of the chapters 42 and 43 just do not fit that interpretation and I doubt any amount of spin is going to change that.
If you wish to believe in an absurdity it is your choice as many people choose to believe in conspiracy theories. To my point of view it is absurd to believe that the nation of Isreal-Judah suffers for the sins of the world and though it did suffer for the sins of its people so did those people.
Hi brother Kerwin,
You are completly biased towards Christianity that is the reason why you are not seeing the truth from otherside. In second Isaiah the servant of God is none but Jacob/Israel His beloved son whom God called as His firstborn. In chapters right from 40 to 53 Jacob is the subject he represents his people and nation. The allegory is clear in these chapters that God punished Jacob means his children for their sins. At the same time God is using the nation(as individual) different from people when He talks about the redemption of the sins of Gentile(nations) God punished Israel as nation(as individual). How can you equate this to Jesus when he never suffered from any desease or illness as per Gospel narrations? If you read the preceding chapters it is clear how God was promising to restore His people. God punished the nation Israel as an individual for the sins of Gentile(nations) that is the allegory in Chapter 52-53 of second Isaiah. I see there is nothing to be equated to Jesus in these chapters as Christianity invented Jesus death as some vicarious sacrifice for the sins of the world. Can you be honest how a crucified supposed Roman criminal can become the vicarious sacrifice for the sins of the world? Is there any logic in such claims? Don't look for your claims in scriptures you will be misguided by such suppositions. You questioned my honesty in reading scriptures. I read and re-read them to find some thing new in application. Sorry for troubling you by my strange arguments.Peace to you
Adam
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
