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Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 14 2010,16:05) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 14 2010,04:50) Adam………You are correct Obedience is definitely better than sacrifice, but the problem is we have all disobeyed and therefore there is a need to be redeemed, this requires the JUSTICE of GOD to be fulfilled or His righteous Judgements would be annulled ,the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is the redemption need for us to approach GOD. We were separated from approaching GOD until the Vail was rent and we can Now go before the Mercy Set of GOD and find Mercy in our times of Need, We have now in direct contact to GOD the FATHER, Because our sins are covered by the Sacrifice of Jesus. GOD no longer considers us sinners, but sons and daughters of His, and where sin did abound GRACE di MUCH MORE ABOUND. Adam we all have much more going for us all because of the Sacrifice of Jesus. IMO Peace and love to you Adam and yours…………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for such agreement. But the question here is how the cultic death of Jesus became the center of salvation. hebrew scriptures never meant for such human sacrifice and see the arguments against it. I want to ask you one thing if Jesus is the true means of forgiveness of sins what happened to all true believers of God before Jesus' death? Did God not forgive the sins of true Israelites in the past when they truely saught the LORD? I feel it is mere invention of Paul to interpret Jesus' death as the vicarious atonement for sins. There are strong arguments against such interpretation as I have quoted in my earlier posts.please think over
Adam
Adam……..Maybe this will help. it's not about Just forgiveness, that would be easy GOD could Just forgive us any time He wanted to right? But He can not break his word , scripture says the soul that sins it shall die, in this case it means Parish forever , because if our soul dies we are gone for ever. So what is it about, it is about the (JUSTICE) OF GOD AND HIS WORD. Some think well we just “repent” and think GOD will except this and forgive us, but you see the word of GOD himself Would be compromised. Now if we were to pay for our own SINS, the Price tag is eternal death, because he said the (SOUL) the sins shall die. When a Soul dies that is it for ever, So you see the dilemma here, we could never Pay for our sins and still live , But Justice was served for our sins by the sacrifice of Jesus, a life for a Life, Jesus was our debt, price tag for full payment of our sins, and also the judgement of GOD and God's Word was satisfied. That is why it says we have been bought with a Price. We were delievered from the death sentence pronounced on us , by the blood of Jesus Christ. GOD accepted that sacrifice as our payment for our sins. IMOpeace and love to you and yours brother……………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 15 2010,11:45) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2010,01:57) Belief in Jesus is the only way to accomplish that goal. If you reject that belief then you reject that goal.
This is where it differs from Judaism. No where in the Hebrew scriptures it is mentioned that Jesus is the only way to achieve Salvation.
Then they are not going by the Torah or the prophets as what I wrote is also written there.Isaiah 8:28(NIV) reads:
Quote To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Deuteronomy 6:24(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.
Ezekiel 18:20(NIV) reads:
Quote The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Once again there is only one way to obtain the Messianic Age and that is through faith in Jesus. I assure you that those who reject the promise of the spirit of righteousness will never enter the Messianic Age.
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 16 2010,16:09) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 14 2010,16:05) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 14 2010,04:50) Adam………You are correct Obedience is definitely better than sacrifice, but the problem is we have all disobeyed and therefore there is a need to be redeemed, this requires the JUSTICE of GOD to be fulfilled or His righteous Judgements would be annulled ,the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is the redemption need for us to approach GOD. We were separated from approaching GOD until the Vail was rent and we can Now go before the Mercy Set of GOD and find Mercy in our times of Need, We have now in direct contact to GOD the FATHER, Because our sins are covered by the Sacrifice of Jesus. GOD no longer considers us sinners, but sons and daughters of His, and where sin did abound GRACE di MUCH MORE ABOUND. Adam we all have much more going for us all because of the Sacrifice of Jesus. IMO Peace and love to you Adam and yours…………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for such agreement. But the question here is how the cultic death of Jesus became the center of salvation. hebrew scriptures never meant for such human sacrifice and see the arguments against it. I want to ask you one thing if Jesus is the true means of forgiveness of sins what happened to all true believers of God before Jesus' death? Did God not forgive the sins of true Israelites in the past when they truely saught the LORD? I feel it is mere invention of Paul to interpret Jesus' death as the vicarious atonement for sins. There are strong arguments against such interpretation as I have quoted in my earlier posts.please think over
Adam
Adam……..Maybe this will help. it's not about Just forgiveness, that would be easy GOD could Just forgive us any time He wanted to right? But He can not break his word , scripture says the soul that sins it shall die, in this case it means Parish forever , because if our soul dies we are gone for ever. So what is it about, it is about the (JUSTICE) OF GOD AND HIS WORD. Some think well we just “repent” and think GOD will except this and forgive us, but you see the word of GOD himself Would be compromised. Now if we were to pay for our own SINS, the Price tag is eternal death, because he said the (SOUL) the sins shall die. When a Soul dies that is it for ever, So you see the dilemma here, we could never Pay for our sins and still live , But Justice was served for our sins by the sacrifice of Jesus, a life for a Life, Jesus was our debt, price tag for full payment of our sins, and also the judgement of GOD and God's Word was satisfied. That is why it says we have been bought with a Price. We were delievered from the death sentence pronounced on us , by the blood of Jesus Christ. GOD accepted that sacrifice as our payment for our sins. IMOpeace and love to you and yours brother……………..gene
Hi brother Gene,
Good explanation but I am not so much convinced n how Jesus' death would be the penalty for my sins since he never died for any sins or crime. He was allegedly killed by Romans. It is purely the interpretation of St Paul. I am still studying more on this issue.Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (Gene @ Feb. 16 2010,16:09) Adam……..Maybe this will help. it's not about Just forgiveness, that would be easy GOD could Just forgive us any time He wanted to right? But He can not break his word , scripture says the soul that sins it shall die, in this case it means Parish forever , because if our soul dies we are gone for ever. So what is it about, it is about the (JUSTICE) OF GOD AND HIS WORD. Some think well we just “repent” and think GOD will except this and forgive us, but you see the word of GOD himself Would be compromised. Now if we were to pay for our own SINS, the Price tag is eternal death, because he said the (SOUL) the sins shall die. When a Soul dies that is it for ever, So you see the dilemma here, we could never Pay for our sins and still live , But Justice was served for our sins by the sacrifice of Jesus, a life for a Life, Jesus was our debt, price tag for full payment of our sins, and also the judgement of GOD and God's Word was satisfied. That is why it says we have been bought with a Price. We were delievered from the death sentence pronounced on us , by the blood of Jesus Christ. GOD accepted that sacrifice as our payment for our sins. IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………..gene
Hi Gene,Excellent answer! Have you ever heard of DR. Gene Scott?
Click Here And Click HereHe explains it in much the same way you do.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgDo we need atonement through Jesus?
The Christian belief that Jesus is an blood atonement for sin to “save” sinners is fallacious on two counts.
Christianity teaches that mankind is “depraved” and thus incapable of truly doing good. This supposedly came about with the misbehavior of Hawwa (Eve) and subsequently her man (Adam means “man”—from 'adamah “soil/ reddish ground”), which they call the Fall. Yahweh created man and woman and pronounced them “tov” good as he did all creation. This world, by the way, is not evil; it is as Yahweh created it, just as He purposely created the first people with free will to choose. No person is entirely evil, and every person has the capability to choose bad or harmful actions as well as good ones. In some ways we could say bad is selfish. And not only that, but good and bad can work together. For example, most men marry because of a need to satisfy their sexual desires which can be quite selfish (most women can tell you), and many negative actions can result from the hunt for a mate. On the other hand, women have desires of their own and can be selfish also. But out of this conflict, children are born and raised, families are made, homes and relationships are built, and in turn society comes into being and is preserved. Everything has its purpose under the hand of Yahweh. It is not a dualist competiton, but a purposeful integration.
Also, the scriptures tell us that children are not held responsible for the sins of their fathers, but we stand to account for our own sins. There is no all-encompassing “original sin” that automatically damns every human from conception. We choose to sin or do good for ourselves, and are alone responsible for them.
So you are not damned to sin, and Jesus cannot stand to pay for your sins.
Secondly, Christians are obsessed with blood atonement for this imagined state of your depravity. They point to the sacrificial activities of the Tabernacle and Temple, and try to equate Jesus with livestock that were butchered and burnt. Aside from the fact that human sacrifice was rejected by Yahweh Himself on Mount Moriah when 'Avraham was about to sacrifice his son, it is biblically condemned, and this is brought out in the reaction of God to the peoples who sacrificed children to pagan gods. It is an abomination.
You have probably done some horrible things in your life, like many have. Christians speak of being “washed in the blood” of Jesus to atone for these, just as animals once did—yet according to Christianity, he is the one-time super sacrifice ending all others. He died to cover all sins.
But the sacrificial rites and blood atonement never covered all of your sins, and in fact, if you deliberately, knowingly committed a sin, there was NO sacrifice for that. Sacrifices were for unintentional sin. It only covered things that you might have done unknowingly. Yahweh requires repentence from sin to atone for it. It has always been “grace” that “saves” a repentant sinner. No one is saved by the blood of a man or a lamb.
Source: http://ebionite.org/faq.htm#Do we need atonement through Jesus?
Gollamundi wrote:
Quote Also, the scriptures tell us that children are not held responsible for the sins of their fathers, but we stand to account for our own sins.
Scripture does not deny that the children suffer the consequences of their father’s sins. Adam and Eve sinned and thus corrupted the spirit of mankind so that all men choose to sin. David’s son died for the sin of David and Beersheba.
Psalms 14:2-3(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.It is clear your source does not believe Scripture which clearly states “all have turned aside” and “no one does good”.
This is what the prophet Jeremiah states:
Jeremiah 31:27-30(NIV) reads:
Quote “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will plant the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of men and of animals. Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD. “In those days people will no longer say,
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'
Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge.He goes on to state:
Jeremiah 31:31-33(NIV) reads:
Quote “The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the LORD.
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.He also states:
Jeremiah 31:34(NIV) reads:
Quote No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”Jeremiah is speaking of the spirit of righteousness which your source claims in unneeded.
Quote (david @ April 12 2010,13:12) Is this thread about Halloween?
This thread is about a modern day attack from the so called Jews on the doctrine of the Anointed One. It speaks of their misconception of why Jesus died on the cross and their inability to understand what is meant be “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”.GOD NEVER ACCEPTED HUMAN SACRIFICES?
I previously posted to have anyone show me Bible scriptures that shows that Human sacrifices where ever Accepted by God. Some people showed me some scripture here which I’m refuting. First I will like to point out that of so many translations of the Bible most of them have being mistranslated and misunderstood. In occasions the Bible have being purposely mistranslated and altered in order to desperately match their preconceives ideas and desperately “proof “ their theology.In order for me to refute this I must first show some basic Biblical passages expound on them and then show the mistranslations and misunderstandings and them oppose those claim.
Deut 8: 10-12 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. In this passagees God forbid human sacrifices and call it an Abomination
Deut 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. Here God is telling The Children of Israel that He hate and detest children Sacrifises and in doing it onto Him It is an Abomination! How clear can this be?
Deut 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God [any] bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, [or] any evilfavouredness: for that [is] an abomination unto the LORD thy God. This passage here indicates that the sacrifice that is of animal (not human) must be without blemish, there is not on single commandment stating that a human sacrifice is to be made at all.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. One more time here is an ilustration of human sacrifices through the fire of Molech it is called an Abomination!
Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. God already call it a Commandment not to do human sacrifices so why change it?
Mal 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. God do not change His mind and He does not change!Dan 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. Here there is some horrible person that will try to change not only the appointed times that are part of the Law But the Law itself! The Law indicates not to perform Human sacrifices; it is a detestable thing to Got It is an Abomination to God and God HATES IT!
I’m almos 100% sure that there are more examples of this in The Bible so how can this be changed? Did god change his mind? If God did not change His mind is He a Liar? I Propose that God is not a Liar so I will have to show you those passages shown by ignorant people that just repeat whatever they hear from the pulpit are just mistranslated misunderstand and Perverted passages from The Hebrew Bible.
Next I will present what ignorant people said about human sacrifices they use Biblical passages to “proof” their preconceived ideas.
In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said “Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me.
” This in no way shape or form indicates that God expected Human sacrifices so what this means? Is there is silence about this? No read the whole book exodus After the Angel of death pas through the land God saves all the first born male and female! Wont you think it is fair to accept this from God? They Belong to God! Not that is for sacrifices! Read a bit further
Exo 13:13 Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons. Redeem every firstborn among your Son. Eventually if you keep reading God explains that He will take The Tribe of Levi for himself to be the Priest of Israel in payment for the redemption of the first born! Not To Sacrifice them!Leviticus 27:28-29, “Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death.” This passage is extremely difficult to understand and careful”
Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100203002025AAc8lWS
Here is what a Christian says ;
Does God Accept Human Sacrifice?
by Kyle Butt, M.A.Twelve minutes and 45 seconds into Dan Barker’s opening statement in our Darwin Day debate on February 12, 2009, he claimed that the God of the Bible cannot exist because the Bible presents contradictory information about God’s acceptance of human sacrifice. Barker said: “Does He [God—KB] accept human sacrifice? In some verses, ‘Yes,’ in some verses, ‘No.’ Remember the thing about when [sic] Abraham; He asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac” (Butt and Barker, 2009).
This brief statement is the only one that he gave as “evidence” of this alleged Bible contradiction. In our debate he did not cite any verses that he believes show this contradiction. But in chapter 13 of his book godless, he made the same claim and listed several verses. On page 240, he quoted Deuteronomy 12:31: “Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.” Barker then quoted Genesis 22:2: “And he [God—KB] said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of” (KJV). Dan does not offer any comments on these two verses, other than to list them as contradictory.
On close inspection, however, it becomes evident that these two verses cannot be contradictory. From the biblical narrative in Genesis 22, it is clear that God never intended to allow Abraham to kill his son. When Abraham got to the top of the appointed mountain, before he killed his son, God stopped him and showed him a ram caught in a thicket that was provided as a sacrifice instead of Isaac. God knew that He would stop Abraham before the sacrifice (see Lyons, 2009), and thus, never planned to accept a human sacrifice in this instance. If Isaac was never sacrificed, due to God’s intervention, then it cannot be claimed that God accepted human sacrifice on this occasion. In fact, since God stepped in and commanded Abraham not to sacrifice his son (Genesis 22:12), Abraham would have been sinning if he had continued with the sacrifice. It is impossible to claim that God accepted the human sacrifice of Isaac when the Bible specifically states that He prevented it. [NOTE: At this point in the discussion, Barker generally changes the argument, and demands that it was immoral for Abraham to follow God’s commands. That allegation will be dealt with in a future article. It is important to stay focused on Barker’s original allegation of contradiction before moving on to refute his allegation that God is immoral.]
EXODUS 22:29
In addition to the incident with Isaac, Barker cited Exodus 22:29 as an example of God accepting human sacrifice. In godless, he quoted this verse on page 240: “For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.” With all due respect to Barker, either he has intentionally misled the reader by citing this verse, or he is unaware of its true meaning. Based on his background of Bible study and his claims of biblical knowledge, the former, unfortunately, seems to be the case.Exodus 22:29 was never intended to mean that the Israelites were supposed to sacrifice their firstborn sons to God. In fact, Exodus 13:13 says, “And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.” What did it mean to redeem the firstborn son? It meant that the Israelites were to give to the Lord five skekels of silver when the firstborn son was one month old (see Numbers 18:16). What was the purpose of redeeming the firstborn son? Moses explained that it was a memorial of the process by which God delivered the Israelites from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 13:14-15). It is inexcusably poor scholarship for any person who has read the book of Exodus to make such an uninformed statement as to demand that Exodus 22:29 speaks of human sacrifice. We should remember, however, that Barker has admitted his belief that honesty is not always the best tactic for dealing with Christianity or the Bible (Butt, 2003).
JEPHTHAH’S VOW
As further “evidence” of a Bible contradiction in regard to human sacrifice, Barker cited the story of Jephthah that is found in Judges 11:30-39. In that biblical narrative, Jephthah made a vow to God that, if God would give him victory against his enemies, then Jephthah would sacrifice the first thing that came out of his house upon his return. Jephthah defeated his enemies and his only daughter was the first thing that greeted him. Jephthah was very sorry for his vow, but the text says that he “carried out his vow with her which he had vowed” (Judges 11:39).In regard to Jephthah’s vow, there are several insurmountable problems with presenting this as an example of God accepting human sacrifice. First, there is considerable evidence that the girl was not killed, she simply was dedicated to the Lord, remained unmarried, and had no children (for a more thorough discussion of Jephthah’s vow, see Miller, 2003). Second, there is no indication that God approved of Jephthah’s vow. If Jephthah offered his daughter as a literal burnt offering, he disobeyed God’s instructions in the Law of Moses (Leviticus 18:21; 20:2-5; Deuteronomy 12:31; 18:10). The Jephthah incident cannot be used to show that God either asked for human sacrifice, or approved of it.
SAUL’S DESCENDANTS
Furthermore, Barker cited 2 Samuel 21:8-14 as an example of God accepting human sacrifice. Barker quoted those verses as follows: “But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah…and the five sons of Michal…and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest… And after that God was intreated for the land” (2008, pp. 240-241). Again, this narrative offers no proof that God ever accepted human sacrifice. Was it the case that God sometimes demanded that sinful people who deserved capital punishment be put to death for their sins? Yes, it was (see Miller, 2002). Could it be, then, that the descendants of Saul were guilty of offenses that deserved the death penalty? Yes.Notice that the text indicates that the ones who were hanged were “men” (2 Samuel 21:6), who would have been old enough to be responsible for their moral decisions. Furthermore, notice that the text indicates that Saul’s “house” or “household” was a bloodthirsty house (2 Samuel 21:1), apparently implying that many of his relatives were involved in his murderous plots. In 2 Samuel 16:5-14, the Bible introduces a wicked man named Shimei who was “from the family of the house of Saul” (2 Samuel 16:5). And Saul’s wickedness is documented throughout the book of 1 Samuel. Could it be that Saul’s descendants who were hanged had followed in the wicked paths of many from the “house of Saul” and deserved the death penalty? Yes. Thus, it is once again impossible to use this passage to “prove” that God accepted human sacrifice.
“THE DEATH OF CHRIST
Finally, Barker alleges that the sacrifice of Christ provides an example of God accepting human sacrifice. He cited Hebrews 10:10-12 and 1 Corinthians 5:7 as evidence. Once more, Barker is guilty of egregious textual manipulation and dishonesty. Did God approve of the sinful actions of those who killed Jesus? Absolutely not. In fact, Peter explained that those who killed Jesus had done so with “lawless hands” (Acts 2:23). He further explained that they had to repent of their sins or they would be lost forever (Acts 2:38). While God used the sinful actions of Jesus’ murderers to bring about His purposes (Acts 3:17-19), He never condoned those actions. Those who murdered Jesus violated God’s law; they did n
ot accomplish their dastardly deeds at God’s request, nor with His approval.Barker is well aware of this truth. In fact, he has spoken in other places about Christ’s atoning sacrifice. In his book Losing Faith in Faith, Barker stated:
Christians do know how to think; but they don’t start deep enough. A thoughtful conclusion is the synthesis of antecedent presuppositions or conclusions. The propitiatory nature of Christ’s sacrificial atonement, for example, is very logical. Logical, that is, if you first accept the existence of sin, the fall of humankind, the wrath of God and divine judgment. If you don’t buy the premises, then, of course, the conclusion cannot be logical (1992, p. 60).
Barker, of course, does not “buy the premises,” but his denial of them does not make them any less logical or true. And if they are true, then he acknowledges that the sacrifice of Christ, although perpetrated by sinful men acting against God’s will, fits logically into the scheme of redemption.
CONCLUSION
God has never accepted human sacrifice. The examples that Barker has listed fail completely to manifest a contradiction in the Bible concerning God’s policy toward the practice. Barker’s lack of knowledge, or his intentional dishonesty, is evident throughout his discussion of the biblical view of human sacrifice. Since no contradiction exists, the accusation of a Bible contradiction is unfounded, and cannot be used against the Bible or the existence of God. Let us all be gravely reminded that those who twist the Scriptures, and force them to seemingly say what they do not say, do so at their own eternal peril (2 Peter 3:16).Source: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/print/240229
Quote (gollamudi @ April 19 2010,18:43) Soory brother I never said that.
Hi Gollamudi,How is 'your' sin removed; Gollamudi?
Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2010,19:24) Quote (gollamudi @ April 19 2010,18:43) Soory brother I never said that.
Hi Gollamudi,How is 'your' sin removed; Gollamudi?
God forgave my sins when I confessed with true repentence. Here is an example of non-jews whom God forgave when they repented;“Remember, too, the story of the book of Jonah. Jonah tried to escape from doing God's will, and preaching to the People of Ninevah. After the problem with the great fish, he goes to the people of Ninevah, says five words to them (in the original Hebrew) and what do they do? They fast (“let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water” Jonah 3:7) just as the Jews do on Yom Kippur. The people of Ninevah also prayed (“Let them cry mightily to God.” Jonah 3:8) just as the Jews do on Yom Kippur. And, finally, the people of Ninevah stopped doing Evil, started doing Good (“Let everyone turn from his evil ways and from the violence which is in his hands.” Jonah 3:8) as we are, hopefully, inspired to do on Yom Kippur. What was God's response? God forgave them of their sins because of their works (“When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the Evil which He had said He would do unto them, and He did not do it.” Jonah 3:10) Please note that the text does NOT read that God saw their sacrifices, the People of Ninevah were never commanded to sacrifice. Nor does the text read that God saw that they had the right faith. Rather it says that God saw what they did, their works.”
Peace to you
AdamMore verses;
There were other methods used to receive atonement that were superior to the sacrificial system. This is what God truly desires from us, Teshuvah, which means repentance and return to God.
..if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]
But if from there you seek the Eternal your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]
He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]
Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]
The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]
It is true repentance and prayer that God wants from us, NOT sacrifice!
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]
Remember, the Psalms were written to sing praises to God in the Temple, right where the sacrifices themselves were to be performed. They understood quite well God's attitude towards the sacrifices:
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]
God wants us to pray for forgiveness, and it is prayer that replaces the sacrifices, just as God commanded us to do as Hosea stated:
Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: “Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]
Quote (gollamudi @ April 19 2010,22:07) Quote (Ed J @ April 19 2010,19:24) Quote (gollamudi @ April 19 2010,18:43) Soory brother I never said that.
Hi Gollamudi,How is 'your' sin removed; Gollamudi?
God forgave my sins when I confessed with true repentence. Here is an example of non-jews whom God forgave when they repented;“Remember, too, the story of the book of Jonah. Jonah tried to escape from doing God's will, and preaching to the People of Ninevah. After the problem with the great fish, he goes to the people of Ninevah, says five words to them (in the original Hebrew) and what do they do? They fast (“let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water” Jonah 3:7) just as the Jews do on Yom Kippur. The people of Ninevah also prayed (“Let them cry mightily to God.” Jonah 3:8) just as the Jews do on Yom Kippur. And, finally, the people of Ninevah stopped doing Evil, started doing Good (“Let everyone turn from his evil ways and from the violence which is in his hands.” Jonah 3:8) as we are, hopefully, inspired to do on Yom Kippur. What was God's response? God forgave them of their sins because of their works (“When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the Evil which He had said He would do unto them, and He did not do it.” Jonah 3:10) Please note that the text does NOT read that God saw their sacrifices, the People of Ninevah were never commanded to sacrifice. Nor does the text read that God saw that they had the right faith. Rather it says that God saw what they did, their works.”
Peace to you
Adam
Hi Gollamudi,Matt.16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign
be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead,
they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.In fact, in Hosea 3:4-5, the prophet foretold with divine exactness that the nation of Israel would not have a sacrificial system during the last segment of Jewish history until the messianic age. Hosea 3:4-5 reads,
. . . for the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
In the words of the Bible, this period of time would last for many days. Yet, despite the repeated proclamations of the church that the crucifixion of Jesus serves as a sin sacrifice today, the words of Hosea were meticulously fulfilled, and we are without an animal sacrificial system today.
Given the spiritual magnitude of this remarkable prophecy, Hosea was compelled to reveal how the ecclesiastical Temple functions were to be replaced. In essence, if the prophet is testifying that the nation of Israel will indeed be without a sacrificial system during their long exile until the messianic age, what are we to use instead? How are the Jewish people to atone for unintentional sin without a blood sacrifice during their bitter exile? What about all the animal sacrifices prescribed in the Book of Leviticus? Can the Jewish people get along without animal offerings? Missionaries claim they cannot. The Bible disagrees.
For this reason, the statement in Hosea 14:2-3 is crucial. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his beloved nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to “render for bulls the offering of our lips.” Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system. Hosea 14:2-3 states,
Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.”
The prophets never instruct the Jews to worship any crucified messiah or demigod; nor does scripture ever tell us that an innocent man can die as an atonement for the sins of the wicked. Such a message is utterly antithetical to the teachings of the Jewish scriptures. Rather, it is the prayers of the sinner that would become as bulls of the sin offerings.
King Solomon echoes this sentiment as well. In I Kings 8:46-50, King Solomon delivers a startling prophetic message as he inaugurates the first Temple that had just been completed. In his inauguration sermon, King Solomon forewarns that one day the Jewish people would be driven out of the land of Israel, and be banished to the land of their enemies, near and far. During their exile they would fervently desire to repent of their sins. King Solomon then declares that they would face Jerusalem from their exile, confess their sins, “and God will hear their prayers in heaven, and forgive them for all their transgressions.”
There was no mention of a cross or a dead messiah in King Solomon's prophetic message. Only the contrite and repentant prayer of the remorseful sinner can bring about a complete atonement. Although King Solomon's timeless message stands out as a theological impossibility in Christian terms, it remains the centerpiece of the Jew's system of atonement throughout his long and bitter exile.
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