Human sacrifice?

Participant

This is the view of a Christian converted to Judaism:

One of the three main reasons for my conversion to Judaism was over the human sacrifice of Christianity in [light] of the Jewish scriptures (the other two being vicarious-atonement and astrology veneration). Simply put, the Jewish scriptures utterly detest the worship of Jehovah God of Israel through the form of human sacrifice.

“…for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.” – Deuteronomy 12:31 (see also Leviticus 18:21 / Leviticus 20:2-4)

“But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” – Jeremiah 32:34-35

Human sacrifice which was a common practice of worship among the Canaanites, caused the Jewish temple (a place for atonement) to be defiled. In order to convey just how bad the worship of other gods can be Deuteronomy states: “even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods”. According to the prophet Jeremiah, God wants Israel to know that human sacrifice is the furthermost concept from His method of thought – notice the words in red from the book of Jeremiah above.

The question then becomes why would Jehovah-God of Israel who hates human sacrifices send Himself as one, for Himself to be accepted as an vicarious atonement? Notice the prophet Ezekiel's exact wording that would reflect upon vicarious atonement: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” – Ezekiel 18:20
This Hebrew scripture from the prophet Ezekiel is in direct conflict with the later New Testament teaching: “(Jesus) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree…” -I Peter 2:24
Why would the God of Israel forbid the Jews for nearly two millenniums not to human sacrifice and punish them severely when they did, then turn right around and demand that Israel worship Himself as the very thing (a human sacrifice) that he was so against?

It seems that Christianity had a Gentile-based subconscious goal of retaining a form of pagan worship of human sacrifices while trying to connect with the God of Israel. In order to accomplish this they would make the animal sacrifices that was pleasing to God, only a type and a shadow (Hebrews 10:1) even though the Jewish scriptures never indicate in the slightest of suggestions that the sacrificial system is only a type of a human sacrifice to come. In fact, according to the Jewish prophecy of scripture, it is even after the Meshiach (messiah) ben David has come that the animal sacrificial system is fully restored to the Jewish people who have been gathered from the corners of the earth back to their ancient homeland in Israel! See Ezekiel 37:24-28 and Ezekiel chapters 40-48.

In the Christian view Jesus' human sacrifice is a death-penalty sacrifice for all types of sin. However, there never was a death-penalty sacrifice within the Jewish scripture, just the death penalty period. There was no type or shadow animal requirement that the sinner could sacrifice under the death-penalty that he / she might be resolved from such sin. So the question then becomes, how is Jesus' human sacrifice a death-penalty antitype when there was no death-penalty type or shadow animal sacrifice to begin with that would allow him to become the antitype?

Christianity's “type and shadow” doctrine doesn't work with the Jewish scriptures when one considers that the blood sacrifice was only required for unintentional sins ( Leviticus 4:27-29 / Numbers15:27-28) and even then if one wishes to get down to the fine specifics of types and shadows, this particular sacrifice of unintentional sin had to be a she-goat and not a male-lamb blood sacrifice as the book of Saint John paints Jesus. So if we run the type and shadow doctrine to its full potential, the Christian human sacrifice (the antitype) could only be applied to unintentional sins and not every type of sins.

The Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) once-a-year offering that Paul refers to in Hebrews 9:7 applied only to Israel as a community and not to the entire Gentile world. How then is Jesus' sacrifice the antitype to such a Israel-only sacrificial-type system (see St. John 1:29) especially when Paul negates Moses' command concerning this ritual to Israel: ” And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year.” – Leviticus 16:34.

As it turns out, even this holy Yom Kippur sacrifice didn't take away death-penalty sins. If it could have David who murdered Uriah the Hittite by proxy wouldn't have wrote of his blood-guilt the following: “Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God… for thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. – Psalms 51:14, 16-17. Under the Christian blood-sacrifice view David could have just waited until the next Yom Kippur offering to become guilt / sin-free. Killing a man because you got his wife pregant? No sweat, just keep it under the wraps until the next holiest day of the year, then your home free? – I think not. The sacrificial system was not a “out of jail free-card”.

Since the Yom Kippur sacrifice was for Israel only are we to understand that according to the Christian view, all the souls of the Gentile world would have continued to be (since the very first Yom Kippur sacrifice) eternally damned if indeed the Jewish nation would have accepted their Christian messiah? Perhaps then, instead of the Church persecuting the Jewish nations for nearly two thousand years as “Christ-killers” they should have been bowing down in thankfulness to the Jews for getting their fellow-Gentile Romans to kill (sacrificed) Jesus?

Speaking of which, the Yom Kippur sacrifice was to be carried out by using animal blood sprinkled by the Jewish High Priest of Aaron's clan, on the only provided place – the temple's altar inside the city of Jerusalem. In contrast, the Christian atonement was carried out using human blood, shed by Gentile Roman soldiers, outside the city nowhere near the only provided place -the temple's altar.1 With this in mind, it's easier to spiritually understand why the Christian atonement consisting of human sacrifice carried out by Gentile Romans, outside the Jewish spiritual headquarter, was predisposed to be the foundation of a Gentile religion called Christianity. Paul, being the foundation writer of the New Testament, changing his Jewish name of Saul to Gentile Paul only added to the inevitable.

Following the teaching of Gentile-named Paul (see Hebrews 9:22) the Christian proof-text of Leviticus 17:11 is used to falsely determine that blood was absolutely required for atonement. However, the context of Leviticus 17:10-12 is not at all addressing the issue of atonement for sin. It is addressing the prohibition of blood consumption, period. There is a doctrinal revealing reason why Christian apologists will NEVER quote verses 10 and 12 with Leviticus 17:11.2 To do so would yank the carpet out from under their proof-text. The context of all three verses would be too revealing, therefore the context is purposely hidden by quoting only verse 11 by itself.

The text of Leviticus 17:10-12 is stating the following:
“And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any m
anner of blood [subject of context] I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood [subject of context] and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [not the bones or the meat of the animal that the priest can eat but the blood that no man can consume because the blood is for an atonement]. Therefore [this word “therefore” – “Kee” in the Hebrew, connects the previous two verses with the following statement staying inline with the context] I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood [subject of context], neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood [subject of entire context].”

Taking into consideration the Torah's explicit and strict prohibition of blood consumption, doesn't Jesus' words, “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you” sound a little anti-Torah? especially since blood consumption was forbidden long before the Law of Moses was given to the Jewish nation (see Genesis 9:4). Yet the New Testament records no one questioning as to why Jehovah of the Torah who was so anti-consumption of blood in giving Moses His laws, would be just the opposite – being very pro-blood consumption – in using spiritual analogies?

There are plenty of situations where non-blood atonement was made in the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible. When Paul states in Hebrews 9:22 “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood” can be taken that not all things in the Law of Moses are purged by blood especially when it comes to atonement for the souls.
Leviticus 5:11 “But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.” This was a non-blood sacrifice that allowed the very poor to offer a sin-offering. Note, if it was blood that was absolutely required for sin and God is no respecter of persons, how then did the very poor get off without typing Jesus with a blood sacrifice of sin? I have yet to get a clear-cut answer from a Christian apologist.

Numbers 31:50 “We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.” Gold is not blood, yet gold was used in this one incident for the Israeli army to make an atonement for their souls. This is along the same line as the charity-atonement. “To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3
Numbers 16:46 “And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.” Here incense (not blood) on the altar was used for what the Bible calls an “atonement”.
II Samuel 12:13 “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.” As Psalms 51:16-17 indicates David did not have to blood-sacrifice in order to get his sins removed, in fact a “Song of David” states in the psalms “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us .” (Psalms 103:12)
I Kings 8:44-50 Solomon's temple prayer-prophecy that was purposely placed in holy script, allowed the Jews in exile (far away from the temple place of blood atonement) to pray towards Jerusalem and the temple when repenting of sins that God would forgive, “all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against”God.
Jonah 3:5-10 The people of Nineveh repeated at the words of Jonah and the Bible goes as far as telling us of their reactions of repentance. They covered themselves in sackcloth and sat in ashes and the king even proclaimed a fast. But in all of their expression of repentance guess what was missing in their very deep and sincere outward expression of repentance? – BLOOD! The Bible tells us that God saw their (non-blood) works of repentance and turned his anger from them. The question then becomes, “why would a blood-demanding God turn His anger from them without them blood sacrificing? Notice how this scripture in Jonah correlates in principle with I Kings 8:44-50 above.

Daniel 9:3-19 The Prophet Daniel confessed Israel's sins while in Babylon and asked God to forgive their sins without ever offering any blood sacrifices to God.
The Prophet Hosea prophesied that for “many days” the children of Israel would be without the sacrificial system (Hosea 3:4) pressed Israel to approach God with words (not animal blood) asking God to forgive their sins, and that bulls (for sacrifice) be traded for prayer-confession of the lips! (Hosea 14:1-2) Of this, the prophet Hosea noted that mercy and the knowledge of God is greater in God's eyes than any blood sacrifice offered to Him (Hosea 6:6)!
For 70 years the Jewish people were in Babylon where they could not blood-sacrifice at the temple mount in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 25:11-12). Using the actions and prophesies of King Solomon, Prophet Hosea, and Prophet Daniel (listed above) it becomes evident that the entire generation of Jewish people that included the prophet Daniel and the prophet Ezekiel living in Babylon and the prophet Jeremiah living in Egypt, was not without the possibility of having their sins forgiven and atoned for. Not only that particular 70 year Jewish generation but considering the generations that followed that stayed in Babylon and in Egypt for 500 plus years before Jesus' time (St. John 7:35) also was not without a way to have their sins forgiven and atoned for according to Hosea's “many days” prophecy (Hosea3:4 / 14:1-2). Are we to understand that because a Jew was living in exile away from Jerusalem and the temple that he was just out of luck, and would go to hell because he wasn't able to rid his sins by blood-sacrificing an animal as sin-offering in Jerusalem? Of course not!
For Paul or anyone else to suggest that it was or took literal blood that made the atonement possible is dead wrong! Any and all sacrifices (including the blood ones) were only as good as the human heart that brought it (Proverbs 21:27 /Isaiah 1:11-15 / Micah 6:7-8)! Regardless of how bloody the sacrifice was it could be rendered null and void if the human heart was not pure in bringing the sacrifice before the Lord, which is the basis behind any and all sacrifices, not the blood itself!
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This reality is not what is conveyed in Hebrews 9:22, just the opposite is! Christian apologists will give lip-service to the “Proverbs 21:27 Jewish Bible reality” but continue in the mindset and concept of Hebrews 9:22 that it was the “literal blood” and only the “literal blood” that atones and allows forgiveness of sins. By doing this they place the state of the human-heart and mind towards God (what should be first and foremost) as only “secondary” to the “literal blood” of the sacrifice!
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The fact remains that no Jewish scripture even comes close to indicating a human sacrifice of the coming end-of-days messiah. That theology has to be read into the text using pagan mythology as a guide. Osiris-Dionysus was a mythical god that died and rose on the third day after which a ritual celebration meal of bread and wine symbolized his body and blood.3
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The “Price” Factor and the True Meaning of the Word “Atonement”:
Because the New Testament doctrine involves a vicarious atonement through human sacrifice (Hebrews 9:28) the very meaning of “atonement” and “price” seem to merge in the Christian view. The Hebrew word “Kafar” as in “Yom Kipper” (Day of Atonement) means “to atone”. Like the the definition in English it means “to reconcile”
and to make amends through reparation. What it doesn't mean is “to pay an owed price” or “payment”. Likewise the Hebrew word for “repentance” (teshuvah) comes from the root word “shuv” meaning “to return” and not “to pay for something owed”! Both “atonement” and “repentance” in the Hebrew Bible has to do with reconciling and returning to God and not paying some sort of debt prices in order to obtain favor with God!
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The sacrificial system of the Hebrew Bible was a method of showing God ones earnest devotion in repentance, thankfulness, and praise (blessing towards God by an offering) and not a method by which to pay God an owed debt. The Hebrew Bible never indicates that the sin offerings were a debt payment but rather a way to express a reconciling with God. The view that the sacrificial system was a price-debt payment for ones sins was created to coincide with the “types and shadows of sacrifices” doctrine of the New Testament, something also foreign to the Hebrew Bible.
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The Christian “price-required” view of the Law of Moses has helped in giving the Hebrew Bible a bad “justice with no mercy” rap in their own minds. The question I like to ask is, if your spouse or child offends or angers you, do you demand a “price” to be paid before your fellowship with that spouse or child can be returned back to normal? or do you simply demand a change in their behavior that caused their offense in the first place, allowing their natural love for you cause them to be repentant of their offense? When we read God's most famous call to repentance within the Hebrew Bible we see no demand for a “price” to be paid in order for Israel (God's bride / son) to obtain a restored fellowship with God:
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” – II Chronicles 7:14
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There are several scriptures within the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible that should help those who have trouble getting passed the “price-blood required-atonement” issue that comes with the standard Christian view. But one must be willing to accept what the Hebrew Bible states on its own revealed word of God foundation without first running it through a New Testament filter for an interpretation.
” Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.” – Palms 40:6
“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” – Psalms 51:16-17
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” – Isaiah 1:11
“Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” – Micah 6:7-8
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” – Hosea 6:6
” To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3
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One must wonder that if Jehovah God of the Hebrew Bible was so dead-set on blood-sacrifices (pun not intended) first and foremost, why would such scriptures above appear even in the slightest of fashions that would indicate that there is something more meaningful to God of the Hebrew Bible than blood sacrifices in how man fellowships with Him and is reconciled to Him after sin?4
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One Final Note:
Referring to the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-36, the New Testament states, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:16-18) However, the prophet Ezekiel has a different view. In his future vision of the temple, “sin offerings” are very present (Ezekiel 40:39 / 42:13 / 43:22 / 45:19-20).
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The same prophet Ezekiel scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the children of Israel back into the “physical” land of their “physical” forefathers are the same scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the Jewish temple (Ezekiel 37:21-28). And that “physical temple” is detailed extensively in chapters 40 through 48 of the same book. The covenant along with the temple are to be restored among the people of Israel at the “End of days”. The question then becomes, why doesn't the Gentile-named Paul agree with Jewish named Ezekiel pertaining to the restoration and presence of sin-offerings during the Messianic Age or anytime after Jesus' time?
Source: http://judaism-now.blogspot.com/2009….in.html

Please share your views
Adam

February 9, 2010 at 6:14 am#176664

Participant

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Is A Blood Sacrifice Required For Atonement?

Quite often, missionaries will cite Hebrews 9:22 (NT) which states: “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission” (forgiveness of sin). But is this true? Is this a Jewish concept? After all the New Testament claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism as found in the Jewish Bible. Let us look at this question to see if the New Testament is telling the truth about this important subject.

The New Testament bases this idea on Leviticus 17:11 which says:

For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

From a simple reading of this, it seems that “blood makes atonement for the soul. Without blood atonement does not seem possible. But, is this the whole story?

First of all, we must always ask ourselves, “What is the full context of this verse.” An honest reading of Leviticus 17:10-14 shows clearly that the Torah is speaking about a prohibition against eating blood, not about atonement. Blood is considered important because when an animal is offered, the blood is the part that effects the atonement, not the skin or the bones. These passages are also here to tell us that the only permitted use of blood is on the altar, and no other.

But is a blood sacrifice the only means Hashem has given us to atone for our souls?

Absolutely not. Just as a store will allow you to pay by cash, or check, or credit card or food stamps, etc., so too Hashem allows us many way to atone for our souls.

The first step to appreciating this, is to actually look at the quote in the New Testament that missionaries cite to make their case. We will find that not only do they take Tanach verses out of context, but actually do the same thing to the New Testament as well. The entire verse reads:

Hebrews 9:22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Almost all things? I propose that Paul was aware that the atoning effect of blood did not cover everything, and that other means were available for atonement. Let us now examine the Tanach to see examples of where atonement was achieved in ways other than through a sin offering.

Examples:

This they shall give, every one who passes among those who are counted, half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary… The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering to the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls. (NO BLOOD).

Exodus 30:13-15

What if someone cannot afford an animal to sacrifice, is atonement closed to him?

But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering… Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord; it is a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him in regard to his sin that he has sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him; and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meal offering. (NO BLOOD).

Leviticus 5:11 -13

In most cases in the Bible, stories of the forgiveness of sin involve genuine, heart-wrenching repentance, which is really what Hashem desires most.

Bring no more vain offerings; incense of abomination they are to me…. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the orphan, plead for the widow. (NO BLOOD).

Isaiah 1:13-17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, 0 God, you will not despise. (NO BLOOD).

Psalm 51:19

Look at the story of David and the matter of Uriah. David is confronted with his sin, repents and is forgiven

And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David, The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. (NO BLOOD).

11 Samuel 12:13

Furthermore, following the Golden Calf:

And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people; now therefore let me alone, that my anger may burn hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of you a great nation. And Moses pleaded with the Lord his G-d, and said, Lord, why does your anger burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand… Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. (NO BLOOD).

Exodus 32:9-14

Concerning Nineveh, the Gentile city in the Book of Jonah:

Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness has come up before me…

And the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them, And word came to the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he took off his robe, and covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes … And God saw their doings, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, which he had said that he would do to them; and he did not do it. (NO BLOOD)

Jonah 1:2; 3:5-6, 10

Christians may ask, How is it possible to attain atonement without sacrifices? Since no sacrifices have been offered since the Temple was destroyed, Jews offer repentance instead. Christians will then ask, by what authority can we substitute words for sacrifices?

We read in Hosea an admonition from G-d through his prophet for us all.

O Israel, return to the Lord your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the Lord; say to him: Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of calves.

Hosea 14:2-3

Listen to the prayers of the prophet Daniel who lived during the exile in Babylon. His words of confession:

We have sinned, and have committed iniquity; and have done wickedly and have rebelled, and have departed from your precepts and from your judgments…

Daniel 9:5

And his plea for forgiveness:

To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him… 0 Lord, according to all your righteousness, I pray you, let your anger and your fury be turned away from your city Jerusalem, your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a- reproach to all those who are around us.

Daniel 9:9;16

Daniel asked God for forgiveness for himself and his people. Would Daniel be praying for something he couldn't have because he couldn't offer blood? Of course not. For Daniel knew of Hosea, and Daniel knew of Nathan the prophet's words about King David.

Lastly, we are told what we must do when we have been put out of our land, dispersed among all the nations and want forgiveness. Though this was spoken by King Solomon, it is applicable to us today, and it has nothing to do with blood, or Jesus.

“They shall pray unto the L-rd toward the city which You have chosen … and say … We have sinned … and so return to You with all their heart … forgive Your people that have sinned.

I Kings 8:44-50

Yes, we as Jews have sinned, in many ways. All of us, and we must follow the words of our prophets to return to
G-d.

Message to Messianic Jews

By the path you have chosen, you may have sinned in a very dangerous way, one that threatens to cut you off from the Jewish people, and threatens the eternity of your neshama (soul).

We are told in Deuteronomy 28:64

“And the Lord shall scatter you among all people from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known.”

It is important to see that the Jewish belief in G-d has standards. When Moses spoke to his generation of gods “that neither you nor your fathers worshipped”, he sought to exclude for all time all foreign views of G-d. Moses and his generation did not worship a trinity. They worshipped the one G-d who revealed Himself at Sinai.

Therefore, realize that it is no small thing to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It is idolatry and for a Jew is punishable by koras, the eternal cutting off of your soul. You can do teshuvah (repentance), and without a sacrifice, as your ancestors did. Return to the true G-d and to his people, who will accept you, as you receive forgiveness of sin.

Link: http://www.torahatlanta.com/article….ary.htm

Please examine
Adam

February 9, 2010 at 6:15 am#176665

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,16:42)

This is the view of a Christian converted to Judaism:

The text of Leviticus 17:10-12 is stating the following:
“And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood [subject of context] I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood [subject of context] and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [not the bones or the meat of the animal that the priest can eat but the blood that no man can consume because the blood is for an atonement]. Therefore [this word “therefore” – “Kee” in the Hebrew, connects the previous two verses with the following statement staying inline with the context] I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood [subject of context], neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood [subject of entire context].”

Daniel 9:3-19 The Prophet Daniel confessed Israel's sins while in Babylon and asked God to forgive their sins without ever offering any blood sacrifices to God.
The Prophet Hosea prophesied that for “many days” the children of Israel would be without the sacrificial system (Hosea 3:4) pressed Israel to approach God with words (not animal blood) asking God to forgive their sins, and that bulls (for sacrifice) be traded for prayer-confession of the lips! (Hosea 14:1-2) Of this, the prophet Hosea noted that mercy and the knowledge of God is greater in God's eyes than any blood sacrifice offered to Him (Hosea 6:6)!
For 70 years the Jewish people were in Babylon where they could not blood-sacrifice at the temple mount in Jerusalem (Jeremiah 25:11-12). Using the actions and prophesies of King Solomon, Prophet Hosea, and Prophet Daniel (listed above) it becomes evident that the entire generation of Jewish people that included the prophet Daniel and the prophet Ezekiel living in Babylon and the prophet Jeremiah living in Egypt, was not without the possibility of having their sins forgiven and atoned for. Not only that particular 70 year Jewish generation but considering the generations that followed that stayed in Babylon and in Egypt for 500 plus years before Jesus' time (St. John 7:35) also was not without a way to have their sins forgiven and atoned for according to Hosea's “many days” prophecy (Hosea3:4 / 14:1-2). Are we to understand that because a Jew was living in exile away from Jerusalem and the temple that he was just out of luck, and would go to hell because he wasn't able to rid his sins by blood-sacrificing an animal as sin-offering in Jerusalem? Of course not!
For Paul or anyone else to suggest that it was or took literal blood that made the atonement possible is dead wrong! Any and all sacrifices (including the blood ones) were only as good as the human heart that brought it (Proverbs 21:27 /Isaiah 1:11-15 / Micah 6:7-8)! Regardless of how bloody the sacrifice was it could be rendered null and void if the human heart was not pure in bringing the sacrifice before the Lord, which is the basis behind any and all sacrifices, not the blood itself!
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This reality is not what is conveyed in Hebrews 9:22, just the opposite is! Christian apologists will give lip-service to the “Proverbs 21:27 Jewish Bible reality” but continue in the mindset and concept of Hebrews 9:22 that it was the “literal blood” and only the “literal blood” that atones and allows forgiveness of sins. By doing this they place the state of the human-heart and mind towards God (what should be first and foremost) as only “secondary” to the “literal blood” of the sacrifice!
.
The fact remains that no Jewish scripture even comes close to indicating a human sacrifice of the coming end-of-days messiah. That theology has to be read into the text using pagan mythology as a guide. Osiris-Dionysus was a mythical god that died and rose on the third day after which a ritual celebration meal of bread and wine symbolized his body and blood.3
.
The “Price” Factor and the True Meaning of the Word “Atonement”:
Because the New Testament doctrine involves a vicarious atonement through human sacrifice (Hebrews 9:
28) the very meaning of “atonement” and “price” seem to merge in the Christian view. The Hebrew word “Kafar” as in “Yom Kipper” (Day of Atonement) means “to atone”. Like the the definition in English it means “to reconcile” and to make amends through reparation. What it doesn't mean is “to pay an owed price” or “payment”. Likewise the Hebrew word for “repentance” (teshuvah) comes from the root word “shuv” meaning “to return” and not “to pay for something owed”! Both “atonement” and “repentance” in the Hebrew Bible has to do with reconciling and returning to God and not paying some sort of debt prices in order to obtain favor with God!
.
The sacrificial system of the Hebrew Bible was a method of showing God ones earnest devotion in repentance, thankfulness, and praise (blessing towards God by an offering) and not a method by which to pay God an owed debt. The Hebrew Bible never indicates that the sin offerings were a debt payment but rather a way to express a reconciling with God. The view that the sacrificial system was a price-debt payment for ones sins was created to coincide with the “types and shadows of sacrifices” doctrine of the New Testament, something also foreign to the Hebrew Bible.
.
The Christian “price-required” view of the Law of Moses has helped in giving the Hebrew Bible a bad “justice with no mercy” rap in their own minds. The question I like to ask is, if your spouse or child offends or angers you, do you demand a “price” to be paid before your fellowship with that spouse or child can be returned back to normal? or do you simply demand a change in their behavior that caused their offense in the first place, allowing their natural love for you cause them to be repentant of their offense? When we read God's most famous call to repentance within the Hebrew Bible we see no demand for a “price” to be paid in order for Israel (God's bride / son) to obtain a restored fellowship with God:
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” – II Chronicles 7:14
.
There are several scriptures within the pre-Jesus Hebrew Bible that should help those who have trouble getting passed the “price-blood required-atonement” issue that comes with the standard Christian view. But one must be willing to accept what the Hebrew Bible states on its own revealed word of God foundation without first running it through a New Testament filter for an interpretation.
” Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.” – Palms 40:6
“For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” – Psalms 51:16-17
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” – Isaiah 1:11
“Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” – Micah 6:7-8
“For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.” – Hosea 6:6
” To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.” – Proverbs 21:3
.
One must wonder that if Jehovah God of the Hebrew Bible was so dead-set on blood-sacrifices (pun not intended) first and foremost, why would such scriptures above appear even in the slightest of fashions that would indicate that there is something more meaningful to God of the Hebrew Bible than blood sacrifices in how man fellowships with Him and is reconciled to Him after sin?4
.
One Final Note:
Referring to the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-36, the New Testament states, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:16-18) However, the prophet Ezekiel has a different view. In his future vision of the temple, “sin offerings” are very present (Ezekiel 40:39 / 42:13 / 43:22 / 45:19-20).
.
The same prophet Ezekiel scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the children of Israel back into the “physical” land of their “physical” forefathers are the same scriptures that tell us of the “physical” return of the Jewish temple (Ezekiel 37:21-28). And that “physical temple” is detailed extensively in chapters 40 through 48 of the same book. The covenant along with the temple are to be restored among the people of Israel at the “End of days”. The question then becomes, why doesn't the Gentile-named Paul agree with Jewish named Ezekiel pertaining to the restoration and presence of sin-offerings during the Messianic Age or anytime after Jesus' time?
Source: http://judaism-now.blogspot.com/2009….in.html

Please share your views
Adam

Hi Adam,

Will you discount Scripture and bolster the systems of religion?
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

Zeph.1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand:
for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Hebrews 9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission(of Sin).
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Hebrews 10-12 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 9, 2010 at 6:39 am#176669

Participant

gollamudi,

I find it amazing when people do not understand what God meant when he stated “I desire Mercy, Not Sacrifice”.

Why do you think that statement answers you question about human sacrifice and Jesus' action of choosing to die on the cross?

February 9, 2010 at 6:54 am#176674

Participant

Hi brother Ed J,
Please read my posts with care you will understand the interpretation of Jewish scriptures properly.

February 9, 2010 at 11:33 am#176715

Elizabeth

Participant

goll

You already quoted scripture that says, blood is required for a sin offering; but that was the requirement of the old testament. In order to make atonement (at-one-ment), with the Father, something else had to die for your sins, shed blood. God, however, never demanded human sacrifice from his people; those were pagan believes.
An animal sacrifice however, could only make atonement for your sins, it could not remove the penalty, death.
It required some one that was not effected by Adams sin, and did not sin himself. So, it should be obvious that no one on earth could qualify. That is why God sent his son, Jesus, he was no descendant of Adam, and not effected by his sin.
Jesus not guilty of sin, and not deserving of death, took our sins and placed them on himself, by so doing removed the death penalty from us; which means, we will all be resurrected; but it doesn't stop there, that is just the first step in most peoples salvation, because they now have to learn why they died, and what caused their death. It is during the millennium when all will be taught; those that repent and believe will receive the gift of God,

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

those that refuse will die again.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet (Jesus), shall be
destroyed from among the people.

Georg

February 9, 2010 at 12:19 pm#176720

Participant

Gollamundi,

Could you answer my question about how God's desire for mercy and not sacrifice relates to Jesus' choice to die on the cross?

I also ask you to consider that the penalty for any sin is death.

These are some other questions to consider.

What does repent mean?

What does atone mean?

February 9, 2010 at 4:57 pm#176734

Elizabeth

Participant

kerwin

I think you will find the answers in what I said in my post.

Georg

February 10, 2010 at 5:00 am#176829

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,17:54)

Hi brother Ed J,
Please read my posts with care you will understand the interpretation of Jewish scriptures properly.

Hi Adam,

You discount the Scriptures I gave to you; why?
Isn't proper understanding to accept them all?

Ed J

February 10, 2010 at 2:35 pm#176916

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2010,17:39)

gollamudi,

I find it amazing when people do not understand what God meant when he stated “I desire Mercy, Not Sacrifice”.

Why do you think that statement answers you question about human sacrifice and Jesus' action of choosing to die on the cross?

Hi brother Kerwin,
My post says that blood is not alone required for atonement of human sins and that too human sacrifice was never meant for atonement for sin in Hebrew scriptures. It is purely the invention of Paul and other early christians to interpret Jesus' death as sacrifice for human sins. Please see the arguments of Jews in my posts above and argue on them in detail.

Peace to you
Adam

February 10, 2010 at 2:40 pm#176917

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 10 2010,16:00)

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,17:54)

Hi brother Ed J,
Please read my posts with care you will understand the interpretation of Jewish scriptures properly.

Hi Adam,

You discount the Scriptures I gave to you; why?
Isn't proper understanding to accept them all?

Ed J

Hi brother Ed J,
The scriptures you gave are purely Christian in nature therefore the bias towards human sacrifice for sin atonement is always there. Please see the arguments of Jews who nullify the need of human sacrifice for sin atonement. Even today Jews are approaching God for forgiveness of sins without any blood sacrifice during the time when there is no Temple. It happened in the time of Daniel when the first Temple was destroyed. Don't you see their arguments?

February 10, 2010 at 11:01 pm#177012

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,01:40)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 10 2010,16:00)

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,17:54)

Hi brother Ed J,
Please read my posts with care you will understand the interpretation of Jewish scriptures properly.

Hi Adam,

You discount the Scriptures I gave to you; why?
Isn't proper understanding to accept them all?

Ed J

HI Adam,

Do you see what the Hebrews Scriptures tell us concerning [יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh.
These verses are NEITHER inconsequential NOR irrelevant!

Isaiah 53:3-12 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb
to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul,
and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Zeph.1:3-8 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven,
and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked;
and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops;
and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD,
nor enquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD:
for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice,
he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice,
that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

Here is the genealogy of the First people written in Genesis…
Adam (the first man) through Noah (the first savior).
All their Hebrew names carry meanings: These meanings Point to…
“The Savior”=117 [117=יהוה האלהים] in Jesus Christ(God's Son).

Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching,
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing,
Noah Rest or comfort.

Read as a sentence, is a hidden code, offering Proof that God
(who originated outside of time) Prophesied: That Jesus=74 was the Messiah=74…

Man Appointed Mortal Sorrow; The Blessed God(YHVH) Shall come down
Teaching, His death(Jesus) shall bring The Despairing, Rest or comfort.

Luke 2:34: And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold,
this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

“YHVH is GOD”=117

PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 10, 2010 at 11:02 pm#177013

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,01:40)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 10 2010,16:00)

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2010,17:54)

Hi brother Ed J,
Please read my posts with care you will understand the interpretation of Jewish scriptures properly.

Hi Adam,

You discount the Scriptures I gave to you; why?
Isn't proper understanding to accept them all?

Ed J

Hi Adam,

The crucifixion account of [יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh…

Psalm 22:1-1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me,
and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not;
and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me;
for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me:
strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths,
as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint:
my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet.I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him,
all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations
shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him:
and none can keep alive his own soul. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 11, 2010 at 5:51 am#177101

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 10 2010,20:35)

Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2010,17:39)

gollamudi,

I find it amazing when people do not understand what God meant when he stated “I desire Mercy, Not Sacrifice”.

Why do you think that statement answers you question about human sacrifice and Jesus' action of choosing to die on the cross?

Peace to you
Adam

Then you do not understand what God meant when he stated I desire mercy not sacrifice.

Jesus action was self sacrifice much like what Samson did when he also ended his life. That is not the same as taking a young girl your own daughter who was first to meet you on the way coming home and sacrificing her. Strangely, enough scripture also commends the man did that abhorrent deed but that is not what Jesus did.

Do you remember the story of Sampson and how he brought the house down on the enemies of God at the cost of his own life?

With his death Jesus destroyed the enemies of God and so set man free bondage to sin. In this way his self sacrifice was an act of mercy and obedience to God.

Psalms 40:6-8(NIV) reads:

Quote

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.

Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.

I desire to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart.”

February 12, 2010 at 10:48 am#177391

Participant

THE PLAN OF SALVATION
The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a perfect representation of the plan of salvation in action. The
sin of the prodigal had been a contrary will, with the father wanting only that the son return to the
father's house, and the son's contrary will set on his great aspirations for life in the far country –
anything but the father's house! As a result, his relation with the father was ruptured and he was
lost in the realm of the dead. There was never anything he could have done to deliver himself
from this death and lostness – no penitence, no sacrifice, no confession, nothing whatever while
his devotion to the far country endured. The only thing he could do, the only solution to his
problem of deadness and lostness was to change his mind so as no longer to be devoted to life in
the far country and genuinely to yearn for a restoration to the life in the father's house. He had to
repent so as to bring his will into harmony with the single will of his father and he needed to
confess the error of his way. And his father rejoiced and said, “My son was dead and is alive,
was lost and is found!” He was saved and that's all there is to it!

Atonement Not Required

The prodigal's father did not require atonement for sin – nor does God in heaven. This father did
not remain behind the locked door of his house while the weeping son petitioned from outside. He
did not call out, “Where is my sacrifice whereby I may be propitiated for your sins?” Nor does
God in heaven. This father did not send the innocent elder brother out into the far country to seek
the lost son by shedding his blood in an atoning sacrifice – nor did God in heaven. What sort of
father is it who requires the death and the suffering of bloodshed by his loyal, devoted and
innocent son before he would receive and forgive his willful, wayward and guilty son? Not the
father of the prodigal son, neither God in heaven! And Jesus very emphatically stated this when
he quoted the prophet Hosea who first uttered these words of the Father in the world: I desire
mercy, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6, Matthew 9:13, 12:7).

Jesus was No Sacrifice in his Death

The Father does not require a sacrifice for the expiation of sins; he never did. Our sins require no
atonement or expiation. Somewhere, back near the beginning, perhaps Paul, other apostles or
even John the Baptist was responsible for first uttering this reprehensible proclamation,
Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)!
But Jesus was no sacrificial lamb. Search his words throughout the gospels and see that,
whenever he resorted to this pastoral metaphor, he is always the shepherd. We are the lambs
and the sheep of his pasture.

To be sure, he said he was “the good shepherd,” and the good shepherd lays down his life for the
sheep. That is clear enough. But there is not the remotest hint or suggestion that his death was
an atoning sacrifice, a propitiation for sin or blood shed to appease an angry god. So, when
Jesus came to his death, he died as the shepherd and not as a lamb. This metaphor, according
to which Jesus identified himself as a shepherd in his death, absolutely annuls any thought of his
being a sacrificial lamb. Had the latter been the case, with the central emphasis accorded to it
throughout Christendom, he would never have confused the issue by identifying himself in his
death with the shepherd! It is only lambs that were slaughtered on the blood altars of sacrifice –
not shepherds. Far more likely is it that, knowing there would be an attempt to make of him a
lamb of sacrifice, he took this occasion to absolutely rule out such ideas. As it is, the only way
that Christians can preach and subscribe to this heinous doctrine of the substitutionary atoning
sacrifice is by utterly ignoring the words of their Lord.

The Purpose of the Crucifixion

Then why was he crucified? How was it that he died for us if not as a sin sacrifice?
Jesus answered this question in all four gospels, directly and straightforwardly, if you are able to
receive it. Please refer to the parallel arrangement of gospel texts that includes the Great
Principle. Here, according to every gospel witness, he explained his approaching death. This
supremely important principle warranted Jesus' response to it – he laid down his life to
demonstrate its full significance to the world. That is the primary reason for his death – it proved
the seriousness of the thing. Even the Son of God had to hate his life on earth to save it for
eternity! If it applied to him, then it must apply to every other person on earth for, as Jesus
stated,
Who ever would save his life will lose it (Luke 9:24).
That is why it is of paramount importance for all that would be his disciples to realize that Jesus
did not lose his life. No one took it from him, as he explained, but he laid it down because he
wanted to return to the Father just as would any loyal son. He chose this way to do it to make a
statement to the world, a statement that would brand the pages of holy writ with this expression of
the Great Principle for all time.

The Cross

The crucifixion of Jesus involved a cross – and coming as it did as the instrument of his passage
from this world to the Father's house, it became symbolic of every such passage. So, whatever
the details, every individual has his own cross to bear in imitation of Jesus. His cross was
therefore not unique – except as the first, to show the Way so that we will know to follow. This is
precisely as Jesus expressed it:
Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple (Luke
14:27, Matthew 10:38).
We cannot find salvation by trusting in the cross of Jesus while avoiding our own – this false
doctrine of Christendom, which is nevertheless well nigh universal, is a delusion. We have no
lesser authority for this conclusion than Jesus himself. Each one has to bear his or her own
cross. Jesus set the example and showed the way, therefore his crucifixion was a demonstration
to all men and women of the Way to the Father. We cannot slip through under the tails of his
seamless robe!
Whatever the details of each individual's cross, it must inevitably incorporate renunciation of the
life in this world, defined by Jesus as renunciation of all we have:
So, therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple
(Luke 14:33).
He powerfully reinforced this statement by his injunction regarding treasure:
…do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and
where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where
neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves cannot break in and steal. For where
your treasure is, there will your heart be also (Matthew 6:19-21).
While the prodigal son's treasure was sited in the far country, there was his heart; when he came
to himself and realized the truth of his situation, he repented of the far country's treasures and
transferred his heart to his father's house. This turning from his life in the far country can be
interpreted as his cross, for he had to go through it to come to his senses and turn his back on
the far country and his heart away from it. But no one other than himself had to suffer for his
redemption! Perhaps it was to avoid such a connection as Christendom has made – that Jesus
purchased our redemption with his own blood on the cross – that Jesus' parable keeps the
prodigal's elder brother in the father's house. He was not required to go to the far country and
suffer for the sins of his young sibling nor did Jesus come into the world for that purpose.

The Ransom

Additionally, Jesus considered
his death on the cross to be a ransom payment, as in the following
synoptic utterance:
For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a
ransom (Greek, lutron) for many (Mark 10:45, Matthew 20:28).
The Greek word applies to the price paid for redemption of captives, whether slaves or
otherwise. In its ancient context, it applied to the price paid by a defeated party to the victorious
party for the redemption of captives taken during war, and also to the price paid to purchase or
redeem slaves. In the modern context, the closest parallel is the price paid to a kidnapper to
redeem the person kidnapped, but in all cases it carries the same idea – the price of redemption
of captives. This ransom utterance of Jesus was added to the end of an instruction to his
disciples to become servants of each other. The thought was that he himself was paying the price
of their redemption from their prior captivity so that they would be free to enter into the service of
their brothers and sisters in the fellowship of Jesus.
This leads us inevitably to question the nature of the prior captivity of disciples, and how it is that
the life of Jesus could reasonably serve as a ransom payment to secure their redemption. The
passage from Hebrews, already cited, accurately reflects the answers to these questions. There
the author writes,
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the
same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that
is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong
bondage (Hebrews 2:14,15).
Clearly, the captivity is to the devil. He secures it by imposing the fear of death. This effectively
gives to the devil the “power of death” as stated here. The power of death is the fear of death.
Thus, if the captives are to be delivered, it must be a deliverance from the bond that holds them,
which is the fear of death. Such deliverance effectively 'destroys' the devil in so far as the
captives are concerned, since he has no more power over them, keeping in mind that his only
power is the power of death that is the fear of death. Therefore it was necessary that Jesus
partake of the same 'flesh and blood' nature as the rest of mankind so that he might confront the
devil and provide a deliverance that men can understand.
In reality, the power of death is only apparent and it was necessary that one demonstrate to
mankind the powerlessness of death by experiencing it willingly, then rising to show its lack of
power. That is what Jesus did through the giving of his earth-life. It was a price of redemption
that he paid to deliver us from this bondage to the devil through the fear of death. Since the devil
possessed the power of death, it is in some sense to the devil that he pays the ransom even
though he defeated the devil through the collection of the ransom. Furthermore, it is the slaves of
the devil who are active in the ransom collection, namely persons who are acting under the
motivation of the fear of death. This is of course not the first or only time that a kidnapper has lost
his power in the process of collecting his ransom!
Jesus had other things to say about the plan of salvation. Here we have shown that salvation as
he conceived it is simply this: the children can be saved, or go home to the Father, whenever they
want to. That is the key. The Father awaits us, grieving for us in our lost and dead state. There
must then be “joy in heaven” over one sinner who repents! We will delve into the other details
later, while comparing Jesus' salvation doctrine with that of Paul.

Source: http://voiceofjesus.org/b2chapter7.html#Plan%20of%20Salvation

February 12, 2010 at 11:08 am#177392

Participant

Here is a better example:

Exodus 32:30-33(NIV) reads:

Quote

The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

February 12, 2010 at 12:44 pm#177399

terraricca

Participant

hi ; Christ did not die for the carnal sins

he died for the sins that prevent reconciliation with God,
men sins related to God are the sins Christ die for,all the other one can be treated on there own.

February 12, 2010 at 1:53 pm#177401

Elizabeth

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2010,23:44)

hi ; Christ did not die for the carnal sins

he died for the sins that prevent reconciliation with God,
men sins related to God are the sins Christ die for,all the other one can be treated on there own.

terraricca

Name me one sin that God would look at as not a sin, or that would be exempt from the penalty of sin, or that Christ did not die for.

Georg

February 13, 2010 at 3:52 am#177515