How is Jesus not God?

Participant

Hi Lu,

I'd be cautious if you are using the NASU Version of the Bible. The KJV and NKJV say “the only begotten Son,” I'm not a Greek Scholar either, but I looked up the word Son for that verse and the definitions or translated words for Son donot translate to God. So I really don't know how they ended up with that.

May 23, 2008 at 6:44 am#89555

Participant

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 23 2008,18:10)

Hi Lu,

Hi gsilva72

The NET Bible has some information about this. The Net is a New Translation that is still in the works.

Here is some info about NET.

The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators’ notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators’ notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator’s shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible’s truth from entirely new perspectives.

Source

John 1:18 NET
No one has ever seen God. The only one [45], himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

You will notice the numbers next to the words that have commentary. Click on them and you can see the reasons they interpreted the text that way.

Here is the commentary on the words “The Only one” [45] in John 1:18

The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh” qeo”, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh” Juio”, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ �1,13 � lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. �75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in �66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo” hn Jo logo”) means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

tn Or “The unique one.” For the meaning of μονογενής (monogenh”) see the note on “one and only” in 1:14.

Source

The Greek word for “Only Begotten” is 'Monogenes' which simply means; the Unique One.

Jesus is the Only “Unique One” because he is the Word that was with God and was God and that came in the flesh.

Jesus is both God and man. God in the flesh!

Hope the NET helps in your studies.

Blessings!

May 23, 2008 at 7:16 am#89556

gollamudi

Participant

Thanks Gene, for your positive comments about me. It's all because of God our Savior and His Christ Jesus. I know WJ must be boiling about us. Infact the honour and name above all names given to Jesus, our elder brother was by our God and Father.

Hi WJ, “knowing the only True God and Jesus the Christ who had been sent by the same God” is the source of eternal life. Yes Father had authenticated Jesus to give eternal life to all who believe in his name, the name belong to the Father again.
“Whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved ” is fulfilled in the name of Jesus. Not that Jesus himself is God. The name belongs to God his Father, which means “Jehovah Savior”.
Yes Paul was striving for achieving resurrection through Jesus. Our God the Father made a way to achieve His will through Jesus the Christ. Christ means the anointed or the Messiah. Jews never thought that the coming Messiah will be God himself. Your interpretations about Jesus are completely wrong and misleading. Please read any Epistle of Paul You will find there is always a distinction between God and Jesus. Jesus was addressed as the Son of God not as God the Son as you Trinitarians always address Jesus.
I am here to counter the false arguements of yours and others who interpret Bible in that way.
I also suffered a lot believing this alleged doctrine of Trinity years together. you know in India our Hindu religion also believes the trinity, there are three persons in godhead Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwara(Shiva). Brahma is creator, Vishnu is sustainer and Shiva is the destroyer. My early christian life I was also believing that in christianity also there are three persons in Godhead, Father son and Holy Spirit. But I was having many queries about this belief. No one was able to reply my queries. They used to say you can not fully understand God and further they used to close the subject by using the word mystery. By the grace of God for the past few years all my doubts about this trinity concept being answered by God through many men of God through internet. I praise God for that. Now no one can shake me in my convictions about the God of the Bible and real Christ.
For your information, I am writing these posts from my office thats why I am not able to write lengthy posts with many verses. Sorry for that.
Brother WJ if I hurt you sorry for that. I plead you to read the word of God with open mind not with old inhibitions. God will reveal wonderful truths from His Bible.
Peace to you.
Adam

May 23, 2008 at 11:24 am#89560

TimothyVI

Participant

Hi worshippingJesus,
thanks for that link to NET bible.

Tim

May 23, 2008 at 3:02 pm#89564

Participant

Adam………….Amen brother….> the triune God ideologies is not only in the pagan teachings of India but also in the Pagan teaching of the Greeks and Egyptians and the early church was infected with these false teachings. The whole concept of the trinity has it's origins in paganism. The bishops from the areas of Egypt and Greece like Athanasius in filtered these pagan ideologies into the early Christian churches in there areas. All early history of the church shows it came from the these areas of strong pagan influences.

What more interesting to me though is how simple the truth is to understand and how complicated the Lie is. BY reading the very words of Jesus you cn very easly see His relationship with the Father and His simple Humanity, to me it so good to know what the Father can do for a simple human being.

Adam……>May God bless you and Keep you, make His face to shine on you, and be gracious unto you, lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

gene

May 23, 2008 at 3:27 pm#89565

Participant

WJ………..Jesus is the unique One because of His berth and His ministry which was (foreordained) from the foundations of the earth. He was the second (ADAM) born like Adam by the direct Hand of God. That makes Him unique and it also made Adam and Eve unique also. Has nothing to do with His so called equality with God or Deity Trinitarians teach.

So mow we have (another) translation to add to the hundreds of others. I thought you said the 200 Past Scholars had it right. Seams now we need another 25 more to try to figure out the tangled wed of the first 200 or so, earlier ones. It would be interesting to know of what Faiths there From.

Well, at least you now admit the word (ONLY) means (UNIQUE) that is progress.

IMO…..gene

May 23, 2008 at 3:44 pm#89566

Participant

WJ……Did You add the word (ONLY) to what the 25 scholars said, i didn't see it in there interpretation of the word.
again if you are going to quote your scholars please quote without adding manning to the texts.

IMO…….gene

May 23, 2008 at 3:52 pm#89567

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 23 2008,23:24)

Hi worshippingJesus,
thanks for that link to NET bible.

Tim

Your are welcome!

Blessings!

May 23, 2008 at 5:32 pm#89569

Participant

to all……I went over and checked out “next bible” site. Lets see how they these socalled 25 scholars deal with the subjects we talk about.

John 17:3….Notice how they replaced the word (ONLY) with (ONE) You see one means there could be more (Trinitarian Ideology), but the Word (ONLY) Means their isn't any more. And where Jesus Said your name they simply don't commit on it, interesting don't you think.

Mark 12:29…Listen Israel the Lord our God, the lord is one. Instead of listen “O” Israel the Lord our God is One Lord. And you would think they would surely commit on that, but not only do they not quote it right they don't even commit on it . They commit on things before it and after it but not on it.

This bible site is pure Trinitarian and pushes Trinitarian Ideologies, trying to act like there the authorities on Scripture when in fact there pure Heretics. I also noticed while they used the manes of Men like Metzer and Ehrman they down play there findings. They only take what fits their Trinitarian view points and giving you along list of so called bible scholars and critics, but don't tell you, they only use what fit there Ideologies. That sit is simple a pure trinitarian site and corrupts the plain language of scriptures.

Check it out.

Peace to you all and May God guard you from this Garbage………gene

May 23, 2008 at 10:30 pm#89586

Participant

Mathew 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

I guess since Jesus isn't deity, the above were breaking the 1st commandment.

May 23, 2008 at 11:02 pm#89589

942767

Participant

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 24 2008,10:30)

Mathew 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

I guess since Jesus isn't deity, the above were breaking the 1st commandment.

Hi gsilva72:

There is only one God. Jesus worthy all of our honor and respect. Without him we would still be in our sins. He never claimed to be God.

The following scriptures use the same word “worship” and they are addressed to the church of Philadelphia. Obviously, they are not God.

Quote

Rev 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

But Jesus is God in that he is the express image of God's person.

God Bless

May 23, 2008 at 11:03 pm#89590

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

goll

I don’t think you know me very well. I am not at all boiling. I have been here for awhile now and I do not think that anyone who disagrees with me has made me boil.

Especially when they have very little scriptural support.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

Usually when someone counters false arguments about scriptures then they have scriptural evidence to do such, or at least leaves some links as to where they get their info.

Since you say Jesus is not God then why don’t you show me how you interpret the scriptures that call him God?

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

I also suffered a lot believing this alleged doctrine of Trinity years together.

Really? I am sorry to hear about your suffering. I am curious about how you suffered as a Trinitarian. Was it that you had to deal with people that did not agree with your change of heart? If the suffering was people rejecting you because of your doctrinal position then I know a bunch about that. This sight brings plenty of mental persecution to Trinitarians from people trying to lead them astray into another Gospel and to accept another Jesus that they had not received. The constant name calling and patronizing and condescending remarks are nothing but spiritual stones to silence and kill the witnessing Spirit.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

you know in India our Hindu religion also believes the trinity, there are three persons in godhead Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwara(Shiva). Brahma is creator, Vishnu is sustainer and Shiva is the destroyer. My early Christian life I was also believing that in christianity also there are three persons in Godhead, Father son and Holy Spirit. But I was having many queries about this belief. No one was able to reply my queries. They used to say you can not fully understand God and further they used to close the subject by using the word mystery.

Yes I have heard this argument before, however no one has been able to prove this to be a fact. Where is the evidence? Maybe you can show me. I doubt it though. How do you know that these other religions didn’t borrow the Trinity concept from Christianity or the Hebrews, after all the word “Elohyim” is a plural word. As far as the word “Mystery”, your contention is with Yeshua and the Apostles which used the word some 27 times in the NT.

The greek word is “musterion”, which means;

1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
c) a hidden purpose or counsel

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Cor 4:1

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

By the grace of God for the past few years all my doubts about this trinity concept being answered by God through many men of God through internet. I praise God for that. Now no one can shake me in my convictions about the God of the Bible and real Christ.

Interesting! I never doubted the Jesus I first received. Whenever I hear things like this I am always reminded of this scripture…

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough 2 Cor 11:3, 4

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

For your information, I am writing these posts from my office thats why I am not able to write lengthy posts with many verses. Sorry for that.

I am not talking about lengthy post. I am merely saying to show the source of where you get your info.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

Brother WJ if I hurt you sorry for that. I plead you to read the word of God with open mind not with old inhibitions. God will reveal wonderful truths from His Bible.
Peace to you.
Adam

No hurt at all. I have had dialogue with many here on HN, and you and GB are far from being convincing. One thing that I try to look at is fruit. Jesus said we would know them by their fruits. Kindness, Love, patience, and respect are acts that brothers in Christ should especially show toward each other. People like Is 1:18, 94, TimothyVI, gsilva72, not3, Lightenup, and many others, seek to show respect to others and tolerance for their bel
iefs without name calling, accusations, and belittleing the person. These people truly exemplify fruit.

It seems that you both assume that because I don’t agree with you, that I don’t have an open mind. That seems a little condescending and prideful don’t you think? You do not know anything about my Love for my God nor about my sincerity in sharing the Gospel of Christ.

But I will respect your right to believe as you wish with the desire that some day we will all come to the unity of the faith.

Blessings!

May 24, 2008 at 3:10 am#89603

gollamudi

Participant

Hi WJ, Thanks for your caring reply. I appreciate your concern for me. I also never doubted my belief in Jesus as son of God who is the source of my salvation.You misquoted me. There is a big difference in your beliefs and mine.
I also appreciate your concern for the Gospel of Christ, do continue my brother. But try to understand the concept of God clearly. That's what I am expecting from you. How can you make Son of God to God himself. This is where we both differ. When you say there is only one God where is the question of calling Jesus another God?. Don't mystify God as we do in India. Like three headed god or four headed goddess available in India with many hands. Understand God of bible in a simple manner, we are made in the image of God like Jesus our brother. We all will share the same glory in resurrection like our elder brother Jesus (1 John 3:1-3). We will be co-heirs with Jesus in God's family. How marvelous this will be.
I don't want to say more than this, because you can not like my words.
Peace to you.
Adam

May 24, 2008 at 6:10 am#89613

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ May 24 2008,15:10)

Hi WJ, Thanks for your caring reply. I appreciate your concern for me. I also never doubted my belief in Jesus as son of God who is the source of my salvation.You misquoted me.

You are welcome. Sorry if I misquoted you. Maybe I misunderstood you. You said…

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

My early Christian life I was also believing that in christianity also there are three persons in Godhead, Father son and Holy Spirit.

When you say you believed in three persons in the Godhead, then I assumed that meant when you accepted Christ you believed he was God right?
But know you no longer believe in the same Jesus you believed in before, is that correct?

All I was saying is for me the Jesus I believed in never changed, he is the same, yesterday today and forever.

I can sincerely tell you that Yeshua is real in my life and in the 34 years I have walked with him, he has never come to me and said “Keith don’t worship and put so much honor on me because I am not God”.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

There is a big difference in your beliefs and mine.
I also appreciate your concern for the Gospel of Christ, do continue my brother. But try to understand the concept of God clearly. That's what I am expecting from you. How can you make Son of God to God himself.

I never can quite understand this logic especially when you and GB say there are other gods. I assume that like the Henotheist you believe Jesus is some sort of god right? The term God as you know is a “title” that describes the nature of a being. God, animals, humans, aliens, angels etc. You say “How can you make Son of God to God himself”.

The same way I can make you the son of your Father, human just like your Father, ontologically you are of the same substance as your natural Father, but you are not your Father are you?

Just as Jesus came in the flesh and was found in the likeness of man, and was 100% perfect human, in everyway Spiritually he is like his Father God. To see him as any less than God is to have a degraded image of the Invisible God for ontologically he is of the same substance as his Father. Heb 1:3

The Father and the Son share the same Spirit. For we have only received one Spirit. Yeshua is not walking in the flesh anymore.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

This is where we both differ. When you say there is only one God where is the question of calling Jesus another God?

Those are your words not mine. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God. Remember God is a title describing the nature of a being.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

Don't mystify God as we do in India. Like three headed god or four headed goddess available in India with many hands. Understand God of bible in a simple manner, we are made in the image of God like Jesus our brother.

The God of the Bible is an infinitely complex God. So many presume that they have him all figured out. Just look at the universe and then ask your self if God is simple. He can be simple, but lets not stop there, lets move on to perfection. The nature of God will forever be revealed to us for he is bigger than time and transcends our wildest imaginations. How can our puny little minds logically understand such greatness? How great is our God.

Quote (gollamudi @ May 23 2008,19:16)

We all will share the same glory in resurrection like our elder brother Jesus (1 John 3:1-3). We will be co-heirs with Jesus in God's family. How marvelous this will be.
I don't want to say more than this, because you can not like my words.
Peace to you.
Adam

We already are co-heirs with Christ and are part of God’s family. So let us go onto perfection and maturity.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

Jesus sits at the right Hand of the throne of God, not beneath the Father, nor above him, but in the very bosom of the Father and the Father is in him as One God.

Gollamudi, have you ever noticed that wherever your treasure is there is where your heart will be? It’s kind of like buying that new car, then suddenly you notice that car everywhere. When our affection is on Yeshua the author and the finisher of our faith, suddenly we begin to notice how much the scriptures are about him.

Jesus said…

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39, 40.

Blessings! Keith

May 24, 2008 at 12:13 pm#89626

Proclaimer

Participant

Jesus is not God because scripture tells us that Jesus is the son of God. This is not a passing comment in scripture but a foundational truth of the Church that needs to be brought out into the light in these days.

Scripture says that God is invisible and Jesus is the image of this invisible God.

Scripture says that there is one God, the Father.

Scripture does not say that Jesus is the invisible God and that no one can see him. Plenty of people have seen Jesus, even in Heaven.

No one can see the invisible God and that God is simply not Jesus. No clever doctrine will destroy the truth that Jesus is the son of God. Not even the gates of Hell will prevail against that truth. It might prevail in certain people's lives, but that truth will never be snuffed out.

May 24, 2008 at 7:49 pm#89633

Participant

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

If Jesus isn't God, then I guess he is a skitsofrantic. He said “WE will come unto him”

May 24, 2008 at 8:04 pm#89634