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Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,16:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,16:32) I don't even reach for my bible anymore.
That's a tragedy Mandy, seriously. I think you've bought into a lie. The translations aren't perfect, that's true, but that is not to say that the original autographs were not, and the essential truths have been preserved I believe. All scripture was and still is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Yes Is 1.18,
And no mention of any trinity God is found there.
So why not let the concept go and cling to what is written?Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,11:08) I guess the questions being begged then are – is it the Spirit where the individual's centre of consciousness exists, is it where their identity and personality comes from? Are spirits even unique to the individual, or is it universal to the kind or being. I personally don't have a problem accepting Yeshua and the Father shared the same Spirit. This is the natural and ONLY LOGICAL inference that could be taken from these verses: 1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.and;
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.and;
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.cf.
John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.and;
John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.More than one identity indwells the believer, yet only one Spirit. So Yeshua and the Father sharing the same Spirit does not make them the same person. In my humble opinion the identity comes from the soul, not the Spirit. So I do not see this as any kind of refutation of trinitarianism.
Blessings
Hi Is 1:18So you are saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have seperate souls, thus making them seperate persons.
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 18 2008,13:11) Hi Is 1:18 So you are saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have seperate souls, thus making them seperate persons.
Yes, I suppose that is what I think. I have come to understand that it is the soul where the centre of consciousness exists in each person, and it is the Spirit that enables/preserves life. Yeshua and the Father are different persons, have different identities, yet they are also one (in nature). So yes, to me they have different souls but share the same divine spirit. But I'd have to qualify this by saying the concepts I've expressed probably oversimplify what are very complex, metaphysical realities – especially when it pertains to the Supreme being. The Bible simply doesn't give a detailed explanation, but leaves it to us to infer. That's what I've done.Blessings
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 18 2008,13:11) 1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.and;
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.and;
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.cf.
John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.and;
John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
How would you reconcile these verses gsilva72?Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,08:28) Hi Bro. Isaiah: I am doing well brother, and I hope that you and your family are doing well also. Do you have another child on the way?
Hi SDN,
Yes we are all fine thanks. Busy during the week and trying to find the time to relax on the weekends. It's a fast paced life for the modern family!! No, no kids on the way. Our youngest is only 15 months.Quote Please explain what you mean by the following. I am not sure I am understanding you here. Although I think that at least some of our personality traits are preprogrammed
I was responding to this comment (in bold) you made on a post you wrote on pg 9 (emphasis mine):
Quote That is because the Word of God which is the spirit of the Son has come form God. There is but one God, and there is only One only begotten Son but many sons of God. The Father and Son are two distinct souls or individuals, but who that person is is determined by what he does. The life that the person lives determines who he is.
But i'm thinking now that I may have misunderstood you and we have been speaking at cross purposes. Happens all the time!Isa 1:18…..> you have come to see Jesus and God the Father are different beings and your right and being different beings they have different Wills and thats the Key the Will's If God the Father is to be in all, He must cause all Wills to conform to His Will. And the only way that can Happen He must be present in them by co-habiting as he was in Jesus. Jesus put His will to death even the death on the cross. Showing (COMPLETE) submission to the Father's WILL and because of that God the Father Has Highly exalted Him. That's how ONE TRUE GOD can be in ALL and THROUGH ALL.
Am glad you have come to see the difference between Jesus and the Father.'
love and Peace to you and your ………………gene
Is1:18- These scriptures sound like they refer to one Spirit of God with seperate persons. But which person is the the Father of Jesus? The Father or the Holy Spirit?
The Father is the Father of Yeshua, although the Holy Spirit was evidently used to facilitate the conception. Paradoxical? – Yes!
Greetings WJ…..I always find myself in a position where Iam forced to rethink once I have heard the argument for the existance of the trinity as presented in Catholic doctrine….After carefull examination one might come up with a faith based reason for believing……However that does not make it true and certainly not proven…..If you employ logic along with a childlike posture towards scripture you find that there is no argument for its existance…..Allow me to present it this way…..There is the Eternal and no other….In the beginning was God and the Word was God…And the word was made flesh and dwelt among US….The Eternal creates by his mere WORD and the essense of his power to create is his spirit…Does that make sense…It seems so simple and childish..what do you think ?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 18 2008,15:51) Define “being” for me Gene.
Isa 1:18………i know being carries a large variety of meanings, But to me it's a Soul with it's own separate and unique Will. As we are all beings existing with our own separate souls, personalities, and Wills. Thats how i view it anyway.peace to you……..gene
Hi Is 1.18,
We agree that Yahshua's origins differed from ours.
Did that difference preclude him from being an ordinary man?
If it did and he was some sort of superman can we still follow him?Acts 2
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 18 2008,17:30) Is1:18- These scriptures sound like they refer to one Spirit of God with seperate persons. But which person is the the Father of Jesus? The Father or the Holy Spirit?
Hi:That is a logical question since the Holy Spirit is supposedly a third person.
Quote Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. But the Holy Spirit is not a third person but God's personal presence with us in the role of the Father of our Lord and also our Father. God is a living person or soul whose throne is in heaven, but His personal presence with us by His Spirit is seen through the works that he has done and does. He said “Be ye Holy for I am Holy”.
Quote 1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1 Co. 2:10 above plainly states: “BUT GOD HAS REVEALED (THEM) UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT”.
Of Course, God is the Father of our Lord and is also our Father if we have been born again.
942767…… you have it right, God the Father is the Father of our lord and brother Jesus and also our Father if His spirit is in Us, there is no difference Between Jesus and Us, we are all one Family the Family of God the Father. ” wherefore He(Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brethren “.”as He is so are we”, “heirs and joint heirs”, with Christ Jesus.
blessings to you and yours…………..gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 18 2008,18:48) The Father is the Father of Yeshua, although the Holy Spirit was evidently used to facilitate the conception. Paradoxical? – Yes!
Hi Is 1.18,
So the Holy Spirit is the Father?
Of course. The Spirit of God is
the spirit of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2008,06:31) Hi Is 1.18,
We agree that Yahshua's origins differed from ours.
Did that difference preclude him from being an ordinary man?
If it did and he was some sort of superman can we still follow him?Acts 2
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Nick…..If you say He is different, it means He is not the same obviously. On the one hand you preexistences want to say, he was like us and then you say he was different then us , then He was not exactly like us, right?. But what does scripture say, He was like us in (every) way. And tell me this (WHY) would it behove him to be made like us in every way, what did he have to (gain) by that, seeing you believe he already was super preexisting being who was from the beginning and created everything, tell what would he have to gain by being one of Us then.Act 2:22, Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus (of)means from, Nazareth, (A MAN), approved of or by God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which (GOD DID) not Jesus, by or through Him in the midest of you, as ye yourselves also know.
Question did they know Jesus was a preexistence God or supper being ?, No, Did they think Jesus did the Miracles or signs or wonders himself ? NO. What they know was God did these things through a man and why, because a man exactly like US couldn't have possibly done those things himself. Jesus was a (MAN),
APPROVED BY GOD) .Acts 10:38…> how God (ANOINTED), who?, the (MAN) Jesus of Nazareth with the (HOLY SPIRIT) and with (POWER); who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; How?, (BECAUSE GOD WAS WITH HIM)
Anyone who separates Jesus from their (EXACT LIKENESS) Is in my opinion (NONE) of His, and does (NOT) have the MIND of Christ but are Antichrists, because they don't see God the Father brought into existence another First of a Kind Adam a purely Human being who had (NO) advantage other then God was with Him, and perfected Him and kept him from sinning.
The whole example was to show US what God the Father can do in Our Lives and it is exactly the same as He did in Jesus life.
Giving Jesus all these preexistent powers as an incarnate being, is pure Heresy.
IMO……gene
Nick…..I meant to add, this idea God or a super being came down as a Man theology, comes from the pagan Greek belief system of Man God's and is nothing more than part of the Athenian creed foster by pagan ideologies. Pure Hersey.
peace to you and yours……………gene
Hi GB,
It was necessary for the sacrificial lamb to be chosen from among the flock for whom he would die. He had to be undeniably a man. His unique origins as the monogenes Son are another matter but scripture is pure and has not been adulterated or adapted to suit a human doctrine.Well a lot of scholars would disagree with you on scriptures being adulterated or adapted to suite a Human doctrine, The whole Idea of trinity proves that. Whole sentences were added to the texts, and influencing done by upper and lower casing letters.To just mane a few. Scripture may not be as pure as you think Nick.
peace to you ……….gene
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