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Quote (942767 @ May 17 2008,12:59) Hi Bro. Isaiah:
Hi Brother SDN, I hope that you are well.Quote That is because the Word of God which is the spirit of the Son has come form God.
Yes, but came in what sense did He “come from” God? Did the pre-human Yeshua 'issue forth' from God, like some supernatural equivalent of a solar flare? Or was He perhaps simply sent? The term “came from” has more than one connotation, right? How do you understand it?Quote There is but one God, and there is only One only begotten Son but many sons of God.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.Quote The Father and Son are two distinct souls or individuals, but who that person is is determined by what he does. The life that the person lives determines who he is.
I can see you would be solidly on the nurture side of the nature/nurture argument. I agree in part. Although I think that at least some of our personality traits are preprogrammed. Otherwise we would not have any real personality diversity within siblings. But we do.Quote Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
“No wonder they “are spirit and are life” (pneuma estin kai zwh estin). The breath of God and the life of God is in these words of Jesus. Never man spoke like Jesus (John 7:46). There is life in his words today” (Word Pictures, A T Robertson)Quote Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Not sure how this verse fits with your comments above SDN. Maybe you could explain?Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,03:42) Quote (gollamudi @ May 16 2008,19:49) hey come on seek,
Don't misunderstand my words. We were all together in the same level of beliefs of triune God. That was an old story. I debated many times and many ways to prove trinity. Read the posts of Gene, Not3in1, Adam, Martian etc. See the spirit of understanding behind them. Have any others in this forum demonstrated such wisdom. One side you say God is one and otherside you say Jesus is also God and creator. Please come out from such confusing spirits. Try to understand things of God in the context of Jewish beliefs not as pagans like we do in India here.
Sorry if I hurt you. I suffered this ambiguity years together. I don't want anybody else to suffer this way. I thank God for giving me understanding about the simple truth of His existence and Characteristics.
Peace to you.
Adam
Hi Adam,I agree with what you are saying and was blessed by your explaination of “it” regarding the “Word”. Great explaination there, brother.
The frustration with preexistent believer's, such as “Mrs.” (who is also called “Irene”, and “Seek and you will find”), is that they hold onto ideas that are closely related to the trinity belief. It's hard to let go of all of these beliefs, I guess.
But Jesus cannot be born a man and have preexisted his birth in some divine fashion. You are correct to dismiss this thought. We were not re-born from spirit beings, for example. If Christ be as we are, then it only stands to reason that his beginning was our beginning…..at birth.
Now the scriptures teach that Jesus had a beginning that reached beyond our beginning. This begs the question, in what capacity did our Lord exist if he wasn't physically born yet? And I'm sorry to say that this question remains for the most part, unanswered. We can guess, but that's all that is.
Arguments for preexistence have not convinced me. The disciples, Paul and other's – including Jesus himself- did not expound on this preexistent state. We have received no lessons on this topic. It's up for grabs. I have my theories…
Take care and thanks for your kind words,
Mandy
MandyI find your words lacking.
Especially when you say…
Quote The frustration with preexistent believer's, such as “Mrs.” (who is also called “Irene”, and “Seek and you will find”), is that they hold onto ideas that are closely related to the trinity belief. It's hard to let go of all of these beliefs, I guess. This statement is a little condescending. Quite frankly it’s sickening to constantly hear condescending statements about Trinitarians with accusations that we are blind and hold onto a false belief.
No offense but I can't see how you can make these statements to Irene when it was not to long ago that you doubted Jesus is the Messiah.
It seems that the Unitarians are not very tolerant of anyone’s beliefs that do not totally line up with theirs.
I have seen this sort of pressure and accusations against t8 and Irene who believe in his preexistence, that they are lining up with Trinitarians.
You cannot prove the Unitarian view no more than I can prove the Trinitarian view, not based on the scriptures we have.
You and everyone else has a right to believe what you want and even debate it, but when there is talk about “all Trinitarians or those who believe in his preexistence are holding onto ideas that are false”, that is your opinion and should be stated as such without the attitude that they are deceived or blind.
For obviously you and others here have not made a convincing enough argument for your view to make us change our minds either.
This has happened to Mrs. more than once, not by you, but by others accusing her of being related to a Trinitarians belief because she doesn’t agree with them on his preexistence.
This is wrong. The constant slurs against Trinitarians and their beliefs are not of the Spirit of God, but come from the accuser of the brethren.
I have some news for all on this board, Trinitarians are sons of God also.
IMHO Keith
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,11:08) I guess the questions being begged then are – is it the Spirit where the individual's centre of consciousness exists, is it where their identity and personality comes from? Are spirits even unique to the individual, or is it universal to the kind or being. I personally don't have a problem accepting Yeshua and the Father shared the same Spirit. This is the natural and ONLY LOGICAL inference that could be taken from these verses: 1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.and;
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.and;
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.cf.
John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.and;
John 14:23
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.More than one identity indwells the believer, yet only one Spirit. So Yeshua and the Father sharing the same Spirit does not make them the same person. In my humble opinion the identity comes from the soul, not the Spirit. So I do not see this as any kind of refutation of trinitarianism.
Blessings
Hi Isaiah.Good to see you
Excellent points.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,15:44) I find your words lacking.
That's OK, bro, I understand.I haven't been as “into” debating lately as I have in months gone by. I don't even reach for my bible anymore. I'm sure my arguments are growing stale. I've heard the same arguments for the same scriptures so many times now that I have become bored with the debate. I just interject here and there now….. Sorry to disappoint you. I'll try to add more meaty posts in the future.
Love,
MandyWJ,
Wow – I just finished reading your post to me (I hadn't read the whole thing before I posted the above post).
You really let me have it, didn't you? Good grief. Are you OK tonight? Bad night?
You know me well enough by now that you must realize I wasn't being mean spirited by my comments. I do think that there are certain beliefs attached to the trinity doctrine that are hard for folks to let go of. In other words, someone can say they don't believe in the trinity anymore but still hold on to parts of that belief. That is all I was trying to say.
At any rate, you have taken me wrong and for that I am sorry.
Quote You cannot prove the Unitarian view no more than I can prove the Trinitarian view, not based on the scriptures we have. Brother, I completely agree. So let's just love one another and agree to disagree. We are going to see our view better than any other. We are going to wonder why the other side doesn't see our view as “clearly” as we see it. We will be condescending at times. It's human nature. But in the end we both know that regarding the trinity – it's up for grabs. Scripture is not clear. It's not our faults.
God Bless ya bro and thanks for pointing this out.
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,16:32) I don't even reach for my bible anymore.
That's a tragedy Mandy, seriously. I think you've bought into a lie. The translations aren't perfect, that's true, but that is not to say that the original autographs were not, and the essential truths have been preserved I believe. All scripture was and still is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,16:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,15:44) I find your words lacking.
That's OK, bro, I understand.I haven't been as “into” debating lately as I have in months gone by. I don't even reach for my bible anymore. I'm sure my arguments are growing stale. I've heard the same arguments for the same scriptures so many times now that I have become bored with the debate. I just interject here and there now….. Sorry to disappoint you. I'll try to add more meaty posts in the future.
Love,
Mandy
MandyIm sorry! I came across a little harsh. I oppologize.
Sometimes I get frustrated at the constant patronizing and condescending attitudes. Its annoying to say the least.
I know you are mostly gracious in your post.
Again, I am sorry, I should be able to take it and show grace in my respose also.
I do love you Sis!
Keith.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,16:40) WJ, Wow – I just finished reading your post to me (I hadn't read the whole thing before I posted the above post).
You really let me have it, didn't you? Good grief. Are you OK tonight? Bad night?
You know me well enough by now that you must realize I wasn't being mean spirited by my comments. I do think that there are certain beliefs attached to the trinity doctrine that are hard for folks to let go of (and this is the important part) who have decided they don't believe in the trinity. In other words, someone can say they don't believe in the trinity anymore but still hold on to parts of that belief. That is all I was trying to say.
At any rate, you have taken me wrong and for that I am sorry.
Quote You cannot prove the Unitarian view no more than I can prove the Trinitarian view, not based on the scriptures we have. Brother, I completely agree. So let's just love one another and agree to disagree. We are going to see our view better than any other. We are going to wonder why the other side doesn't see our view as “clearly” as we see it. We will be condescending at times. It's human nature. But in the end we both know that regarding the trinity – it's up for grabs. Scripture is not clear. It's not our faults.
God Bless ya bro and thanks for pointing this out.
Mandy
I try not to get involved in these kinds of discussions but in this case I think I should say something. I think WJ DID understand you correctly, but thought the assumption you made was, well, arrogant. You do not default to a higher theological plateau by rejecting the trinity as a doctrine Mandy. But you've inferred that our doctrines are inferior. On what grounds? Keith has already made it plain that you can neither prove nor disprove the doctrine from scripture. It's just a conclusion drawn from the biblical data. This is true of a lot orthodox and unorthodox theology. Not picking on you here, just wanted to elucidate the issue.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,16:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,16:32) I don't even reach for my bible anymore.
That's a tragedy Mandy, seriously. I think you've bought into a lie. The translations aren't perfect, that's true, but that is not to say that the original autographs were not, and the essential truths have been preserved I believe. All scripture was and still is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Sometimes I really think it's tragic, too.I was so happy before in my state of un-knowing. But now that I have studied certain things out I can see the problems. I can't ignore them. They are there, like an elephant in the middle of the room.
I've listened to other's try to explain the problems away, but they just sound like excuses. Some are more eloquent excuses, but excuses nonetheless.
Like Keith has said tonight – we cannot prove our case either way with the scriptures we have. What use is it, then? God must have planned it this way.
At any rate, it's hard to have faith in something (the bible) when there are so many loopholes and nothing concrete enough for the masses to agree upon, and stand on all at the same time.
Good to hear from you Paul,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:02) Paul,
I'm too tired to be arrogant.
You don't know me very well.
You've been away too long.Mandy
I didn't say I thought you were arrogant. I don't think this at all. I meant the comments you make regarding the trinity were likely construed that way by WJ. I'm tired too so I'm going to leave it there.Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,17:05) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:02) Paul,
I'm too tired to be arrogant.
You don't know me very well.
You've been away too long.Mandy
I didn't say I thought you were arrogant. I don't think this at all. I meant the comments you make regarding the trinity were likely construed that way by Keith.
True!But, Mandy has been on a roller coaster for sometime. She is trying very hard to be sincere and open and I do respect her for that.
I pray someday we will all come to the Unity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of God.
I also believe this will happen.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 17 2008,17:09) I pray someday we will all come to the Unity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of God.
Amen.And thanks for the grace, brother.
Love ya,
MandyQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,16:51) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,16:40) WJ, Wow – I just finished reading your post to me (I hadn't read the whole thing before I posted the above post).
You really let me have it, didn't you? Good grief. Are you OK tonight? Bad night?
You know me well enough by now that you must realize I wasn't being mean spirited by my comments. I do think that there are certain beliefs attached to the trinity doctrine that are hard for folks to let go of (and this is the important part) who have decided they don't believe in the trinity. In other words, someone can say they don't believe in the trinity anymore but still hold on to parts of that belief. That is all I was trying to say.
At any rate, you have taken me wrong and for that I am sorry.
Quote You cannot prove the Unitarian view no more than I can prove the Trinitarian view, not based on the scriptures we have. Brother, I completely agree. So let's just love one another and agree to disagree. We are going to see our view better than any other. We are going to wonder why the other side doesn't see our view as “clearly” as we see it. We will be condescending at times. It's human nature. But in the end we both know that regarding the trinity – it's up for grabs. Scripture is not clear. It's not our faults.
God Bless ya bro and thanks for pointing this out.
Mandy
I try not to get involved in these kinds of discussions but in this case I think I should say something. I think WJ DID understand you correctly, but thought the assumption you made was, well, arrogant. You do not default to a higher theological plateau by rejecting the trinity as a doctrine Mandy. But you've inferred that our doctrines are inferior. On what grounds? Keith has already made it plain that you can neither prove nor disprove the doctrine from scripture. It's just a conclusion drawn from the biblical data. This is true of a lot orthodox and unorthodox theology. Not picking on you here, just wanted to elucidate the issue.
Is 1:18I think you also hit the nail on the head in this post when you said…
Quote You do not default to a higher theological plateau by rejecting the trinity as a doctrine Mandy. But you've inferred that our doctrines are inferior. On what grounds? Keith has already made it plain that you can neither prove nor disprove the doctrine from scripture. It's just a conclusion drawn from the biblical data. This is true of a lot orthodox and unorthodox theology. Not picking on you here, just wanted to elucidate the issue. Blessings Bro!
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:01) Sometimes I really think it's tragic, too. I was so happy before in my state of un-knowing. But now that I have studied certain things out I can see the problems. I can't ignore them. They are there, like an elephant in the middle of the room.
And yet others have also looked into the issue of the legitimacy of the scriptures (with an open mind) but concluded that we should put our trust in them. Lot's of people like that around Mandy.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,17:14) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:01) Sometimes I really think it's tragic, too. I was so happy before in my state of un-knowing. But now that I have studied certain things out I can see the problems. I can't ignore them. They are there, like an elephant in the middle of the room.
And yet others have also looked into the issue of the legitimacy of the scriptures (with an open mind) but concluded that we should put our trust in them. Lot's of people like that around Mandy.
Sure.But I don't happen to be presently one of them.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,16:51) But you've inferred that our doctrines are inferior.
You guys read too much into what I said.I said that folks who have decided they don't believe in the trinity have a hard time letting go of certain aspects of that doctrine. That is all I meant. Not that the doctrine was inferior or anything of the sort. Of course as you both know, I do not believe in the doctrine myself. So naturally I am of the thought that it is not the best teaching.
This is what I have found out for myself.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2008,17:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 17 2008,16:51) But you've inferred that our doctrines are inferior.
You guys read too much into what I said.I said that folks who have decided they don't believe in the trinity have a hard time letting go of certain aspects of that doctrine. That is all I meant. Not that the doctrine was inferior or anything of the sort. Of course as you both know, I do not believe in the doctrine myself. So naturally I am of the thought that it is not the best teaching.
This is what I have found out for myself.
MandyFair enough.
Mandy…….> the doctrine of the trinity is inferior and has nothing to do with the truth of God. Anyone who has the truth of God in them can easily see the deception of the trinity doctrine. Everyone who has God's spirit will not follow these false teachings.
Mandy don't let these deceivers intimidate you . They have no idea of what there affirming.
peace and love to you and your……..gene
Hi Bro. Isaiah:
I am doing well brother, and I hope that you and your family are doing well also. Do you have another child on the way?
Relative to the following:
Quote That is because the Word of God which is the spirit of the Son has come from God. Yes, but came in what sense did He “come from” God? Did the pre-human Yeshua 'issue forth' from God, like some supernatural equivalent of a solar flare? Or was He perhaps simply sent? The term “came from” has more than one connotation, right? How do you understand it?
We know that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost. Jesus was born a living soul under the law of Moses raised by parents who were under that Law, but I am not talking about the body. I am talking about the spirit. The body is the Holy Temple of God when God dwells within us, Jesus included, by His Spirit as our helper or conselor, and through obedience to His Word.
First, the Ten Commandments came from God, and Jesus under the Law studied the OT, and we see him at the age of 12 in the temple discussing the scriptures with the doctors of the Law (Luke 2:46).
Jesus was born into the world, but he was not “sent into the world” until he was ordained for his minstry, and he received the Holy Ghost at that time. What he learned while under the law and what God taught him from within he taught and he applied to his daily life. The Word of God becomes a part of your spirit as you apply it to your life. This is the spirit of the Son and is the spirit that is being formed in the sons of God as we learn to apply His Word to our daily lives.
And so, when Jesus is states:
Quote Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. He is clearing up a misunderstanding relative to his teaching about eating his flesh and drinking his blood.
Quote Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.And so, what he is teaching is that they and we should apply what he is teaching in this flesh body to our daily lives. It is the bread from heaven that has come from God through humanity that both he and we should have eternal life. Of course, his blood is the propitation for our sins, but he obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.
When I make reference to the following scripture:
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.I do so because Jesus does these works in obedience to the Word of God that God his Father has taught him. It is through this spirit that God's character is made manifest to humanity.
And so, we are not talking about “God in three persons”, but we are talking about “One God” dwelling within “one body” by His Spirit as we are subjected to Him through obedience to His Word.
You say:
Quote I can see you would be solidly on the nurture side of the nature/nurture argument. I agree in part. Although I think that at least some of our personality traits are preprogrammed. Otherwise we would not have any real personality diversity within siblings. But we do. Please explain what you mean by the following. I am not sure I am understanding you here.
Quote Although I think that at least some of our personality traits are preprogrammed
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