How is Jesus not God?

[gollamudi]

Amen brother Gene, in all things there is a purpose of God , that's why Jesus was predestained before the foundations of the world in the plan of God.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 27 2008,18:16)

Amen brother Gene, in all things there is a purpose of God , that's why Jesus was predestained before the foundations of the world in the plan of God.

I just tickle at you following your master

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,17:53)

But men deceive themselves by this idea of a “FREE WILL” , so they don't see it was all planned and foreknown before it ever happened.

Bro Gene,

With all due respect, what a boring world this would be to manage and observe if God already knew everything that would happen.

The exciting thing about watching my children is that I have trained them, but I have no idea what they will choose for their lives. The possibilities are endless and amazing, I look forward to knowing what college they will choose, which mate, which house, which religion, how many children to have and so on……. If I already knew all of this information I would have nothing to look forward to.

Further, if I already knew that one of my children would become a child-rapist, how deep and sorrowful would my heart be, even now, as they are bringing me joy in their younger years. It just doesn't make sense.

Remember those who couldn't follow Christ when he said, “Take eat my body broken for you….”, they couldn't accept this teaching and left the Master.

It was their choice to make.

Love,
Mandy

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,01:03)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,17:53) But men deceive themselves by this idea of a “FREE WILL” , so they don't see it was all planned and foreknown before it ever happened. Bro Gene, With all due respect, what a boring world this would be to manage and observe if God already knew everything that would happen. The exciting thing about watching my children is that I have trained them, but I have no idea what they will choose for their lives. The possibilities are endless and amazing, I look forward to knowing what college they will choose, which mate, which house, which religion, how many children to have and so on……. If I already knew all of this information I would have nothing to look forward to. Further, if I already knew that one of my children would become a child-rapist, how deep and sorrowful would my heart be, even now, as they are bringing me joy in their younger years. It just doesn't make sense. Remember those who couldn't follow Christ when he said, “Take eat my body broken for you….”, they couldn't accept this teaching and left the Master. It was their choice to make. Love, Mandy

Mandy…..I would say to, yes but your not God, your knowledge is limited His is Not. If you could only see that this whole creation is fore planned, why would God have put us into these weak and temporal in the first place, if not to experience the results of Good and Evil and suffer the pains and sorrows of this temporal state of life. To see it any other way would make God a Monster to allow such evil to continue when it's within his power to prevent it. So there has to be a good reason for the fleshly state of man kind. Do you know where it say God Knows the end from the beginning. He know Adam would fall and even planned it to happen creating the mind and body and environment for the fall. If you see that life consists of good and evil and wisdom is the understanding of these two opposites.

God said He frames evil another words he set it's limits for ever one, the only reason a person doesn't become say a child-rapist is because of the grace of God. You have heard of the term , except for the grace of God there go I, this is a true saying. Most people don't realize there is (Nothing) new under the sun, Good and Evil always existed and will always exist they define what life is and it vital God children experience them both. Remember God did not say Man has become like us, until He eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

As for those who couldn't follow Christ it simply was not given to them to follow Him, But the ones who it was given to did follow Him. Jesus plainly said that when he said the things of the Kingdom was not given to them to understand but unto the disciples it was given.

You say it was their choice and that would be right if they Had (FREE WILL) but i believe there is no such thing of free wills all wills are the result of cause and effect, if you were raised and taught in the exact way a criminal was you would do the exact same thing, Ask yourself why would God forgive all if he didn't take responsibility for it. God the Father wanted all of us to experience good and Evil. And all choice is driven by whats in a person before He every made the choice and that is what caused him or Her to make that choice.

Love to you and yours………gene

[gollamudi]

Hi Mandy,
God is the potter and we are the clay. What I will be it will be in the hand of the potter. What is in His mind only will come to real. He is having the full control on our lives. Also the potter knows everything before he makes any pot or vessel how it looks like. It is the way this creation is. You can not question the maker “why you have made me like this?. See Paul's words in Rom 9:10-24

10 “And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac —
11 before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue,
12 not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15 For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16 So it depends not upon a person's will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,”Why have you created me so?”
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles”

See the strong words of Paul here, God is not a man to think in our way.,In his presence we are nothing that's why Job says ” I am nothing and only dust before you” We should realise our insignificance before such a great God and we should commit our selves to His sovereign will then only we will be safe in His hands if we think we can use our free wills we will be a miserable failure. See the example of Jesus he never used his free will but the only will of his Father in every thing he did for our salvation. Think about a train that runs on two parallel rails, if it thinks I am not having freedom let me go away from this restricted movement what will happen 'the collapse'. There is safety in God's predesigned path and to know His will day to day through the Holy Spirit for us as mentioned in Eph 2:8-11.
Love to you
Adam

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,01:03)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,17:53) But men deceive themselves by this idea of a “FREE WILL” , so they don't see it was all planned and foreknown before it ever happened. Bro Gene, With all due respect, what a boring world this would be to manage and observe if God already knew everything that would happen. The exciting thing about watching my children is that I have trained them, but I have no idea what they will choose for their lives.  The possibilities are endless and amazing, I look forward to knowing what college they will choose, which mate, which house, which religion, how many children to have and so on…….  If I already knew all of this information I would have nothing to look forward to. Further, if I already knew that one of my children would become a child-rapist, how deep and sorrowful would my heart be, even now, as they are bringing me joy in their younger years.  It just doesn't make sense. Remember those who couldn't follow Christ when he said, “Take eat my body broken for you….”, they couldn't accept this teaching and left the Master.   It was their choice to make. Love, Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 28 2008,04:18)

Also the potter knows everything before he makes any pot or vessel how it looks like.

Hi Adam,

Have you ever thrown clay? I can tell you that you may have an idea of what you want your pot to look like, but the clay, to some degree, has a mind of it's own

You're original idea for the pot may come close, but it will never be exact. Art is that way, kinda like us humans….it's never perfect.

[gollamudi]

I know Mandy,
I have some friends in my village in my home state. I used go to their home and watch their father how he used to make so many varieties of vessels with that soft and sticky clay. I never felt that clay has any mind of its own. I only observed that the quality of mud or clay and how the potter mixes it with water the other material like powder of burnt hay,some colours etc.
Oh! I went to my flash back of school days in 1980's.
Thanks
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi Gene,

Quote

As for those who couldn't follow Christ it simply was not given to them to follow Him,

I read through John 6 and it does seem to imply that the reason these disciples turned away from Jesus was because, verse 65, “…..This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” Verse 66, “From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.”

Hmmmm

Why wouldn't God enable those other disciples to follow Jesus? Turning back was to their peril. This doesn't make sense if it is God's choice and not theirs. Would God choose destruction for some and not other's. And that, even not at their own choice to be destroyed?

Quote

Jesus plainly said that when he said the things of the Kingdom was not given to them to understand but unto the disciples it was given.

The passage you are referring to is in Matthew, chapter 13. The knowledge of heaven was given to the disciples but not to other's. The reason was that the other's hearts had become calloused (vs. 15). Did God cause their hearts to be calloused? If this is so, can anyone be held accountable for their sin at all?

[gollamudi]

Hi Mandy, my God I have forgotten about your throwing of clay by the potter. I know it is so much horrifying to watch, my friend's dad used to throw the mud or clay with so much strength and from so much height that he can. If the clay has any mind of its own I know it will be quite horrifying experience. I don't know whether our maker also throws us in the same way that we may be moulded into a vessel of better honour though it may so much painful some times.
thanks for your thought provoking  ideas.
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 28 2008,05:06)

Hi Mandy, my God I have forgotten about your throwing of clay by the potter. I know it is so much horrifying to watch, my friend dad used to throw the mud or clay with so much strength and from so much height that he can. If the clay has any mind of its own I know it will be quite horrifying experience. I don't know whether our maker also throws us in the same way that we may be moulded into a vessel of better honour though it may so much painful some times. thanks for your thought provoking  ideas. Adam

No problem, Adam. I'm glad to talk with you and exchange ideas. So many are preaching here that it is hard to learn from them.

Maybe I am not a great potter at all and that is why my pieces seem to be less than perfect. Although every artist I have come accross has said there is no perfection in clay molding. You start with an idea and then go with the flow.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,04:58)

Hi Gene, Quote As for those who couldn't follow Christ it simply was not given to them to follow Him, I read through John 6 and it does seem to imply that the reason these disciples turned away from Jesus was because, verse 65, “…..This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”  Verse 66, “From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.” Hmmmm Why wouldn't God enable those other disciples to follow Jesus?  Turning back was to their peril.  This doesn't make sense if it is God's choice and not theirs.  Would God choose destruction for some and not other's.  And that, even not at their own choice to be destroyed? Quote Jesus plainly said that when he said the things of the Kingdom was not given to them to understand but unto the disciples it was given. The passage you are referring to is in Matthew, chapter 13.  The knowledge of heaven was given to the disciples but not to other's.  The reason was that the other's hearts had become calloused (vs. 15).  Did God cause their hearts to be calloused?  If this is so, can anyone be held accountable for their sin at all?

Hi Mandy

I agree.

I think this idea of no free will is a lie from hell and is just a license to sin.

After all, like you said if men can not freely choose to follow him or not, then how can they be judged for rejecting him or for their sin?

Scriptures say no man can come to the Father unless the Father draw him.

But we know that scriptures also say if Yeshua was lifted up he would draw all men to him.

So the Father and the Son and the Spirit draws all men but not all will come, and this is obvious.

Jesus said, “whosoever *will* let him come and drink”.

Blessings WJ  

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ….it's evident by your words you don't believe in God being the Potter and we the clay then, or that God gives men repentance, or God creates to Good works, or No man can come unto me unless the father (DRAG) him, nor He who began a work in you will see it unto completion, Nor the calling of God is without revocation, nor God works in us both to will,and do of His good pleasure, nor that God is not willing that non parish, and God does all things after the councle of his own will, nor where he says (I) will take out of you the stony heart and give you a heart of Flesh, Nor where God said he has concluded all under sin that He might have mercy on all. Nor where is says as in Adam all died and in Christ ALL shall be made alive.

Your God is just to weak to do that right, unless we give him permission. By our so-called FREE WILLS, even though no where in the bible is (free wills) mentioned. But this is mentioned , thy kingdom come (THY WILL) be done, do you see anyone else's WILL being mentioned Here, This is a typical apostate Christian view point, one where man is the captain of his own destiny. That view point refuse to see the absolute Sovereignty of the ONLY TRUE GOD.

IMO………gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,07:59)

But this is mentioned , thy kingdom come (THY WILL) be done

You know this might be funny, but I always considered this part of the prayer that Jesus led to be what he hoped for.  In other words, he knew his Father's will was done in heaven and he wanted it to also be done on earth.  You pray for what you don't have, usually.

It was obvious that God's will wasn't necessarily being carried out on earth. Not in those days and certainly not in these days.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,07:59)

WJ….it's evident by your words you don't believe in God being the Potter and we the clay then, or that God gives men repentance, or God creates to Good works, or No man can come unto me unless the father (DRAG) him, nor He who began a work in you will see it unto completion, Nor the calling of God is without revocation, nor God works in us both to will,and do of His good pleasure, nor that God is not willing that non parish, and God does all things after the councle of his own will,  nor where he says (I) will take out of you the stony heart and give you a heart of Flesh, Nor where God said he has concluded all under sin that He might have mercy on all. Nor where is says as in Adam all died and in Christ ALL shall be made alive. Your God is just to weak to do that right, unless we give him permission. By our so-called FREE WILLS, even though no where in the bible is (free wills) mentioned. But this is mentioned , thy kingdom come (THY WILL) be done, do you see anyone else's WILL being mentioned Here,  This is a typical apostate Christian view point, one where man is the captain of his own destiny. That view point refuse to see the absolute Sovereignty  of the ONLY TRUE GOD. IMO………gene

GB

I could easily prove with scriptures your concept is wrong and unscriptural.

We are “co-labourers” together with God.

A co-labourer means just that.

We work together with God as we allow his Spirit to have his way in us.

The Father being a potter simply means he is all powerful over his creation, but he has also given men the will to repent or not to. This is the very foundation of the Gospel.

“Whosoever will”, let him come.

If what you say is true than how can there be a judgment seat where every man will give account for every Idle word that he spoke.

It is pure foolishness to think that God would judge men for something they cannot help or had no power over.

As I said it is a lie from the pit of hell and only gives men a license to sin, for after all what difference does it make what we do if I have no power to act on my own will? Yeshua had a will and he chose not to do his own will, but the Fathers.

Submit (hupotasso) yourselves therefore to God. Resist (anthistemi) the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh (eggizo) to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded (dipsuchos). James 4:7,8

A close look at these two scriptures alone destroys your belief that we have no free will. Look at these words and you will see there is an “act of my own will” here.

Submit, “hupotasso”

1) to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject

Resist, “anthistemi”

1) to set one's self against, to withstand, resist, oppose

2) to set against

Draw Nigh, “eggizo”

1) to bring near, to join one thing to another

2) to draw or come near to, to approach

Double Minded, “dipsuchos”

1) double minded

a) wavering, uncertain, doubting

b) divided in interest

The words…

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2008,08:37)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2008,07:59) But this is mentioned , thy kingdom come (THY WILL) be done You know this might be funny, but I always considered this part of the prayer that Jesus led to be what he hoped for.  In other words, he knew his Father's will was done in heaven and he wanted it to also be done on earth.  You pray for what you don't have, usually. It was obvious that God's will wasn't necessarily being carried out on earth.  Not in those days and certainly not in these days.

Hi Mandy,
You are right, our adversary(Satan) wants us to follow our so called free wills and negate the only sovereign will of our Father in heaven to fulfill it on earth as it is in heaven. You see in heaven there are no free wills only one supreme will that is being followed by heavenly hosts unlike we who under the bondage of sin. But now we are set free by the blood of Jesus we are no longer under this bondage to follow our free will. Please think over and refer my earlier posts.
Love to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
I agree in part.
But it is us who must allow ourselves to be led by the gentle breeze of the Spirit.

Gal5
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

[gollamudi]

Amen brother,
Again no free will because we are led by the Spirit of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Did God only TAKE HUMAN FORM while remaining God?
But Jesus, whom I think you are referring to, said we should pray to GOD IN HEAVEN?[Mt6]
If he was our God why would he say that ?

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……. The Carnal mind (the one we are born with) IS a enemy of God (Not ) subject to the laws of God Neither (CAN) be. But some would not have you believe that, they by their own so-called (FREE WILL) are able to choose the right way on their own.

Even though Jesus Showed that we need to put our (WILLS) to death Like He Did. Whosoever shall save HIS life will loose it and he who will lose His Life shall save it. Your Will is what controls your life, that why it says For God works in us both to will and do (HIS) good Pleasure. Only the arrogant think they by their so called Free Wills they control their Own destines. You will not find the word FREE WILL anywhere in scriptures.

The whole idea of free will displaces, God the Father as Sovereign Creator of all things. And substitutes Man as His own God. Its one of the biggest lies ever put forth by the Apostasies Churches of our day.

Ask yourself how could the kingdom of God come and all these separate (wills) be Done. It would be pure chaos to say the lest. NO only ONE WILL will be Done in GOD'S kingdom.

The scripture says ” it is written in the volume of the book concerning me I come to do
(THY WILL) “O” God.. And again Jesus said, never the less (NOT) my WILL but (THY) Will be done. So Jesus' will was against the will of God wasn't it but what did he do to that will (He put it death). So don't give me this So Called FREE WILL BULL. Looked like he know something about WILLS these modern Apostatized Churches Don't. If you understood that, there is,was, and always will be only One WILL that will be done, and the only way that can be done is for all other separate will to cease to exist.

The proud Hate that idea of giving up there so called Free Wills which really are cause and effect Wills and not Free At all they just presume them to be , but in fact they are held prisoners of those so-called free wills, there is nothing free about them.

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