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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,07:55) Hi,
Jn8.58
AM
Number 1510
Transliteration:
eimi {i-mee'}
Word Origin:
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
TDNT:
2:398,206
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
I am 1473 74, am 55, it is I 1473 6, be 2, I was 1473 1, have been 1, not tr 7Total: 146
Definition:
to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Hi Nick,
that is correct. But you conveniently left out the word just before I am.You chose to disregard the word ginomai, which means to come into being, or to be coming.
Tim
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2008,08:20) Quote (942767 @ May 27 2008,10:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2008,03:17) Here is an excellent exegesis on Hebrews 1:10. Blessings
Hi Bro. WJ:There is alot of assumption in the exegesis:
For example brother Isaiah states:
Quote Psalm 102:25 is a verse quite obviously written about YHWH, but according to the Hebrews’ writer it was, in reality, an utterance spoken by the Father to the Son “According to the Hebrews' writer it was, IN REALITY, and utterance spoken by the Father to the Son”?
Maybe you can explain. Thanks.
God Bless
94Heb 1:10 is a quote of Pss 102:25.
I believe what Is 1:18 is saying is that the writer of Hebrews inspired by the Holy Spirit is given revelation of the scripture Pss 102:25 which is about YHWH and elevates the scripture to meaning that Pss 102:25 is actually the Father speaking to Yeshua. In other words like in other places in the OT Yeshua is referred to as YHWH.
Here is a sight that may help.
Hi WJ:Well I disagree that Jesus existed in the OT or that he was ever called YHWH.
The quotes Hebrews 1:8, 1,9 (Psalm 45) and 1:10(Psalm 102) are quoted from the Septuagint but the Hebrew reads a little differently. The quotes from the book of Hebrews as we read 1:8 and 1:9 state:
Quote Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.In the OT from the Hebrew this reads:
Quote 7 Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
8 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; {N}
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Some versions state “thy devine throne”… NLT has a footnote to this effect.
I believe that this Psalm definetly refers to Jesus, but I would be more apt to believe that the Hebrew is correct.
In the book of Hebrews as we have it Hebrew 1:10 states:
Quote Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;In the OT according to the Hebrew Psalm 102 states:
Quote 25 I say: 'O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days, Thou whose years endure throughout all generations.
26 Of old Thou didst lay the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.
27 They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure; {N}
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt Thou change them, and they shall pass away;
28 But Thou art the selfsame, and Thy years shall have no end.This quote is considerably different than what we have in the book of Hebrews.
I did look at the site to which you referred me, but no, I can't accept what is being said there.
God Bless
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 25 2008,16:42) Hi 94 Quote “What I am indicating by this is that angels apparently are made in the image of God. In Job 38 they are called sons of God. And so, if they, the angels are in the image of God, God could be speaking to them when he says “Let 'us' make man in 'our' image.” Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? Still doesn't say they are made in the image of God. Where are you getting that? The Bible does say that angels are ministering spirits.
Hi gsilva72:No, it doesn't say that they are in God's image specifically. I was basing my statement on the fact the He calls them “sons of God”.
Quote (TimothyVI @ May 31 2008,10:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,07:55) Hi,
Jn8.58
AM
Number 1510
Transliteration:
eimi {i-mee'}
Word Origin:
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
TDNT:
2:398,206
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
I am 1473 74, am 55, it is I 1473 6, be 2, I was 1473 1, have been 1, not tr 7Total: 146
Definition:
to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Hi Nick,
that is correct. But you conveniently left out the word just before I am.You chose to disregard the word ginomai, which means to come into being, or to be coming.
Tim
Hi Tim4,
Jn8“58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was[ginomai], I am.
Number 1096
Transliteration:
ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
Word Origin:
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
TDNT:
1:681,117
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid 3361 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not tr 14, misc 4, vr done 2Total: 630
So this does not relate to Jesus saying
I AM
does it?Quote (TimothyVI @ May 31 2008,00:23) Quote (t8 @ May 30 2008,18:46) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2008,02:57) To All……..yhwh simply means (HE EXISTS) and if you Add Eloyhim (POWERS) or as we say LORD GOD, it means, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) This is the Most High God, and the (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD) and (DEITY), Through which all things EXIST, and receive their EXISTENCE, both in heaven and in earth. One God and there is one mediator between Him and us, the (MAN) Jesus Christ. Not the LORD GOD Jesus, but the (MAN) Jesus. (Through) whom God Spoke. If we all can come to understand that alone, it will solve a lot of confusion caused by these lying trinitarians.
IMO……….gene
Jesus said, before Abraham he existed. He said “Before Abraham, I am”.Jesus said it. Not me.
Hi T8
Jesus actually said “before Abraham I am to come into being.”
That is from the Greek interlineary word for word translation.
It sounds more to me like, even before Abraham it was planned for Jesus to come into being.Tim
Yes, and that is why Jesus said:Quote Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad Hi 94,
Day is only an aspect of worldly creation.
The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation.
Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,10:45) Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,09:06) Hi WJ: Just an answer to the below statement of your post will answer it all:
You say:
Quote In each one of the above scriptures Yeshua could have said “My Fathers word”, but in fact Jesus takes claim to the scriptures… You have already indicated that Jesus does not speak of his own initiative.
Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worldsThis scripture states that God has spoken to humanity through him.
Jesus also said in addition to the scriptures that you have quoted about the word being his own:
Quote John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his loveSo then, although the commandments have come from God through him, they are also his in that he taught them and obeyed them without sin even unto death on the cross.
God Bless
Hi 94IMO, Not good enough.
If God gives you his commandments and you keep them and teach others to do so, can you say…
“These are my commandments, if you continue in my words then are you my disciples indeed?”
Can any man take claim to the words Yeshua speaks as his own words?
Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,11:28) Hi WJ: I believe one can say this if one, as Jesus did on many occasions, makes it clear that the commandments that he is teaching are coming from God.
Really? How many occasions are you talking about where Jesus makes it clear that his commandments were not his? The commandments he gave were coming from God because he was and is God!
If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jn 14:15
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jn 14:21
Again, the Father says nothing unless the Son says it, and the Son says nothing unless the Father says it. Yeshua’ words are the words of God because he is God.
When you share Gods word with someone “do you say these are my commandments”?
No you will probably say “thus saith the Lord” or “ the Lord said” or “the Word of God says” or “the scriptures say” Etc., Etc.
Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,11:28)
He did not teach his own thoughts.Was he a puppet on a string, or just an empty shell? Were his thoughts ever outside of Gods thoughts?
Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,11:28)
Failure to understand this is why IMHO that you teach the “tinity” doctrine to avoid teaching polytheism.I am surprised that you would make this judgment toward me 94. Why would I be avoiding teaching Polytheism when I have plainly taught that Polytheism and Henotheism is not scriptural? Yeshua came to me 34 years ago and changed my life, delivering me from the world flesh and the devil. When I received him into my life that day, my spirit was made free and I without “Trinitarian” teaching, began to praise him and extol him and thank him and worship him as his glory filled my life. I knew he was my Lord and My God. Then Yeshua began teaching me of my Father and the Holy Spirit and many other things.
The Jesus I accepted 34 years ago has not changed, however I have. Satan has tried to dethrone Yeshua out of my life many times, but I will always praise him and Love him for saving me that day, and will never forget who he was to me that day and who he is to me now. Imagine that, that in the throne, the center and focus of my life would be just a mere man and not God?
Not!!!Quote (942767 @ May 31 2008,11:28)
There is only “One God” and we the church beginning with the head are subjected to God through His Word.Well this thread is about pre-existence, and I got off the subject.
God Bless
Yes there is only “One God”, now you just have to reconcile the scriptures that say Yeshua is God.
Blessings!
Hi WJ,
Jesus told us in Jn8 that the Father was God.
So Jesus speaks words that are not his but the Father's.
Somehow you add these things to say that Jesus is our God?Your desperate defence of folly leads down some interesting alleys.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,17:45) Hi WJ,
Jesus told us in Jn8 that the Father was God.
So Jesus speaks words that are not his but the Father's.
Somehow you add these things to say that Jesus is our God?Your desperate defence of folly leads down some interesting alleys.
NHSo Yeshua was a liar when he said they were “His commandments”?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,17:42) Imagine that, that in the throne, the center and focus of my life would be just a mere man and not God? Not!!!
Brother,
Jesus came to point us to his Father. He wanted us to know that his Father is our Father, too. He told us that there would be a day when we wouldn't need to ask (Jesus) anything, that we could ask the Father ourselves….because the Father loves us.Jesus spent his whole life pointing everyone to the Father. I personally think that he would be disappointed to find that the children have decided to praise him (Jesus) as God, instead of the God that Jesus tried to point us to.
Jesus said:
John 14:1
…..Trust in God; trust also in me.
I respect your testimony and what you have believed you are convinced of. Who's to say? I only know what I feel God has shown me. I believe we are all responsible to follow what God has shown us. Therefore I pray for you as you pray for me. I think we are both pleasing God.
Love,
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,17:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,17:45) Hi WJ,
Jesus told us in Jn8 that the Father was God.
So Jesus speaks words that are not his but the Father's.
Somehow you add these things to say that Jesus is our God?Your desperate defence of folly leads down some interesting alleys.
NHSo Yeshua was a liar when he said they were “His commandments”?
Hi WJ,
Did you not know Jesus had commandments?
A mouthpiece for God.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,17:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,17:42) Imagine that, that in the throne, the center and focus of my life would be just a mere man and not God? Not!!!
Brother,
Jesus came to point us to his Father. He wanted us to know that his Father is our Father, too. He told us that there would be a day when we wouldn't need to ask (Jesus) anything, that we could ask the Father ourselves….because the Father loves us.Jesus spent his whole life pointing everyone to the Father. I personally think that he would be disappointed to find that the children have decided to praise him (Jesus) as God, instead of the God that Jesus tried to point us to.
Jesus said:
John 14:1
…..Trust in God; trust also in me.
I respect your testimony and what you have believed you are convinced of. Who's to say? I only know what I feel God has shown me. I believe we are all responsible to follow what God has shown us. Therefore I pray for you as you pray for me. I think we are both pleasing God.
Love,
Mandy
not3Respectfully scriptures teach us that Yeshua is our Prize, our goal, our husband, the author and the finisher of our faith, our Great Shephard, our mighty God, our Prince of peace, our Lord of Lords and King of Kings, our beginning and our end, our Rock, our salvation, our anchor, our light, our way, our truth, our life, our wisdom. our strength, our Lamb, our comforter, and I could go on.
Notice everything that Yeshua is to us was what the Father was to the Hebrews. It dosnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Yeshua said…
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other… Luke 16:13
To have the Son is to have the Father. To honour the Son even as we honour the Father pleases the Father.
Yeshua is everything to us that the Father is.
To imagine Yeshua as less than God is to have a distorted view of the “image of the invisible God”.
Yeshua is the express image of all that the Father is both in nature and in attributes.
There is no coming to the Father apart from Yeshua, for they are one in every sense.
Blessings!
Hey bro,
Quote Notice everything that Yeshua is to us was what the Father was to the Hebrews. It dosnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
You say it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, but you are perhaps putting things together that Jesus never intended?Quote No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other… Luke 16:13 To have the Son is to have the Father. To honour the Son even as we honour the Father pleases the Father.
I agree. But we have one Teacher who is our Lord, and we have one God who is our Father.Quote Yeshua is everything to us that the Father is.
If this is true, then why did God see fit that we needed a Mediator?Quote There is no coming to the Father apart from Yeshua, for they are one in every sense.
I agree with the first part of the sentence. However they are one as we are one. We cannot be one with God in “every sense”, neither could the disciples. So that oneness must be explained other than the trinity idea, imo.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,18:29) Quote Yeshua is everything to us that the Father is.
If this is true, then why did God see fit that we needed a Mediator?
Nice question Sis.
AdamTo all,
We are the same as Jesus in that he was human. We are different in that all the fulness of the Godhead(deity) dwells in Jesus bodily( Colossians 2:9), and not in us. He would be a demi-god if God had sexsual relations with Mary, but he didn't. Mary was just a vessel that God used to conceive Jesus. He is fully God and fully man. The scriptures in indicate that he existed with God. Scripture such as “… before Abraham was, I am. or In the begining was the word and the word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the begining with God. All things were made by him, and without nothing was made that was made. I donot believe he pre-existed as a human, otherwise he wouldn't have had to be begotten.
Quote (gsilva72 @ June 01 2008,03:17) Mary was just a vessel
Can you hear the gasping of every women alive on planet earth?
Quote – “Can you hear the gasping of every women alive on planet earth?”
Hi not3in1 Sorry to have put it in such a blunt, incensative way, but you do agree Mary was a chosen women, who had favor in God's eyes to conceive what would be called the Son of God? You don't believe there was any kind of sexual activity between them, do you?
Mandy and Adam…………you both have it right, don't let these deceived trinitarians confuse you with all their twisting of scriptures, I am not really weired though because the Spirit guiding you is greater then their distorted theologies. And you both do have the spirit or you could not come out of all the confusion cause by the false religion of trinitarians, and halfway trinitarians.
It's good to truly understand God's word and know its sound reasons. It gives you real Hope in a sound way. Both of your stands show the effectual working of the Spirit of God, which is The Spirit of truth.
If we look at the Father as Jesus did and do what He said and worship the Father as he did, then we will overcome exactly as He did also. But if you worship Jesus in place of the Father you commit IDOLATRY, and are breakers of the First commandment as Jesus plainly said, the Greatest commandment was to love the Lord our Gd with all our Hearts.
And the Father also said you shall have no other GOD Besides ME, WE worship the same God Jesus worshiped and we also respect Our brother Jesus. The way he made is the way we make it , as he said, “who soever overcomes, (EVEN) as I have ” . Jesus spoke well of them when he said “why call me Lord and do not what I say”, these dreamers make Jesus the God to Worship and Don't worship the God Jesus worshiped.
Just Go to any of their Churches and the (ONLY) name you hear mentioned is Jesus, but hardly ever hears the Fathers name mentioned. They have completely replaced the Father with Jesus, some thing Jesus never Did , Jesus always made the Father the object of His full attention.
Stand firm and you will receive the prize of the high calling. And be counted in the Israel of God. Peace to all who hold to these truths. Today the word of God reminds me of a large log jam all these false teaching is causing the logs not to flow freely down the river of Life. But those whom God is with will work their way through the jam and the words will flow freely and soundly.
Adam and Mandy, peace and love to you both………………gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,18:29) Hey bro, Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,18:21)
Notice everything that Yeshua is to us was what the Father was to the Hebrews. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.You say it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out, but you are perhaps putting things together that Jesus never intended?
Really, and how is that? Because I believe Yeshua is all those things to me and much more, is it a sin to call him my God and to worship him as such especially when I see his followers worshipping him and calling him God. I serve one Lord and master, one God.
To serve a mere man and be married to him and becoming his bond slave would be in violation of the scriptures that say…Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exod 20:3-5
And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. Deut 8:19
And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, [then] put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and serve him only: and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines. 1 Sam 7:3
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,18:21)
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other… Luke 16:13To have the Son is to have the Father. To honour the Son even as we honour the Father pleases the Father.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,18:29) Hey bro,
I agree. But we have one Teacher who is our Lord, and we have one God who is our Father.So then the Father is not Lord? It sounds like you have 2 masters.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,18:21)
Yeshua is everything to us that the Father is.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,18:29) Hey bro,
If this is true, then why did God see fit that we needed a Mediator?
That’s the whole point, that if Yeshua was not all that the Father is then how could he be our Mediator? If your image of the Mediator is less than the Father then the Mediator would not be a true representation of the Father, would he?Yeshua said…
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? John 14:9Can you name one attribute of the Father that is different than Yeshua?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2008,18:21)
There is no coming to the Father apart from Yeshua, for they are one in every sense.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,18:29)
I agree with the first part of the sentence. However they are one as we are one. We cannot be one with God in “every sense”, neither could the disciples. So that oneness must be explained other than the trinity idea, imo.Yes we are one, but not as the Father and the Son are one, for like the Father, Yeshua dwells in our spirits by his Spirit. We could never dwell in one another for that would make us God. We have been made to drink of that One Spirit, the Spirit of Yeshua, the Spirit of God!
Blessings!
WJ……Your statement about the mediator having be no less the the one who sent him is pure garbage. Jesus Plainly said the Father was greater then Him. Jesus did not know things the Father did and even said so.
Jesus also said He could do nothing on His own, Does that Fit the Father, doesn't it say “For God does (ALL) things after the council of His (OWN) WILL”. And we all know Jesus will was Different from the Fathers Will.
Again you fail to take the SUM of God Word into consideration and are forcing the text to try to come out to the trinitarian views. Pure Heresy. Trinitarians never consider all of God's words because their teachings would fall apart, so they simply ignore all the contrary scriptures. But any HONEST person would take into consideration all Scripture and Not ignore any of them.
IMO……..gene
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