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Hi Tim, nice question. I have also faced same arguement with one of the pastors here in India. He also believes there is only one True God the Father, but he also believes that this one True God was not revealed in the Old Testament. The God who spoke to Israelites was some inferior God called 'the angel of Jehovah' who later became Jesus in the New Testament.
Hi T8, Thanks for openning yourself for deliberations.
One thing you have to remember is either you can be a full pledged Trinitarian and accept all those titles you have quoted in your post above or you have to be full pledged non-trinitarian who believes in monotheism and that One God is only the creator and there no one else besides him. You can not be in between like believing monotheism one side and also making Jesus some how God (as per your titles quoted above) by believing his pre-existence. I agree that we can not fully prove any one side by quoting mere verses like you have done above. Bible is not coming in black and white in explaining the nature of Jesus and what way he is involved in the creation process. If you see the Old Testament verses like Is 44:6-8, 24; 45:5-12, we can understand there is only one God who created this universe without anybody's help and there was no one besides Him. In New Testament we read verses like Col 1:15-19; Heb 1:1-3; 1Cori 8:6 etc., it appears to us as if Jesus is some how involved in this creation. There are many arguemnets in this forum on these issues for which we have not visualised any end. We are standing in our position whereever we are and whatever our understanding has brought us. How long we can go like this? Is there is any conclusion for these arguements?
I can only share my convictions as per the guidence of Holy Spirit, that I belive there is only One True God the Father who created this whole universe through his spoken word with a purpose. Jesus is His only begotten son who is the bodily manifestation of that same word through which God created this universe. He (Jesus) was made in the same nature like us human beings with flesh and blood and tasted all our weaknesses. He is the human mediator between that one God and men and also the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. He was like second Adam through whom righteousness came to all those who believe in his name. If at all Jesus involved in God's creation is through that same 'word' which was in the beginning with God not as some being as you the pre-existence people believe. God plannned everything according to His foreknowledge and foreplan keeping Jesus His son in mind. He (God) has kept time boundaries(limits) for everything to happen including when to have a son.
As per your query regarding Jesus coming of 2000 years ago is also included in God's time table. Why Jesus alone even we believers had also been chosen by God before the foundations of the world. God is a master planner. You have mentioned about Jesus being the image of God, yes even Adam was created in the image of God. You have to understand God's characteristics through His creation only as mentioned in Rom 1:20. God was revealing Himself through His creation in many time and in many ways. In Old Testament He revealed Himself through angels and men. That's why many people misunderstood God by seeing the angelic manifestation. In New Testament God revealed fully through His begotten Son. But not one manifestation can equate to the the invisible God. Even today God can not be seen by Humans as mentioned in 1 Tim 6:16.
We have to understand God and Jesus in totallity not in fractions or fragments.
If I am wrong please correct me.
Peace to you all
AdamAdam…….right on brother, What you have written is true and right and has the ring of God's Spirit in it.
May God continue to bless you and give you more and more understanding .
Love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ May 27 2008,19:44) Quote (t8 @ May 27 2008,18:59) God created all things through him and for him. The Word was with God in the beginning.
Hi t8,
What do you mean by quoting these lines here?
Do you want to say that Jesus was the 'word' that was existing with the Father in the beginning through which He created the the worlds?
Here only we are differing in understanding. One side you say there was only one God in the beginning and otherside you want to prove that Jesus was the word existing with that one God in the beginning. If that is your understanding then the 'word' which was in the beginning was also called God in Jn1:1, there by you are making two Gods existing in the beginning which can not be agreed by any non-trinitarian.
Please understand that there was no pre-existence to Jesus prior to his birth through Mary (Gal 4:4-5 ; 1 Pet1:20). The word mentioned in Jn 1:1 was not a separate person from God the Father but His own word that was conceived in His mind for a purpose and spoken to create the worlds. Also read Ps 33:6 & Is 55:8-11. God sent His word through His Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary to manifest in flesh that is Jesus the Christ, the Son of God.
It is so simple to understand that God created this universe through His word in the beginning and the same word has been manifested in the flesh of Jesus.
Peace to you all
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ May 27 2008,19:44)
Hi t8,
What do you mean by quoting these lines here?
Do you want to say that Jesus was the 'word' that was existing with the Father in the beginning through which He created the the worlds?
Here only we are differing in understanding. One side you say there was only one God in the beginning and otherside you want to prove that Jesus was the word existing with that one God in the beginning. If that is your understanding then the 'word' which was in the beginning was also called God in Jn1:1, there by you are making two Gods existing in the beginning which can not be agreed by any non-trinitarian.Bingo! I think you will find that t8 is a Henotheist that believes in more than “One God” but worships only one that is the Father, however he says he also worships Yeshua as the Son of God and the Lamb.
He believes that Jesus is “a god” of sorts but not the “True God”. Kinda like the JWs except they believe that Michael the Arch-Angel came in the flesh.
You can read about this Here!
Quote (942767 @ May 27 2008,10:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2008,03:17) Here is an excellent exegesis on Hebrews 1:10. Blessings
Hi Bro. WJ:There is alot of assumption in the exegesis:
For example brother Isaiah states:
Quote Psalm 102:25 is a verse quite obviously written about YHWH, but according to the Hebrews’ writer it was, in reality, an utterance spoken by the Father to the Son “According to the Hebrews' writer it was, IN REALITY, and utterance spoken by the Father to the Son”?
Maybe you can explain. Thanks.
God Bless
94Heb 1:10 is a quote of Pss 102:25.
I believe what Is 1:18 is saying is that the writer of Hebrews inspired by the Holy Spirit is given revelation of the scripture Pss 102:25 which is about YHWH and elevates the scripture to meaning that Pss 102:25 is actually the Father speaking to Yeshua. In other words like in other places in the OT Yeshua is referred to as YHWH.
Here is a sight that may help.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2008,02:30) T8……..non of what you quoted would prevent Jesus from having come into existence at the time of His berth from Mary. Think about it does any of what you quoted specifically say Jesus was alive before his berth. Jesus could have just as easly met He was in God's plan before Abraham existed.
You are right Gene.
the phrase “before Abraham, I am.” does not make much sense. It doesn't follow any acceptable guidelines for sentence structure.Jesus actually said “before Abraham I am to come into being.”
That is from the Greek interlineary, and sounds more like even before Abraham it was planned for Jesus to come into being.Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2008,09:24) Hi WJ,
Jesus is not the one true God.
He is the Son of that God.
You are slow of learning.
NHYes, I suppose me and millions of others!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2008,09:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2008,09:24) Hi WJ,
Jesus is not the one true God.
He is the Son of that God.
You are slow of learning.
NHYes, I suppose me and millions of others!
Remember, the tortoise won the race with the hare.
Slow is good.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ May 28 2008,10:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2008,09:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2008,09:24) Hi WJ,
Jesus is not the one true God.
He is the Son of that God.
You are slow of learning.
NHYes, I suppose me and millions of others!
Remember, the tortoise won the race with the hare.
Slow is good. Tim
Tim Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2008,03:34) Adam…….right on brother, What you have written is true and right and has the ring of God's Spirit in it. May God continue to bless you and give you more and more understanding .
Love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
Thank you brother, Gene.
I wanted share what I believe through the guidence of Holy Spirit.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (TimothyVI @ May 28 2008,00:01) It sounds like you, as do many people, believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
Using verses like Col 1:17 and John 1:3 to support that belief.
I don't believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament consequently he is not YHWH. Rather I believe that he is the son of YHWH, the image of YHWH, and the messenger of YHWH.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2008,02:30) If Jesus said before Abraham i am, He did not say He was alive did He, and if he were alive why did he say Abraham looked forward to his day and saw it, when in fact he would have been alive all ready.
I am means I exist, I present.ego – I, me, my
eimi – to be, to exist, to happen, to be presentego eimi is used though out the New Testament and from what I can see, it doesn't in one instance mean the opposite i.e., I didn't exist.
When you say I am, it means that you exist, you are present.
“I think therefore I am” means that you exist because you have a mind to think with.
Lets see you construct a sentence using I am that means you do not exist.
I will try the first one:
“I am the one that doesn't exist.”NOTE: It makes no sense because I am speaking and saying of myself that I do not exist.
I am = I exist.
That is why YHWH said I am that I am. It was because he was the ever existing one.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'Did God exist when he said “I am who I am”? Or could you say that he didn't necessarily exist?
Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Jesus is the “I am who I am” of the Old Testament.
In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.”
In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.”
In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.”None of these examples are used to say that someone didn't exist. Quite the opposite.
Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,16:13) Quote (TimothyVI @ May 28 2008,00:01) It sounds like you, as do many people, believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
Using verses like Col 1:17 and John 1:3 to support that belief.
I don't believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament consequently he is not YHWH. Rather I believe that he is the son of YHWH, the image of YHWH, and the messenger of YHWH.
Thank you T8, I missunderstood.Tim
To All……..yhwh simply means (HE EXISTS) and if you Add Eloyhim (POWERS) or as we say LORD GOD, it means, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) This is the Most High God, and the (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD) and (DEITY), Through which all things EXIST, and receive their EXISTENCE, both in heaven and in earth. One God and there is one mediator between Him and us, the (MAN) Jesus Christ. Not the LORD GOD Jesus, but the (MAN) Jesus. (Through) whom God Spoke.
If we all can come to understand that alone, it will solve a lot of confusion caused by these lying trinitarians.
IMO……….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2008,02:57) To All……..yhwh simply means (HE EXISTS) and if you Add Eloyhim (POWERS) or as we say LORD GOD, it means, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) This is the Most High God, and the (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD) and (DEITY), Through which all things EXIST, and receive their EXISTENCE, both in heaven and in earth. One God and there is one mediator between Him and us, the (MAN) Jesus Christ. Not the LORD GOD Jesus, but the (MAN) Jesus. (Through) whom God Spoke. If we all can come to understand that alone, it will solve a lot of confusion caused by these lying trinitarians.
IMO……….gene
Jesus said, before Abraham he existed. He said “Before Abraham, I am”.Jesus said it. Not me.
Quote (t8 @ May 30 2008,18:46) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2008,02:57) To All……..yhwh simply means (HE EXISTS) and if you Add Eloyhim (POWERS) or as we say LORD GOD, it means, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) This is the Most High God, and the (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD) and (DEITY), Through which all things EXIST, and receive their EXISTENCE, both in heaven and in earth. One God and there is one mediator between Him and us, the (MAN) Jesus Christ. Not the LORD GOD Jesus, but the (MAN) Jesus. (Through) whom God Spoke. If we all can come to understand that alone, it will solve a lot of confusion caused by these lying trinitarians.
IMO……….gene
Jesus said, before Abraham he existed. He said “Before Abraham, I am”.Jesus said it. Not me.
Hi T8
Jesus actually said “before Abraham I am to come into being.”
That is from the Greek interlineary word for word translation.
It sounds more to me like, even before Abraham it was planned for Jesus to come into being.Tim
Tim……> I agree before Abraham Jesus was planned to come into being and the plan became reality when he was born through Mary. A son of man, another Adam, a unique born man.
He was (foreordained) but was (manifested) in our time, according to Peter.
peace……gene
Hi,
Jn8.58
AM
Number 1510
Transliteration:
eimi {i-mee'}
Word Origin:
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
TDNT:
2:398,206
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
I am 1473 74, am 55, it is I 1473 6, be 2, I was 1473 1, have been 1, not tr 7Total: 146
Definition:
to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
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