Honesty with scripture

Participant

Quote (davidbfun @ July 30 2010,13:50)

Quote (barley @ July 30 2010,21:28)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2010,10:42)

Hi B,
Where do the scriptures teach that Paul's thorn in the flesh was other people?

nick,

God is the author of the entire word of God. God knows what He is talking about. When God uses a word or a phrase in His word, the meaning of it generally is consistent throughout the rest of the scriptures. Sometimes, He may redefine a word. If we look at the first time a word is used in the scripture, that first usage pretty much sets the foundation of its meaning throughout the rest of scripture. That is why, if the scripture does not explain something after it speaks on a subject, then we must look at previous passages to find our answer. This is the case with the phrase, “thorn is the flesh”. Similar enough phrases are used in the OT, and the context tells us that the phrase is referring to unbelievers.

So then, Paul's thorn in the flesh. II Corinthians 12:7-10. Are there other similar phrases that help define how the scripture uses it, and how the scripture intends it to be understood as? Yes. Look at Numbers 33:55 and Joshua 23:13. The usage of thorns in their side or pricks in their eyes is referring to people, specifically to unbelievers. See II Corinthians 11:24-26. Who was it that beat up Paul? People. Who was putting Paul in peril? People. Let's apply the “in the verse” principle to II Corinthians 12:7. Was it a messenger from God? No, it was a messenger from Satan. Satan worked hard to get people to obstruct Paul's ministry. Paul's thorn in the flesh is people, who obstructed Paul's ministry.

nick, look up Numbers and Joshua, the phrases are similar, the teaching is that God wants Israel to drive out the wrongful inhabitants of the promised land. These people were unbelievers. If Israel did not drive them out these unbelievers would be as, “pricks in your eyes” and “thorns in your sides”. If a ##### (evidently, there is some censorship thing that over rode the word “aprick” thinking evil of a word used in the scripture) is in you eye is it in your flesh? If a thorn is in your side, is it in your flesh? The key is that these unbelievers would be LIKE thorns in your flesh.

Hi Barley,

I liked what you said about a word's first usage in the Bible.

I'd like you to look at the first usage of two words in two verses and tell me how “you” would translate them, ok?

Gen 1:2 RuachElohim
Gen 2:4 YHVHElohim

Please translate them consistently. Only the words and not the rest of the sentences.

We know Elohim = God; Ruach = Spirit; YHVH = YHVH

So would you translate them as:

Spirit of God and YHVH of Elohim OR
God's Spirit and God's YHVH

David

Davidbfun,

I am glad you liked that. It makes a lot of horse sense, doesn't it? God is consistent. God is faithful. His words are faithful. He is not some emotional basket case that can't keep track of what he might be blubbering. God is spirit, John 4:24. I have yet to see any reference to God, who is spirit, having emotions as humans do. Except, of course, where the figure of speech condescencio is used. But then, of course, it is a figure of speech and not literal. Since God is a Lord as well, He is going to faithfully rule by his faithful words that He has given us.

In your reply to me regarding your thread about Melchizedek, you stated the following:

“It seems that many read what is written and change it to mean whatever they want it to mean and by whatever means is available to them.

Please forgive me Barley as I believe my frustration came to a boiling point with this post. I have been reading so many things at this site that are quite disturbing such as the Greek word debate over whether Jesus was the “firstborn” or “begotten” son and how all words are not what they mean and try to back their opinion up with scripture. I am just a dumb blonde that would like to read the Bible at face value without having to doubt if anything is correct.

I picked this subject and verse because I thought it was quite clear and had a simple answer “Yes” Melchizedek is God because of the characteristics of God that were given (no mother, no father, no genealogy, no beginning of days nor end of life). Now I see that people can rationalize away anything that is written with an analogy of their own devise.”
David

Are you sure you would trust me?

So, regarding your request about Elohim, Jehovah, and ruach:

I have not studied that, therefore I would not want to venture an answer, because it may be tainted with opinion. I would want to make sure that I, with the help of others, would cleanse any answer of opinion.

Likewise, you no doubt have a more extensive Hebrew background than me. So you would be the expert here.

It seems that you have the answer. As you pointed out:

Elohim = God;
Ruach = Spirit;
YHVH = YHVH

Let me ask you, is Elohim a possessive noun? It must not be, else you would have given the following:

Elohim = God's;

Is there a Hebrew word that justifies inserting the word “of” into the translation? That is, a strict word for word translation.

Is Jehovah being translated “Lord” a reasonable translation?

With these additional questions, you might be able to narrow down your answers.

In addition though, you might want to ask yourself, ” Is there another legitimate way to translate this that I have not thought of yet?”

Thanks for asking. I believe that these additional criteria will help you with your quest.

barley

July 31, 2010 at 6:59 am#206984

david

Participant

Quote

Is Jehovah being translated “Lord” a reasonable translation?

It's not so much a “translation” as it is a “substitution.”

July 31, 2010 at 4:08 pm#207089

Ed J

Participant

Hi Martin,

You explain things in this thread with the understanding of a man. (Isaiah 55:7-11)
“The Bible” is best understood in much the same way “Optics” are understood.
What I mean is: “The Bible” must be understood as “a whole”, Gen. to Rev.

But how is this done? Let us use “Optics” as a comparative example; OK?
The closer you look at something, the less that can be seen in the field of view.
And likewise, the focus of detail is lost with the greater field of view. I hope you all
are following what I’m saying so far? I know WJ and Kang have trouble understanding
higher concepts. This is quite a conundrum, as you can only read one Bible verse at a time.

Consider what it would take to make a map without the advent of aerial photography?
First you must understand each and every section of terrain. And then fit all sections
of terrain by scale into their respective positions. Scale is imperative to the whole.
But in order to fit all the sections by scale into the whole, “The Big Picture” has
to be clearly understood in the mapmakers mind; then all the pieces will fit!

When beginners start to read The Scriptures they don’t understand what
“God” wants them to, because of what the ‘systems of religion’ taught them.
If they have been baptized with The “HolySpirit” and are open to His teachings,
then they will be like a skilled mapmaker understanding the terrain of God’s Word!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 31, 2010 at 11:37 pm#207173

Participant

Quote (barley @ July 30 2010,13:36)

Quote (martian @ July 30 2010,11:23)

Quote (barley @ July 30 2010,10:30)

Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34)

I am not surprised that no one else has posted any principles that they use. I think probably some have not the education to really interpret scripture but I know others do not want to follow any principles other then their own opinion. I guess they get their opinions verified by pimples forming on their knees or something. Some will say they are “led by the Spirit”. that is all fine and good as long as your leading is from God and not their own imaginations. That is why we have a more sure wod of prophecy.

Martian,

Since you seem to want more than l gave, I will do so.

Couple more,

Since the scriptures was written down by people living in a different culture than ours. Namely, theirs is an Eastern culture, ours a Western culture. Some elusive passages may be explained by finding out what is being said from within their culture. Ie, their wedding customs differ from ours. When Jesus Christ said of his disciples, “Ye are the salt of the earth.” It is most interesting to find out what salt was used for in that culture. There are many many more.
There are several great books that can help out,

One author is Freeman.

Another thing that must be understood is figures of speech. There are over 200 varieties of figures of speech that have been used in older cultures, such as the Hebrew and Greek. Most of them have been used in scripture. Some of these figures have about 40 varieties within one figure.

Three that are simple to note are

1.Simile – using the word like or as to express an similarity. Ie, the kingdom of heaven is like. It does not say it equals but it says it is like.

2. Metaphor – expressing a resemblance by representation. One of the parables, the sower went out to sow. Found in Matthew 13:24-30. What is the meaning of the parable? Does anyone want to guess, or are we willing to go to the scriptures for answer? The explanation of the parable in Matthew 13:36-43. The sower of the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, etc.

3. Hypocatastasis – a comparison by implication. JC said of Herod, Go tell that fox. JC was implying that Herod was sly as a fox. Luke 13:32.

Another figure of speech is the parable.It is an extended simile. Not just a phrase, but a whole story.

Well there are plenty more.

barley.

I agree with you completely. I might also suggest Jeff Benner and his Ancient Hebrew Research Center. I have found his explaination of Hebrew culture very easy to understand.

Martian,

I wanted to elaborate on the study of Eastern culture. Just like our Western culture is not perfect in relationship to scripture, the Eastern culture did not necessarily reflect God's will. When their culture lined up with scripture, great. But Eastern culture has its problems as well. Basically, being Eastern culture does not make Eastern culture, “gospel”. But learning about the culture helps us understand scripture more clearly

barley

Understanding the culture from which the scriptures were written can bring a great deal of understanding that cannot be found trying to understand it from our Western thinking.

August 1, 2010 at 2:18 am#207184

Participant

Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34)

Hi Martian:

I agree with the principles that you stated, but there is one very important one that we need to apply and that is to ask the One who wrote the book to give us understanding of His Word so that we can walk in unity.

James 1:

Quote

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

My prayer is “Father if I am teaching anything that is not your Word or doing anything that is not in accordance with your will, correct me in Jesus name.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 1, 2010 at 4:13 am#207195

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Marty…….Jesus said we shall all be taught by GOD. The Spirit give us the understanding we need (IT) BOTH ACCUSES US AND DEFENDS US, and again, “brethren you have no need of a teacher for the Spirit itself shall teach you all things”. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

August 1, 2010 at 4:31 am#207197

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,15:13)

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Hi Gene:

Why then are we divided on doctrines such as preexistence, too many opinions in my opinion. If God wrote the book, He should know what he intended by the scriptures in question.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 1, 2010 at 12:30 pm#207222

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2010,13:18)

Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34)

Hi Martian:

James 1:

Quote

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

My prayer is “Father if I am teaching anything that is not your Word or doing anything that is not in accordance with your will, correct me in Jesus name.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

That depends on how well a person hears from God. Everyone thinks they have perfect discernment but the truth usually shows something quite different.
We have a more sue word of prophecy.

August 1, 2010 at 2:21 pm#207224

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2010,15:31)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,15:13)

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Hi Gene:

Why then are we divided on doctrines such as preexistence, too many opinions in my opinion. If God wrote the book, He should know what he intended by the scriptures in question.

Love in Christ,
Marty

942767,

You bring up a most excellent point.

God certainly knows what he is talking about.

Our job is to learn and to utilize what He wants us to know and do.

Our opinions about truth are useless.

Our preconceived notions about what the truth is are useless.

It is a difficult task at times to wash away our opinions and preconceived notions before we approach the study of God's words.

Let us take a simple example that astounded me just a few years ago.

I am old enough to have seen the movie, “The Ten Commandments” with Charlton Heston as Moses, in the theater. I was attending parochial school at the time, and the movie was highly recommended.

The scene where Moses descends from the mountain with the two stone tablets. The tablets are of such a size that they start at about his belly and go to his shoulders. It requires that he carry them with both his arms supporting them. Also, the stones had writing on them on one side only.

I believe that most of us have a similar mind picture of that event and the description of the stones.

However, that is wrong, Exodus 32:15 describes something very different. “And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his HAND: the tables were written on BOTH their sides: on the one side and on the other they were written.”

I was shocked. (Yet, also delighted, for I had learned something, something very wonderful)

The stone tablets had writing on BOTH sides and he was able to carry both in a HAND. Not both arms, but in one hand. I have not checked the Hebrew, but four out of five versions I checked have hand, singular, not hands, plural.

I had a preconceived notion that I was not aware of. How did I come by this preconceived notion? By pictures, movies, and teachings that misrepresented the truth.

How important of a detail is this? It is important enough for God to have had it recorded. That is how important it is. As a matter of record, God repeats that point that they were written on on both sides. He did not want us to miss this point.

What difference does this make to my living the truth?

Big difference, I realized that the error of my preconceived notion showed a big burden to carry the truth.

However truth is light, it can be carried in one hand.

“My burden is light and my yoke is easy”, is what Jesus Christ said.

Etc. etc. etc.

Oatmeal

August 1, 2010 at 2:42 pm#207227

JustAskin

Participant

94,
Is it really conceivable that you are astounded by a Holiwood movie. Holiwood is an abomination to God's world.

It's sole purpose is to make money, entertainment is a clise third.

It is false to truth, as you have found out. Accurate depiction are the last item on their agenda.

94, i keep saying…All basic requirements for understanding Scriptures is in the Scriptures…certainly not what Holiwood depicts.

August 1, 2010 at 9:05 pm#207257

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 02 2010,01:42)

94,
Is it really conceivable that you are astounded by a Holiwood movie. Holiwood is an abomination to God's world.

It's sole purpose is to make money, entertainment is a clise third.

It is false to truth, as you have found out. Accurate depiction are the last item on their agenda.

94, i keep saying…All basic requirements for understanding Scriptures is in the Scriptures…certainly not what Holiwood depicts.

God works through the natural realm. He can easily use a movie from hollywood to spark a though or a revelation.
I think you need to get over your holier then thou attitude.

August 2, 2010 at 4:09 pm#207381

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (barley @ Aug. 02 2010,01:21)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2010,15:31)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,15:13)

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Hi Gene:

Why then are we divided on doctrines such as preexistence, too many opinions in my opinion. If God wrote the book, He should know what he intended by the scriptures in question.

Love in Christ,
Marty

942767,

You bring up a most excellent point.

God certainly knows what he is talking about.

Our job is to learn and to utilize what He wants us to know and do.

Our opinions about truth are useless.

Our preconceived notions about what the truth is are useless.

It is a difficult task at times to wash away our opinions and preconceived notions before we approach the study of God's words.

Let us take a simple example that astounded me just a few years ago.

I am old enough to have seen the movie, “The Ten Commandments” with Charlton Heston as Moses, in the theater. I was attending parochial school at the time, and the movie was highly recommended.

I believe that most of us have a similar mind picture of that event and the description of the stones.

I was shocked. (Yet, also delighted, for I had learned something, something very wonderful)

I had a preconceived notion that I was not aware of. How did I come by this preconceived notion? By pictures, movies, and teachings that misrepresented the truth.

What difference does this make to my living the truth?

Big difference, I realized that the error of my preconceived notion showed a big burden to carry the truth.

However truth is light, it can be carried in one hand.

“My burden is light and my yoke is easy”, is what Jesus Christ said.

Etc. etc. etc.

Oatmeal

barley……….All of that is answered by one Word (REVEALED) into our minds by GOD the FATHER. “NO YOU NOT YOU SHALL (ALL) BE TAUGHT BY GOD”.

and again…….PETER WHO DO YOU SAY I AM , YOU ARE THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, BLESSED ARE YOU SIMON BARJONA BECAUSE FLESH AND BLOOD (Jesus was flesh and Blood) DID NO (REVEAL) THAT UNTO YOU, BUT MY FATHER WHO IS (in) HEAVEN HAS REVEALED IT UNTO YOU, ……………> AND UPON (THIS) ROCK, (I) SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL (grave) SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.

How simple how clear how absolutely marvelous.

And again……. BRETHERN YOU HAVE NO NEED OF A TEACHER FOR THE SPIRIT (ITSELF) shall teach you (ALL) things.

Look to GOD the Father and you will be given understanding he will reveal it unto you. Have you ever wondered why the last book of the bible is (REVELATIONS)

peace and love to you and your barley

August 2, 2010 at 11:18 pm#207431

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 02 2010,01:42)

94,
Is it really conceivable that you are astounded by a Holiwood movie. Holiwood is an abomination to God's world.

It's sole purpose is to make money, entertainment is a clise third.

It is false to truth, as you have found out. Accurate depiction are the last item on their agenda.

94, i keep saying…All basic requirements for understanding Scriptures is in the Scriptures…certainly not what Holiwood depicts.

Hi JA:

I believe that your post is intended perhaps for Barley?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 2, 2010 at 11:28 pm#207433

Participant

Quote (martian @ Aug. 01 2010,23:30)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2010,13:18)

Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34)

Hi Martian:

James 1:

Quote

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

My prayer is “Father if I am teaching anything that is not your Word or doing anything that is not in accordance with your will, correct me in Jesus name.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

That depends on how well a person hears from God. Everyone thinks they have perfect discernment but the truth usually shows something quite different.
We have a more sue word of prophecy.

Hi Martian:

If you had written a book, and I did not understand something that you said in the book, and I wanted understanding, I would come to you and ask you what you meant by what was in question.

Anyway, When I have a question about the scriptures, I will go to my Father and ask Him for understanding. Isn't that is what He says that we should do in the epistle of James?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 3, 2010 at 2:37 am#207465

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 02 2010,01:42)

94,
Is it really conceivable that you are astounded by a Holiwood movie. Holiwood is an abomination to God's world.

It's sole purpose is to make money, entertainment is a clise third.

It is false to truth, as you have found out. Accurate depiction are the last item on their agenda.

94, i keep saying…All basic requirements for understanding Scriptures is in the Scriptures…certainly not what Holiwood depicts.

Just Askin,

Maybe I did make myself clear enough. I saw this movie about 50 years ago. I was going to parochial school at the time. They recommended it. If I remember correctly, it may have been a field trip our class took to see it.

I do understand what you are saying about Hollywood. As far as providing anything more than entertainment, they could stand a
lot of improvement. Biblical accuracy is not their motivating force for making movies.

This movie was not totally in error. There was a Prophet called Moses who lead the children of Israel out of Egypt and Moses, by the power of God, parted the Red Sea, etc. They obviously miss a lot of important details.

Before we get all worked up about Hollywood missing details, I could name plenty of gross errors that most churches make. Or for that matter, I have made.

Watching movies made in Hollywood is not my cup of tea, either. But I can get equally dismayed by some of the denominations, radio and TV preachers and some of the posters here.

Your preaching to the choir.

Settle down. “Be still and know that I am God”

Your point summarizes what I said.

We need to read scripture and not read into it.

barley/ or oatmeal,

August 3, 2010 at 3:11 am#207473

Participant

Quote (martian @ Aug. 02 2010,08:05)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 02 2010,01:42)

94,
Is it really conceivable that you are astounded by a Holiwood movie. Holiwood is an abomination to God's world.

It's sole purpose is to make money, entertainment is a clise third.

It is false to truth, as you have found out. Accurate depiction are the last item on their agenda.

94, i keep saying…All basic requirements for understanding Scriptures is in the Scriptures…certainly not what Holiwood depicts.

God works through the natural realm. He can easily use a movie from hollywood to spark a though or a revelation.
I think you need to get over your holier then thou attitude.

Martian,

As I read this thread, I appreciate more and more what you have done here.

As humans, we need to be able to think logically and precisely, if we are to reap accurate results consistently.

If your school taught you that 2+2=4, but my school taught me that 2+2=5, we would never be able to agree on some matters.

Humans need words to communicate, and when words have their meanings muddled up, communication deteriorates. Words with multiple meanings can be amusing, but also confusing.

Fixing a car requires logical thinking and facts about the car.

Some have said, that woman are difficult to understand because emotion is more important to them than logic.

We need to find and use reasonable and logical processes in order to understand the words and passages that God inspired. They are human words that God used.

There are more logical principles that I could mention here, but they can wait for now.

The laws of gravity are logical and precise. They can be precisely described by mathematical formulas. Likewise, laws of thermodynamics, etc. Who set up these laws? God. People need to understand that the same God who set up the precision of physical laws is the same God who uses words to communicate His heart to us. God uses words in scripture as least as precisely as natural laws are defined by precise mathematical formulas.

God knows exactly what He wanted said, and commissioned faithful men of God to write His words down.

martian, you are on the right track.
Was it you I read that had some health challenges? Be assured that God is deeply interested in seeing your quick recovery. III John 2. I Peter 2:24. etc. Expect great things from God.

barley

August 3, 2010 at 4:41 am#207493

kerwin

Participant

To all,

I mentioned mystic interpretations of scripture in an earlier post and God led me to one that of these interpretations that God does through a writer of scripture.

In this example the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting in the Sanhedrin to discuss what to do about Jesus after he performed the miracle of raising Lazarus from the dead. After some discussion the chief priest chimed in to state “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” If you look at the context he was speaking about killing one man to protect the state of Judah from the Romans and not speaking of the new covenant. John though departed from the context to boldly declare that the hidden meaning of what the high priest states is that “Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.” He also stated that the words were prophecy even though the context clearly shows they are words of an ordinary conversation. John 11:47-53

In this case it appears that the High Priest made a statement of principle that can be applied to more than one situation. He was speaking of one and John concluded that God also meant it to apply to another.

August 3, 2010 at 11:08 am#207554

Ed J

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2010,15:41)

To all,

I mentioned mystic interpretations of scripture in an earlier post and God led me to one that of these interpretations that God does through a writer of scripture.

Hi Kerwin,

Excellent Exegetical Commentary; Kerwin!
The Bible is full of this type of layered Truth!

Your fellow student!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 3, 2010 at 11:29 am#207555

kerwin

Participant

To whomever it may concern,

I mentioned mystic interpretation and in applying those you must also apply the idea that moderation is the best policy as one can create fantasies.

Often, if not always, the mystic interpretations of scripture are true about both items addressed. They are never false.

August 3, 2010 at 5:03 pm#207567