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Scripture says that God created all things through him. Not that he is the creator. That is what is written.
There seem to be 2 opposing sides in this. One that he is God and the other that he is a man only.
But who says that these are the choices? I choose scripture and I see God and Man and in between I see the prototype son who is unique.
I will quote some letters before the Council of Nicea to see what beliefs were present regarding this subject:
Quote Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 110 A.D)
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).Quote Aristides (ca. 125 A.D) – Now the Christians trace their origin from the Lord Jesus Christ. And He is acknowledged by the Holy Spirit to be the son of the Most High God, who came down from heaven for the salvation of men.(Apology 15). Quote Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D) – But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words, Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, Quote Tatian – And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father Now look at the words of Christ:
John 8:57-60
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
There are just too many scriptures and other early letters that speak of such for me to just write them off. Notice in the scripture above that the Jews even said you are not old enough to have seen Abraham, so they took what he was saying as being older than Abraham. Jesus slipped away because it wasn't his time to die, but notice the persecution regarding this.
Hi T8,
Why do you see Jesus differenly than us? Jesus is the mystery of God for us to become His(God's) children. Please read Ephes 1:9-11, God purposed everything in Jesus to sum up all things in him (Christ). We will be co-heirs with Christ as sons and daughters in God's family. If Jesus has to be other than like us we can not be his co-heirs. Please understand this. You need not make Jesus somebody who is neither God nor simply man as you have quoted above.
Peace to you
AdamSome say that Jesus is a man only and was created as a man and didn't exist before that.
Others say that he is almighty God who became a man.But what does scripture say: He existed with divine nature and emptied/humbled himself and took on the nature of a servant and partook of flesh. He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created.
So why do I have to choose between Athanasius or Arius? Why can't I choose scripture and why isn't that choice good enough?
Hi T8,
What was he (Jesus)? Was he an angel or Spirit?
You have not answered my question?
Why do you want to believe some thing which is not proved?
All those verses can be infered any way as per the belief whether Trinitarian or Arian.
Sorry for repeated questions my brother I know you are having great zeal for the Lord. Please see things as proved. You are the right person to pass on to many.
Peace to you
Adamgollamudi. Jesus is a mystery that has been revealed in these times.
So being a mystery, we do not have whole texts that say in detail what happened before creation. In fact we are purposely not told many things regarding details on the rebellion, details on what creation was like before sin, etc.
What we are given is that he existed with divine nature and emptied/humbled himself and took on the nature of a servant and partook of flesh. He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created. That he said that he was before Abraham, and that God made all things through him and for him.
We are told that he has preeminence in all things and that he is the firstborn of all creation etc.
Now my stance is this. That such truths can only come from the Spirit of God. And understanding from the spirit of man cannot reveal God and truth. It is by the Spirit of Truth that truth comes. So given that, my answer is the scripture and I will not be pulled away from it.
Satan tried to tempt Jesus to do things and Jesus always stayed with scripture. I wish to be like him and therefore I too give you scripture as my answer. So my answer to you is the scriptures I have given you.
He existed with divine nature and lowered himself to partake of human nature. Even though he is greater than all the angels, he existed in a form lower than the angels for a time. I can say such because it is written.
Now if you wish me to give me details about the rebellion among angels, then I will again only give you scripture.
I do not wish to make the mistake of taking a side that goes beyond scripture or trying to fill in the gaps with my own understanding. I know that the moment I do that, then that is the moment I have erred.
The real question that needs to be asked however is “why isn't scripture good enough”? Why the need for a man made creed?
T8……you have a big problem, It doesn't say He (existed) past tense . You have changed the text, it says (EXISTING) Present tense, big difference. You are referring a past existence, but text refers a present or at the time of his ministry on earth.
Your trying to make the text imply before he was born and it doesn't imply that.
Why do you and so many others want to see Jesus as different from ourself, whats the reason behind that I know you will say scripture says so, but i have yet to see any scripture that specifically says Jesus was a Preexistent Being of any Kind, nor any activity of His before His berth.
Give one good reason God would have done things that way, Just one good reason for it.
I can give you all kinds of reasons for Jesus Being Just an ordinary Man though. That God Perfected, i mean 100's of good reasons, but i have never ever heard (ONE) good reason for Him preexisting as a super being though.Can any come up with Just (ONE)>
Peace to you…………..gene
gollamudi……….you find no straight answer if they cant really explain it they simple pull out the mystery card. What you said earlier was right they stand with their feet in two different boats and they will only fall between them.
It never stops to amaze me how simple it is to understand and how few can see it. But it is inspiring when i read the words of those who do. But I will warn you to not get to mixed up in there debates its simple a wast of time, ” unless the Lord shall build the House the wherry builders, build in vain”.
But i am thankful there are some who God has granted to see and understand, or i would not even wast my time here.
peace to you and yours……………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2008,23:21) Hi T8,
Why do you see Jesus differenly than us? Jesus is the mystery of God for us to become His(God's) children. Please read Ephes 1:9-11, God purposed everything in Jesus to sum up all things in him (Christ). We will be co-heirs with Christ as sons and daughters in God's family. If Jesus has to be other than like us we can not be his co-heirs. Please understand this. You need not make Jesus somebody who is neither God nor simply man as you have quoted above.
Peace to you
Adam
Hi GB,
Why do you let the plan of God confuse you about the unique origins of Christ?
They are separate matters.Christ was the secret of God hidden till the time God's plan was to be revealed. The Word who was with God in the beginning was made flesh and dwelt among us.
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2008,23:26) Some say that Jesus is a man only and was created as a man and didn't exist before that.
Others say that he is almighty God who became a man.But what does scripture say: He existed with divine nature and emptied/humbled himself and took on the nature of a servant and partook of flesh. He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created.
So why do I have to choose between Athanasius or Arius? Why can't I choose scripture and why isn't that choice good enough?
Hi T8:You say:
Quote He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created. Where is that scripture?
Hi 94,
Try Dan7
” 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,07:51) Hi T8: You say:
Quote He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created. Where is that scripture?
John 17:5 (NIV)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 17:5 (KJV)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.John 17:5 (NASB)
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,03:31) gollamudi……….you find no straight answer if they cant really explain it they simple pull out the mystery card. What you said earlier was right they stand with their feet in two different boats and they will only fall between them. It never stops to amaze me how simple it is to understand and how few can see it. But it is inspiring when i read the words of those who do. But I will warn you to not get to mixed up in there debates its simple a wast of time, ” unless the Lord shall build the House the wherry builders, build in vain”.
But i am thankful there are some who God has granted to see and understand, or i would not even wast my time here.
peace to you and yours……………..gene
Is scripture not a straight enough answer? If not, then Jesus wasn't very straight up when defending himself against the Devil in the wilderness. He used scripture and said “it is written”.The following is also written:
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Philippians 2:6 (NIV)
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Philippians 2:6
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,I believe these scriptures. If this is not straight enough, then do you think that a man made answer is straighter than scripture? Because I have to disagree with that.
Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,11:02) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,07:51) Hi T8: You say:
Quote He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created. Where is that scripture?
John 17:5 (NIV)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 17:5 (KJV)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.John 17:5 (NASB)
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Hi t8:I am aware of these scriptures, and your assumption here is that pre-existed in this glory. You add the words “he returned to the glory” which I believe is an assumption on your part and my understanding is that this glory was forseen because of the following scripture.
Quote Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world God Bless
Hi 94,
So Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began
But did not actually exist when he had that glory?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,03:13) T8……you have a big problem, It doesn't say He (existed) past tense . You have changed the text, it says (EXISTING) Present tense, big difference. You are referring a past existence, but text refers a present or at the time of his ministry on earth. Your trying to make the text imply before he was born and it doesn't imply that.
Why do you and so many others want to see Jesus as different from ourself, whats the reason behind that I know you will say scripture says so, but i have yet to see any scripture that specifically says Jesus was a Preexistent Being of any Kind, nor any activity of His before His berth.
Give one good reason God would have done things that way, Just one good reason for it.
I can give you all kinds of reasons for Jesus Being Just an ordinary Man though. That God Perfected, i mean 100's of good reasons, but i have never ever heard (ONE) good reason for Him preexisting as a super being though.Can any come up with Just (ONE)>
Peace to you…………..gene
1) Divine nature/form of God
2) Emptied himself
3) Human nature
4) Humbled to the point of death
5) Raised from the dead
6) Glorified with the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
7) Seated in the highest place at the right hand of the Father.That is what certain scriptures say. I don't see why I shouldn't believe what those scriptures are saying. The world is full of people who don't want you to believe the scriptures. I meet such everyday.
Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,11:17) Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,11:02) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,07:51) Hi T8: You say:
Quote He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was created. Where is that scripture?
John 17:5 (NIV)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 17:5 (KJV)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.John 17:5 (NASB)
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Hi t8:I am aware of these scriptures, and your assumption here is that pre-existed in this glory. You add the words “he returned to the glory” which I believe is an assumption on your part and my understanding is that this glory was forseen because of the following scripture.
Quote Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world God Bless
“with the glory which I HAD with thee BEFORE the world was.”“the glory I HAD with you BEFORE the world began”
This is what I believe.
Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,11:23) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,03:13) T8……you have a big problem, It doesn't say He (existed) past tense . You have changed the text, it says (EXISTING) Present tense, big difference. You are referring a past existence, but text refers a present or at the time of his ministry on earth. Your trying to make the text imply before he was born and it doesn't imply that.
Why do you and so many others want to see Jesus as different from ourself, whats the reason behind that I know you will say scripture says so, but i have yet to see any scripture that specifically says Jesus was a Preexistent Being of any Kind, nor any activity of His before His berth.
Give one good reason God would have done things that way, Just one good reason for it.
I can give you all kinds of reasons for Jesus Being Just an ordinary Man though. That God Perfected, i mean 100's of good reasons, but i have never ever heard (ONE) good reason for Him preexisting as a super being though.Can any come up with Just (ONE)>
Peace to you…………..gene
1) Divine nature/form of God
2) Emptied himself
3) Human nature
4) Humbled to the point of death
5) Raised from the dead
6) Glorified with the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
7) Seated in the highest place at the right hand of the Father.That is what certain scriptures say. I don't see why I shouldn't believe what those scriptures are saying. The world is full of people who don't want you to believe the scriptures. I meet such everyday.8
T8….. all seven of what you gave would benefit man not a super being who was already perfect, But it really would benefit Human kind to see an exact human become perfect. And be raised from the grave, it would give us all hope and an incentive to trust in God as He did, Because the possibility of us achieving that would be in the realm of all man kind.So you still haven't given any benefit to man kind by him being a preexistent super being that created the whole world has it. And thats my point why would God do that, something that doesn't really RELATE TO US. What does that show us then when we are no where able to be like Him then because he is so high above us.
peace to you …………….gene
Philippians 2:5-7
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.Gene Balthrop, gollamudi and SDN.
Enlighten us. If the above passage is applicable to Yeshua's earthly life, when and how precisely did/was He:
1. Exist in the form of God.
2. Empty Himself.
3. Take on the form of a bonservant.
4. Made in the likeness of men.Where is the scripture that supports your view that all this happaned during his natural life?
Blessings
IsQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,11:23) Hi 94,
So Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began
But did not actually exist when he had that glory?
Hi Nick:God has seen every thing from the beginning to the end. Like the below quoted scripture.
Quote Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Isa 1:18………. easy answer….. if you read the greek it reads that he was existing in nature for God , when, when he was on earth, why because he had the full measure of the Spirit in him, but he did not think to rob God, (HOW) by making Himself equal with him. But unlike man kind has done when they receive power from on High, they stoled the glory and took it to themselves, but Jesus did not do that He humbled Himself like a servant would. Remember when God spoke through Jesus mouth and said all who every came before me were liars and thieves, that was not Jesus talking but the Father first person speaking through Jesus' mouth. But Jesus did not do that, even though He was given power from the Father. Thats how i see it .
peace to you……!sa 1:18………………….gene
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