Henotheism, Polythiesm vrs Monotheism!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50)

I claim that he is the son of the living God and not the son of himself. I just repeat scripture and if anyone has a problem with what I repeat then they have a problem with scripture.

Yes but that's only half the story. Don't you also teach that Yeshua is “divine”. I believe so, here's a quote from you:

Quote

So what kind of being is Jesus? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he is a divine being. He is a being with God's nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but the the image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. From: https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-05.htm#john1

Are you telling us that there exists two divine beings, but only one is God? That God beget another being that has the very same nature but is not a god himself??? Gsilva72 is right, what you espouse does fly in the face of biblical monotheism, whether you acknowledge it or not.

“[Henotheism is] monotheism in principle and polytheism in fact” (Max Müller)

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50)

I claim that he is the son of the living God and not the son of himself. I just repeat scripture and if anyone has a problem with what I repeat then they have a problem with scripture. Quote You also claim that Jesus is a seperate “god” than the Father. Explain to me how that is not Polythiesm? Jesus is the son of the Father and the Father is the one true God. If you don't believe me then believe Jesus. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. The above statement is eternal life.

Hi T8,
This is where you are being attacked by the Trinitarians. You can not believe in monotheism saying Father is only the True God and some how including Jesus as some divine(god) being other than a human like Adam. Please read my post in 'How Jesus is not God?'. That's why I was telling you that you can not be in between, either you have to be a full pledged Trinitarian to prove all those claims or to be a real non-trinitarian who believes in only One God.
Please look into this.
Adam

[david]

Are the angels who are called “gods” in the Bible considered monotheists?

We have only one God, but recognize that there are many “mighty ones” (gods.)
Some, are mightier than others. But only one is Almighty, the only true God, in that sense, Jehovah.

[gollamudi]

Quote (david @ May 29 2008,04:16)

Are the angels who are called “gods” in the Bible considered monotheists?

Hi David,
What do you mean by asking such question?
Do you mean the angels who are mightier(gods) believe in monotheism?
Yes any created being in this universe has to believe in monotheism.There is only One God who created this universe. Why do you get such doubt? In this universe either angels who are called mighty(gods) or Jesus also called mighty (god) can not make so many Gods and so many creators.
One thing you have to remember that God is invisible therefore He manifests Himself through angels like He did in O.T and through Jesus like He did in N.T and also as He is doing now. But not one of these theophanies(appearances of God) equal to that One God who is invisible (1 Tim 6:16) whom no one has seen or can see.
Peace to you
Adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ May 29 2008,04:16)

Are the angels who are called “gods” in the Bible considered monotheists? We have only one God, but recognize that there are many “mighty ones” (gods.) Some, are mightier than others.  But only one is Almighty, the only true God, in that sense, Jehovah.

David

Why don’t you give us “One scripture” where YHWH or an Apostle or Prophet of the OT or NT calls an Angel of God, God?

Please spare me with scriptures like 2 Cor 4:4 that speaks of the opposite or enemies of God.

Paul tells us plainly…

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),   1 Cor 8:4, 5

Then while you are at it, explain these contradictions that you have by claiming there are other gods.

Deut 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
1 Kings 8:23
And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

This scripture blows the “Polytheistic and Henotheistic” view that there are other so called gods that existed in the Hebrew faith. For what they may have called gods or formed as gods are not gods at all.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:14
… Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

If you believe and obey the words of YHWH then you will follow his instructions here…

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Exod 23:13

And, I challenge you to show me one instance in OT or NT scriptures that ascribes the words “eloyhim” or “theos” to any supernatural being that has divine qualities or is like YHWH other than Yeshua.

I may be missing something but I haven’t found it yet.

Good to see you David!

[gsilva72]

Isaiah 44:6 : “….I am the first, and I am the last” Revelation 1:17 …”I am the first and the last: Both the Father and Jesus are claiming to be the first and the last. It's funny that Jesus is not God and is claiming the same thing the Father is claiming. “To be the FIRST AND THE LAST!”

[NickHassan]

Hi gs,
Are you the first or last son in your family?
Do not forget context.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ May 28 2008,21:42)

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50) I claim that he is the son of the living God and not the son of himself. I just repeat scripture and if anyone has a problem with what I repeat then they have a problem with scripture. Quote You also claim that Jesus is a seperate “god” than the Father. Explain to me how that is not Polythiesm? Jesus is the son of the Father and the Father is the one true God. If you don't believe me then believe Jesus. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. The above statement is eternal life. Hi T8, This is where you are being attacked by the Trinitarians. You can not believe in monotheism saying Father is only the True God and some how including Jesus as some divine(god) being other than a human like Adam. Please read my post in 'How Jesus is not God?'. That's why I was telling you that you can not be in between, either you have to be a full pledged Trinitarian to prove all those claims or to be a real non-trinitarian who believes in only One God. Please look into this. Adam

People can label me anyway they like, but I believe the following, and I don't need a man-made creed to interpret it. I just read it for what it says:

Philippians 2:5-9
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
     taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     and became obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name,

Take note of what it says:

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 28 2008,19:39)

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50) I claim that he is the son of the living God and not the son of himself. I just repeat scripture and if anyone has a problem with what I repeat then they have a problem with scripture. Yes but that's only half the story. Don't you also teach that Yeshua is “divine”. I believe so, here's a quote from you: Quote So what kind of being is Jesus? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he is a divine being. He is a being with God's nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but the the image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. From: https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-05.htm#john1 Are you telling us that there exists two divine beings, but only one is God? That God beget another being that has the very same nature but is not a god himself??? Gsilva72 is right, what you espouse does fly in the face of biblical monotheism, whether you acknowledge it or not. “[Henotheism is] monotheism in principle and polytheism in fact” (Max Müller)

There exists one God whom all thing originate and there exists his son and logos by whom all things came.

God has divine nature.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

God shares his nature so that even we can partake of his nature:

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

So how much more will Christ partake of God than us?

Jesus was in nature theos and became a man in nature and now he is back with the Majesty on High on his right hand side with the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

These things are written. If you cannot comprehend that which is written then you need to adapt. If you want to ignore these things, then you are free to do so. I for one am not twisting your arm.

I actually believe that you are quite capable of understanding this, but I believe that you do not accept it because you are putting your efforts into championing a cause that teaches otherwise and pride holds you back from changing and adapting.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 28 2008,19:39)

Are you telling us that there exists two divine beings, but only one is God? That God beget another being that has the very same nature but is not a god himself??? Gsilva72 is right, what you espouse does fly in the face of biblical monotheism, whether you acknowledge it or not.

I am telling you that God shares his nature with his sons.

So that actually seems like more than 2 partaking of divine nature because you need to add in all of God's sons.

And I am also telling you that there is one God.

Confused? Well there is no need to be.

How many Spirits are there?

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—

How many angels are there?

Revelation 5:11
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.

How many angels are spirits?

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Do men have spirits?

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

So how many spirits are there? Probably millions maybe billions.

So how can there be one Spirit and yet millions of spirits?

Easy if you understand the following scripture:

Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!

So God who is Spirit is the Father of all (good) spirits.
Similarly, the Father who has divine nature shares his nature with his sons.

There is no contradiction. It is quite easy to grasp. However, bias can blind us from seeing clearly. We should avoid that trap if we can.

[gsilva72]

To all Arians,

Face it. You believe in at least 2 persons of the Godhead! I don't care if your say Jesus is a demi God or is God himself! The fact is you believe in 2 person of the Godhead! You can dance around scriptures all day, but the fact is you believe in the Father and the Son, Right? Thats at least 2 persons!

gs???

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50)

So I ask yourself this? If we can partake of divine nature and yet not be YHWH, then why is it not possible that God's son also partake of divine nature when he is greater than us? Surely for the son of God, God would share all the more with his prototype son.

Hi t8

The problem that you have is there is no scripture that says Yeshua “Shared” the Divine Nature of God, but in fact says, “He was in very nature God”.

Can any created being make this claim? I think not! While a created being can share his divine nature, they can never make the claim that they are “in very nature, God”.

The Father is also in very nature God! Is he not?

Just as Jesus is not made In Gods image, but is in fact “the image of the invisible God”, which simply means God came in the flesh and visibly revealed himself to man. When you can show me one attribute that the Father has that the Son doesn’t, then that would mean that he is not the “Express image of the Father, God!

Jesus becomes the Image of the Invisible God when he who in very nature is God, makes himself visible by taking on human form as he did in the OT when he who is the only one who can reveal the Father makes himself known to man.

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50)

It is not my fault that certain people cannot understand these scriptures and I am not responsible for this lack of understanding.

Yes it is quite obvious that many do not understand your position, because while you say that there is only one God, you continue to affirm that there is other gods when scriptures clearly teach they are so-called gods. You have a few ambiguous scriptures that you refer to in support of your Henotheistic theology.

If your understanding of the nature of God is so right and perfect, then you have done what millions throughout history have failed to do and the Trinitarian vrs Arian controversy would be over with. I do not think so!

Yet, you make it clear that everyone else is wrong and only you can be right. You claim that you are letting scriptures interpret your theology, but it seems that you look over many scriptures that contradict you, for instance when you say that YHWH created all things through a lesser being than himself, when scriptures clearly teach that YHWH alone and by himself created all things.

[NickHassan]

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 30 2008,03:40)

To all Arians, Face it. You believe in at least 2 persons of the Godhead! I don't care if your say Jesus is a demi God or is God himself! The fact is you believe in 2 person of the Godhead! You can dance around scriptures all day, but the fact is you believe in the Father and the Son, Right? Thats at least 2 persons! gs???

Hi gs,
Members of a GODHEAD?
Look up the three different greek words translated in the KJV as GODHEAD and you will see they do not refer to any sort of multiperson God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2008,10:58)

Hi t8 The problem that you have is there is no scripture that says Yeshua “Shared” the Divine Nature of God, but in fact says, “He was in very nature God”.

My very point.

It says that he was in nature theos.

It doesn't say that he was the Theos.

So if we partake in divine nature then all the more for the prototype son.

There is no Trinity. Sons who share in divine nature are not YHWH. We may all partake or have divine nature, but we are all different. We may all partake of the Spirit, but we are all different.

The head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. We are different identities even if God shares his nature and gives his Spirit.

There is no need for the Polytheist labels. The scriptures teach this, so don't you think it is better to adapt to truth than accuse people of Polytheism because they believe the scripture when it says that he was in nature God and that we can share in divine nature.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 30 2008,03:40)

To all Arians, Face it. You believe in at least 2 persons of the Godhead! I don't care if your say Jesus is a demi God or is God himself! The fact is you believe in 2 person of the Godhead! You can dance around scriptures all day, but the fact is you believe in the Father and the Son, Right? Thats at least 2 persons! gs???

Think carefully about this.

Who worships 3 as God?

Isn't that suspicious? Three are God.

That wasn't the gospel/message/teaching of the first century.

Paul said that for us, there is one God, the Father.

I take it that you are not 'us' in that case?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2008,10:58)

The Father is also in very nature God! Is he not?

And identity.

Jesus came from God. He is of God. He is the image of God.

God is God. Simple.

What is the point in trying to move the head of man to be the same as the head of Christ?

It just causes confusion.

The head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. That is the way it is. You can't change that.

God has divine nature and he is the divine in identity.
God is the Spirit and he is spirit.

We may have the Spirit, but we are not the Spirit are we.

This is the difference between identity and nature. I have said all along that if you guys understood that difference, you wouldn't waste your time opposing it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2008,10:58)

Quote (t8 @ May 28 2008,18:50) It is not my fault that certain people cannot understand these scriptures and I am not responsible for this lack of understanding. Yes it is quite obvious that many do not understand your position, because while you say that there is only one God, you continue to affirm that there is other gods when scriptures clearly teach they are so-called gods. You have a few ambiguous scriptures that you refer to in support of your Henotheistic theology.

understand your position?

I said “understand these scriptures”.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Sons partake in divine nature.

It is true whether you dislike it or not.

Calling that Henotheistic theology is yoyu calling that scripture Henotheistic theology. Your argument lies not with me but the one(s) who wrote that scripture and others.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2008,10:58)

Yet, you make it clear that everyone else is wrong and only you can be right.

Wrong.

I quote and believe scriptures. You disagree with them. I cannot be blamed for that.

It is quite easy WJ. It is as simple as reading a scripture and then believing it.

I do not claim to be right, I claim to read scripture and accept it. I am a follower of Christ who is the truth. I am not the truth.

All men are wrong. It is up to us to let the truth change us and set us free.

[gollamudi]

Hi T8, sorry to bother you again. As I have already told you, you can not win them like that way. See how they are naming you ('arians'). I don't feel ashamed to caution you again that don't stand on two boats, you will fall in between. Don't be confused about the image or nature of God, even the first man was in the image and nature of God. You can not make Jesus some how a Godly being other than the Father. There is only One God not two or three, the invisible, immortal God reveal through His creation, it can be angel or Jesus. This doesn't make His (God's) creation as God. You can not make our brother Jesus the second Adam as some super being who was pre-existing prior to his birth. If so he can not be our model or example. You can not become like God in any way even through resurrection. We can only become like Jesus as he was also like us when he was on earth.
Please take care.
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

gollmudi….your example of one foot in two boats is right and a good example of those who say they don't believe in Jesus as a GOD himself but preach Jesus created everything. They stand between two persuasions which in truth causes confusion.

Adam , good point…….peace to you brother……………gene

[Author]

Posts