Henotheism, Polythiesm vrs Monotheism!

[Mr. Steve]

Kejonn;

We're on the same page. Trinitarians rely on the statement of Thomas a lot. A gentlemen that I've been going around in circles with on this issue brought this to my attention this weekend. My response was, Does Thomas identify him as the Father? Might he only be stating that Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father. The new testament is the exaltation of Jesus Christ and the building of his Church, which fulfills all the promises of God since the world began.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2007,11:44)

Henotheism, Polytheism vrs Monotheism! Part 1 The post below is taken from the Debates catogory “John 17:3” thread. t8 writes… Quote A brief history of time Chapter 1: WorshippingJesus wisdom and conduct WJ said that Ignatius was a disciple of John and his writings were significant and then used his writings to support his view. In reality he completely misunderstood Ignatius because Ignatius uses the word “theos” differently to him, and Ignatius said that those who say that Jesus is the God over all are ministers of Satan. He continues to promote this lie even in light of this. In his defense he said that the God over all was the Father and that Ignatius was simply stating that Jesus wasn't the Father. Well there you have it, in order for him not be seen (by Ignatius wisdom) as a minister of Satan, he conceded on something that he has been opposing since he came here. Had he not got himself into a corner I guess that he would still oppose the truth that the Father is the God over all and not the son. So perhaps he needs to stop the pretense and stubbornness. We can all see clearly the holes in his argument. It is of no profit for him to continue in this manner. Let's recap: He first rejects what Jesus, Paul, and Peter taught regarding the Father being the only true God and Jesus being the true son of the true God. He then rejects Ignatius teachings of whom he says is significant because he was a disciple of John. And now he continues to promote his faulty argument despite these findings. What kind of man hears such words from scripture and from a disciple of John (who he says is significant) and continues right on with his crusade? He respects Ignatius and Ignatius calls him a Minister of Satan and then he continues on as if nothing happened. If he ignores them, then what chance does anyone here have of showing him the truth? https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=780 I thought that I would start a new thread since I couldnt find any thread dealing with the subject The above post of t8s is a desperate attempt to defend his Henotheistic view and Heavennet. For those who have been on this sight for some time and have seen his post and the methods he uses in defending his proposed truth, one thing stands out loud and clear. T8 begins to attack the person and alluding to them being ministers of satan or being deceived by the whore and her doctrines when he is backed into a corner and has no scriptural defense or response for the truth that stares him in the face. I suppose this is natural for a man who is so steeped in his belief and feels he is called of God as a prophet, and that he has written the only truth by creating a sight like this. Eletism is the word that comes to mind. Especially in light of his defiance against the over 600 scholars that have brought us the credible english versions that we have on Bible Gateway and Blueletter.com. Though t8 has no Greek or Hebrew credentials for mis-interpreting scriptures like John 1:1, he still accuses the translators of bias in their translation when he has no proof of such. This kind of proud opposition to the scriptures is a dangerous thing, especially when scriptures themselves claim that they are not of any “Private” interpretation. 2 Pet 1: 19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. In his defense though he seems to really believe the deceptions that he believes! It’s a historical fact that Polytheism, Arainism, Henotheism, Unitarianism, were serious enemys against the early true church and our fathers in the faith. T8 says I misunderstand Ignatius a disciple of John the beloved, who only echoes Johns words in John 1:1 and 20:28, (Isa 6:1-5 and Jn 12:37-42) and (Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37). Here is some quotes of t8s, lets see if we can make out what he means… T8 says… Quote In reality he (WJ) completely misunderstood Ignatius because Ignatius uses the word “theos” differently to him, t8, in what sense is he using the word “differently”? Is he saying Jesus is a “Smaller god”, or a “divine being”, or an “Angel”, or a “Prophet”, or a “King”, or a “Judge”, or a “Man”, or an “Apostle”? Of course t8 would say Jesus is “The Son of God”. Yet , t8 you do not tell us what that means. We are sons of God, but are we “The express image of the invisible God”? Do you mean to say Jesus is just a man in every way like us? What does “Only Monogenes Son of God” mean? Please tell us.For it is unclear what you mean when you allude to Jn 10:24-36 when a Trinitarian quotes scrptures or an early Father calling Jesus God. Are you saying that Jesus is god like men and angels? Is he classified as being one of the “Created”? If not then whats the point of using the scripture to support your belief that there are other gods, which by the way is in direct opposition to the Hebrew scriptures and the Monotheistic view of the Hebrews and the Apostles like Paul who says there is only “One True God”, and all other so called gods are not gods at all. So obviously t8 the view you try to extrapolate from Jesus quote of the Psalmist leaves you with a contradiction. Here is another example of your evasive teaching… CB quoted… Quote Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. T8s response was… Quote Why don't you also quote the following: Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)! Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' John 10:34-36 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? You see the very use of the word 'elohim' and 'theos' doesn't prove that it is the God overall who is being spoken of. In fact in the above verses, it is being us ed in reference to sons/angels. Again t8, can you clarify what you mean? Should Thomas had said…”My Lord and my god”, or “My Lord and my son”, or “My Lord and my angel, or “My Lord and my divine”? You seem to always allude to there being “other gods”, or “other lords”, or “other divine beings” when it is convenient. But you do it without explanation as to what you mean. The point is if you are trying to say that the word “Theos” can mean divine or god in the NT then you have to give us a NT example of this word being used or ascribed to a living being or creature other than the obvious opposites of God. Which you have failed to do. The word “Theos” is only found ascribed to the Father and the Son as true God. You defy the translators and would have us interpret scriptures like Heb 1:8 as… But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, (O divine, or O god) is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Every major translation has this verse as… But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. You accuse Trinitarians of being proud and not willing to accept truth, yet your defiance of the translations shows your own arrogance against the scriptures and against the early Fathers of the faith. Whats worse is you take isolated text from the early Fathers and twist them to support your view. For example you have posted quotes from Justin Martyr claiming he is against Trinitarians, yet the following debate with Trypho, a Jew he says… Chapter LXIII.-It is Proved that This God Was Incarnate. And Trypho said, “This point has been proved to me forcibly, and by many arguments, my friend. It remains, then, to prove that He submitted to become man by the Virgin, according to the will of His Father; and to be crucified, and to die. Prove also clearly, that after this He rose again and ascended to heaven.” I answered, “This, too, has been already demonstrated by me in the previously quoted words of the prophecies, my friends; which, by recalling and expounding for your sakes, I shall endeavour to lead you to agree with me also about this matter. The passage, then, which Isaiah records, `Who shall declare His generation? for His life is taken away from the earth, '232 -does it not appear to you to refer to One who, not having descent from men, was said to be delivered over to death by God for the transgressions of the people?-of whose blood, Moses (as I mentioned before), when speaking in parable, said, that He would wash His garments in the blood of the grape; since His blood did not spring from the seed of man, but from the will of God. And then, what is said by David, `In the splendours of Thy holiness have I begotten Thee from the womb, before the morning star.233 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek, '234 -does this not declare to you235 that [He was] from of old,236 and that the God and Father of all things intended Him to be begotten by a human womb? And speaking in other words, which also have been already quoted, [he says]: `Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of rectitude is the sceptre of Thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hast hated iniquity: therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows. [He hath anointed Thee] with myrrh, and oil, and cassia from Thy garments, from the ivory palaces, whereby they made Thee glad. Kings' daughters are in Thy honour. The queen stood at Thy right hand, clad in garments embroidered with gold.237 Hearken, O daughter, and behold, and incline thine ear, and forget thy people and the house of thy father; and the King shall desire thy beauty: because he is thy Lord, and thou shalt worship Him.'238 Therefore these words testify explicitly that He is witnessed to by Him who established these things,239 as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. Moreover, that the word of God speaks to those who believe in Him as being one soul, and one synagogue, and one church, as to a daughter; that it thus addresses the church which has sprung from His name and partakes of His name (for we are all called Christians), is distinctly proclaimed in like manner in the following words, which teach us also to forget [our] old ancestral customs, when they speak thus:240 `Hearken, O daughter, and behold, and incline thine ear; forget thy people and the house of thy father, and the King shall desire thy beauty: because He is thy Lord, and thou shalt worship Him.' “ http://biblefacts.org/ecf/vol1/anf01-48.htm#P4567_960539 So t8, unless you believe that Justin as well as Ignatius and others were polytheist and believe that we can worship other beings or gods, then you have a problem. You see t8 we can continue the debate about the forefathers if you would like, and you will see contrary to your Henotheistc belief, that the forefathers were not Polytheist nor Henotheist, they did not believe in the existence of any true God (Theos) but One. Continued…

Brilliant!! Very well done

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 25 2007,06:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2007,11:44) Henotheism, Polytheism vrs Monotheism! Part 1 The post below is taken from the Debates catogory “John 17:3” thread. t8 writes… Quote A brief history of time Chapter 1: WorshippingJesus wisdom and conduct WJ said that Ignatius was a disciple of John and his writings were significant and then used his writings to support his view. In reality he completely misunderstood Ignatius because Ignatius uses the word “theos” differently to him, and Ignatius said that those who say that Jesus is the God over all are ministers of Satan. He continues to promote this lie even in light of this. In his defense he said that the God over all was the Father and that Ignatius was simply stating that Jesus wasn't the Father. Well there you have it, in order for him not be seen (by Ignatius wisdom) as a minister of Satan, he conceded on something that he has been opposing since he came here. Had he not got himself into a corner I guess that he would still oppose the truth that the Father is the God over all and not the son. So perhaps he needs to stop the pretense and stubbornness. We can all see clearly the holes in his argument. It is of no profit for him to continue in this manner. Let's recap: He first rejects what Jesus, Paul, and Peter taught regarding the Father being the only true God and Jesus being the true son of the true God. He then rejects Ignatius teachings of whom he says is significant because he was a disciple of John. And now he continues to promote his faulty argument despite these findings. What kind of man hears such words from scripture and from a disciple of John (who he says is significant) and continues right on with his crusade? He respects Ignatius and Ignatius calls him a Minister of Satan and then he continues on as if nothing happened. If he ignores them, then what chance does anyone here have of showing him the truth? https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=780 I thought that I would start a new thread since I couldnt find any thread dealing with the subject The above post of t8s is a desperate attempt to defend his Henotheistic view and Heavennet. For those who have been on this sight for some time and have seen his post and the methods he uses in defending his proposed truth, one thing stands out loud and clear. T8 begins to attack the person and alluding to them being ministers of satan or being deceived by the whore and her doctrines when he is backed into a corner and has no scriptural defense or response for the truth that stares him in the face. I suppose this is natural for a man who is so steeped in his belief and feels he is called of God as a prophet, and that he has written the only truth by creating a sight like this. Eletism is the word that comes to mind. Especially in light of his defiance against the over 600 scholars that have brought us the credible english versions that we have on Bible Gateway and Blueletter.com. Though t8 has no Greek or Hebrew credentials for mis-interpreting scriptures like John 1:1, he still accuses the translators of bias in their translation when he has no proof of such. This kind of proud opposition to the scriptures is a dangerous thing, especially when scriptures themselves claim that they are not of any “Private” interpretation. 2 Pet 1: 19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. In his defense though he seems to really believe the deceptions that he believes! It’s a historical fact that Polytheism, Arainism, Henotheism, Unitarianism, were serious enemys against the early true church and our fathers in the faith. T8 says I misunderstand Ignatius a disciple of John the beloved, who only echoes Johns words in John 1:1 and 20:28, (Isa 6:1-5 and Jn 12:37-42) and (Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37). Here is some quotes of t8s, lets see if we can make out what he means… T8 says… Quote In reality he (WJ) completely misunderstood Ignatius because Ignatius uses the word “theos” differently to him, t8, in what sense is he using the word “differently”? Is he saying Jesus is a “Smaller god”, or  a “divine being”, or an “Angel”, or a “Prophet”, or a “King”, or a “Judge”, or a “Man”, or an “Apostle”? Of course t8 would say Jesus is “The Son of God”. Yet , t8 you do not tell us what that means. We are sons of God, but are we “The express image of the invisible God”? Do you mean to say Jesus is just a man in every way like us? What does “Only Monogenes Son of God” mean? Please tell us.For it is unclear what you mean when you allude to Jn 10:24-36 when a Trinitarian quotes scrptures or an early Father calling Jesus God. Are you saying that Jesus is god like men and angels? Is he classified as being one of the “Created”? If not then whats the point of using the scripture to support your belief that there are other gods, which by the way is in direct opposition to the Hebrew scriptures and the Monotheistic view of the Hebrews and the Apostles like Paul who says there is only “One True God”, and all other so called gods are not gods at all. So obviously t8 the view you try to extrapolate  from  Jesus quote of the Psalmist leaves you with a contradiction. Here is another example of your evasive teaching… CB quoted… Quote Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. T8s response was… Quote Why don't you also quote the following: Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)! Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' John 10:34-36 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy be cause I said, 'I am God's Son'? You see the very use of the word 'elohim' and 'theos' doesn't prove that it is the God overall who is being spoken of. In fact in the above verses, it is being used in reference to sons/angels. Again t8, can you clarify what you mean? Should Thomas had said…”My Lord and my god”, or “My Lord and my son”, or “My Lord and my angel, or “My Lord and my divine”? You seem to always allude to there being “other gods”, or “other lords”, or “other divine beings” when it is convenient. But you do it without explanation as to what you mean. The point is if you are trying to say that the word “Theos” can mean divine or god in the NT then you have to give us a NT example of this word being used or ascribed to a living being or creature other than the obvious opposites of God. Which you have failed to do. The word “Theos” is only found ascribed to the Father and the Son as true God. You defy the translators and would have us interpret scriptures like Heb 1:8 as… But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, (O divine, or O god) is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Every major translation has this verse as… But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. You accuse Trinitarians of being proud and not willing to accept truth, yet your defiance of the translations shows your own arrogance against the scriptures and against the early Fathers of the faith. Whats worse is you take isolated text from the early Fathers and twist them to support your view. For example you have posted quotes from Justin Martyr claiming he is against Trinitarians, yet the following debate with Trypho, a Jew he says… Chapter LXIII.-It is Proved that This God Was Incarnate. And Trypho said, “This point has been proved to me forcibly, and by many arguments, my friend. It remains, then, to prove that He submitted to become man by the Virgin, according to the will of His Father; and to be crucified, and to die. Prove also clearly, that after this He rose again and ascended to heaven.” I answered, “This, too, has been already demonstrated by me in the previously quoted words of the prophecies, my friends; which, by recalling and expounding for your sakes, I shall endeavour to lead you to agree with me also about this matter. The passage, then, which Isaiah records, `Who shall declare His generation? for His life is taken away from the earth, '232 -does it not appear to you to refer to One who, not having descent from men, was said to be delivered over to death by God for the transgressions of the people?-of whose blood, Moses (as I mentioned before), when speaking in parable, said, that He would wash His garments in the blood of the grape; since His blood did not spring from the seed of man, but from the will of God. And then, what is said by David, `In the splendours of Thy holiness have I begotten Thee from the womb, before the morning star.233 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek, '234 -does this not declare to you235 that [He was] from of old,236 and that the God and Father of all things intended Him to be begotten by a human womb? And speaking in other words, which also have been already quoted, [he says]: `Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of rectitude is the sceptre of Thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hast hated iniquity: therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows. [He hath anointed Thee] with myrrh, and oil, and cassia from Thy garments, from the ivory palaces, whereby they made Thee glad. Kings' daughters are in Thy honour. The queen stood at Thy right hand, clad in garments embroidered with gold.237 Hearken, O daughter, and behold, and incline thine ear, and forget thy people and the house of thy father; and the King shall desire thy beauty: because he is thy Lord, and thou shalt worship Him.'238 Therefore these words testify explicitly that He is witnessed to by Him who established these things,239 as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. Moreover, that the word of God speaks to those who believe in Him as being one soul, and one synagogue, and one church, as to a daughter; that it thus addresses the church which has sprung from His name and partakes of His name (for we are all called Christians), is distinctly proclaimed in like manner in the following words, which teach us also to forget [our] old ancestral customs, when they speak thus:240 `Hearken, O daughter, and behold, and incline thine ear; forget thy people and the house of thy father, and the King shall desire thy beauty: because He is thy Lord, and thou shalt worship Him.' “ http://biblefacts.org/ecf/vol1/anf01-48.htm#P4567_960539 So t8, unless you believe that Justin as well as Ignatius and others were polytheist and believe that we can worship other beings or gods, then you have a problem. You see t8 we can continue the debate about the forefathers if you would like, and you will see contrary to your Henotheistc belief, that the forefathers were not Polytheist nor Henotheist, they did not believe in the existence of any true God (Theos) but One. Continued… Brilliant!! Very well done

epistemaniac

Thanks my friend!

Always good to hear from you, and always enjoy your post!

Blessings  

[Mr. Steve]

Kejonn;

I like your example of the three presidents. Trinitarians reason that there appears to be a mutual honor among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. My question is where does the Father worship the Son in scripture or keep the Son's commandments? Then they inject their reasoning that Christ spoke in context of being the Messiah. When the Father spoke to Abraham in the old testament many times he said who he was. Paul said that Christ was the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham in whom he would multiply his seed. Christ is that Seed. God knows how to do a job himself. He caused the flood in Genesis. He delivered Israel from the Egyptians overturning the chariots in the Red Sea. The only statement the Father makes in the New Testament is this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. So to say that Christ is the Father, (which is really what their saying when they call Christ God or Jehovah) is to contradict what the Father said himself and what Christ said himself and all the apostles. Then they have the brass to say I am not accepting what the scriptures say. Excuse me! How so?

Take Care

Steven

[Cult Buster]

Mr Steve

Quote

Kejonn; We're on the same page.  Trinitarians rely on the statement of Thomas a lot.

Mr Steve. The problem for you is that you cannot explain Thomas's statement of faith.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

And all the rest of these verses

Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Compare
Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Compare
Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD (Jehovah) God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM   hath sent me unto you.

Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Compare
Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Compare
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
With
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.
HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}
REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}
MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}
GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God. . .
+ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

*TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
+ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

*ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord (Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
*LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Mat 1:21  And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins

*ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Psa 50:6  And the heavens shall declare his righteousness; For God is judge himself. Selah
Psa 7:8  The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen kneeling and praying to Jesus)

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Joh 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
2Ti 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of Da
vid was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ
                                                               

Rom 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

[kejonn]

CB,

We can explain Thomas fine, but you can not explain the statement made by the very Son of God himself earlier in that very same chapter:

Jhn 20:17   Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “

As a CHRISTian, I am to be CHRISTlike. If CHRIST said the Father is his God AND our God, why would you take Thomas' statement and override the words of the Savior? Are your a CHRISTian, or a Thomasian? Follow the Savior, do not follow man. Thomas was no better than you or I. Thomas did not die on a tree to set you free.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kejonn …..> thats the problem with trinitarians they can explain Jesus' own words with reguards to the Father and Himself. And if they can't understand the simple things why waste your time on the complex things. There is only a few who truly understand at this time and they are not the massive Catholic and Protestant trinitarian organizations, Their own history testifices againt them. They murder so many true Saints their whole history is rittled with the true Saints of God. And we can be thank full that we live in a nation where the State and Religion are seperated. If that ever falls then the whore and her daughters will take control of our Goverment. The whore will be in control of the beast again and her wound will be heald, that wound was what seperated the Whore from the government and a time could come when it could all happen again…..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Kejonn……> your latest understanding about John 1:1- is right John was talking about God The Father not Jesus as the (WORD) But the Word is an atribute of the FAther Himself. peace brother……gene

[Cult Buster]

Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 01 2007,09:46)

CB, We can explain Thomas fine, but you can not explain the statement made by the very Son of God himself earlier in that very same chapter: Jhn 20:17   Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “ As a CHRISTian, I am to be CHRISTlike. If CHRIST said the Father is his God AND our God, why would you take Thomas' statement and override the words of the Savior? Are your a CHRISTian, or a Thomasian? Follow the Savior, do not follow man. Thomas was no better than you or I. Thomas did not die on a tree to set you free.

Kejonn. That statement was made in the context of the incarnation while Christ was living as a man relying on God for power. So you are making a weak argument. By ignoring the incarnation, you pervert the scriptures.

TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ
                                                                     

2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.  

[Cult Buster]

.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
                                                                                     

2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

[Proclaimer]

Jhn 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' “

Quote (Cult Buster @ Sep. 10 2007,13:47)

Kejonn. That statement was made in the context of the incarnation while Christ was living as a man relying on God for power. So you are making a weak argument. By ignoring the incarnation, you pervert the scriptures.

Explain this then:

Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

The above verse is not from a Jesus who was a man on earth, but a glorified Lord seated at the right hand of the majesty on high.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Sep. 10 2007,13:50)

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

You see, God was in Christ. Not God was Christ as you teach CultB.

This is the truth.

[Mr. Steve]

CB;

Thanks much for the cut and paste of the scriptures. You state we can't explain them. Can you?

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All!

In their attempt to explain away the NT scriptures and Apostles calling Yeshua “True God”, t8 as well as others on this sight insist that there is more than “One True God”, and that there are other smaller true gods.

This is blatant Polytheism or Henotheism at best, and is contrary to the Hebrew scriptures!

The following shows many scriptures to prove this so. Problem is one has to reconcile these with the NT proofs that Yeshua is God or resort to denying the scriptures, live with contradictions, or accuse the translators of the scriptures of Trinitarian bias. All of these are a desperate attempts to defend and hold on to man made doctrines that appose the scriptures and to steal away the Honour of Yeshua being in every way like his Father. God!!!

Henotheism or Polytheism vrs Monotheism Part 2

Henotheism!

(Greek εἷς θεός heis theos “one god”) is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean devotion to a single “God” while accepting the existence of other gods. Müller stated that henotheism means “monotheism in principle and polytheism in fact.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

Monotheism
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/monotheism

Polytheism
: belief in or worship of more than one god
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/polytheism

Since t8 says he believes in one “True God”, yet confesses there is other  “true gods”, (angels, men, kings rulers etc.) this means he is a Henotheist. Now he may not want to have a label like he labels everyone else, nevertheless, he is a Henotheist. Unless t8 you can concede that there is no other so called gods and that Jesus is simply a man and not god in any sense therefore denying scriptures that he is.

The Hebrew Jew believed that there is no God but one, as shown in the following scriptures…

Deut 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
1 Kings 8:23
And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

t8 says…

Quote

In reality he completely misunderstood Ignatius because Ignatius uses the word “theos” differently to him…

And…

Quote

I personally think that many including translators don't understand that 'theos' and 'elohim' are not words used exclusively for the Almighty, but are also used in reference to men and angels.

Note: he says, “Even the translators “dont” understand”!

Again showing his arrogance against the translators and the scriptures when he has no credentials at all for translating the scriptures.

While t8 believes that Jesus pre-existed in some “sense” as god, “Theos” or “Elohim”, (for he says Ignatius believed Jesus was god in a different sense than I do), yet that would contradict what the above scriptures say.

There is no god with me.
there is no God like thee.

How do you explain this t8?

Is Jesus not like the Father? Was Jesus not with him?

Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

This scripture blows the “Polytheistic and Henotheistic” view that there are other so called gods that existed in the Hebrew faith. For what they may have called gods or formed as gods are not gods at all.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:14
… Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

So t8, based on the above scriptures do you insist that there is any gods in any sense?

Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

T8, you have a huge hole in your theology.

For you that there was someone beside the Father, who is in a sense god or divine yet the scriptures says there is “None Beside him”, and “none like him”.

You also claim that God created all things through this other being (which you have yet to classify what he is), called Jesus, when the Hebrew scriptures are clear that there is no other agent beside himself that created all things.

Look and see once again…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

And yet we read by a strict Monotheistic Jew…

John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.

As clear as the nose on ones face!  

Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

Yes it is very pridefull to hold on to a belief that says “God” made all things through a “lessor being” “or a “smaller god', or “a god in some sense”?,  than himself when scriptures are clear that “by himself”, “alone” he made all things!

If t8 ignores these truths then how can anyone put trust in any of his writings here?

Truly to reconcile all scriptures, there is only one view that stands the test of time and that is the Trinitarian view.

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…..> slow down and read what you quote, Isa 44:24..> Thus says the (Lord), your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb; I and the (Lord) who makes all things, who stretched out the Heavens all (ALONE) who spreads abroad the earth by (MYSELF). While the (LORD) is a GOD He also gave many other Gods Look up the the word Eloyhim and see how many places that word is used. The Old Testement LORD is (He Exists) and if you add the word Eloyhim to it it come out (HE EXIST WITH POWERS) All powers given by The (Lord) are considered Gods.

So tell us was Jesus talking to Himself when He prayed ,” our Father who art (in Heaven)” did He mean Himself did he have a split personality thinking at one time He was the Father and another He was a (SON) of (MAN)>

I will give you yes, it is (PRIDEFULL) to say (LORD) made all things through a lessor being and it's is also (PRIDEFULL) to say the Man Jesus created it Himself also.
when he plainly shows that the Father and Him are two (Different) Beings.

Why is every thing with you trinitarians some kind of Mystery and nothing straight forward and logical. iT'S BECAUSE MYSTERY RELIGION IS FROM THE GREEKS AND EGYPTIANS and has nothing to do with (true Christianity)

IMO……….gene

[Cato]

A lot depends on how we define God and god.  While most here believe in the supremecy and omnipotence of God, there is dispute over whether there are indeed gods (non-capitalized); if a god is  “a supernatural being, worshipped as the controller of some aspect of life or as the personification of some force”, then this brings up possibilities of whether there are entities inferior to God but having the attributes of a god?   It seems clear in the Bible there are supernatural beings that represent forces of the cosmos Rev 6:4 “Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other”, who while clearly inferior to the Godhead seem divine in nature and very powerful when compared to humanity.  So what is the difference between Titan, Archdevil, Archangel, Apocalyptic Horseman or pagan god?  Perhaps the true point of contention with the title god is simply that part of the definition which conotes worship?

Another point to think about is this:
Exodus 15:11
“Who among the gods is like you, O LORD ?”
Exodus 18:11
“Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods”
Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me.”
Why is it not, you shall have no other gods period, or there are no other gods?  This implies that there may indeed be gods of a type which would lend credence to Henotheism would it not?

[GeneBalthrop]

Cato…..You are right, the word God by it self does not mean Deity, at all. So Jesus could be a mighty God and still not be a Deity and is not the LORD GOD, who is the ONLY DEITY.

IMO……gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cato @ May 23 2008,02:27)

A lot depends on how we define God and god.  While most here believe in the supremecy and omnipotence of God, there is dispute over whether there are indeed gods (non-capitalized); if a god is  “a supernatural being, worshipped as the controller of some aspect of life or as the personification of some force”, then this brings up possibilities of whether there are entities inferior to God but having the attributes of a god?   It seems clear in the Bible there are supernatural beings that represent forces of the cosmos Rev 6:4 “Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other”, who while clearly inferior to the Godhead seem divine in nature and very powerful when compared to humanity.  So what is the difference between Titan, Archdevil, Archangel, Apocalyptic Horseman or pagan god?  Perhaps the true point of contention with the title god is simply that part of the definition which conotes worship? Another point to think about is this: Exodus 15:11 “Who among the gods is like you, O LORD ?” Exodus 18:11 “Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods” Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.”

Hi Cato!

I challenge you to show me one instance in OT or NT scriptures that ascribes the words “eloyhim” or “theos” to any supernatural being that has divine qualitys or is like YHWH other than Yeshua.

I may be missing something but I havnt found it yet.

Quote (Cato @ May 23 2008,02:27)

Why is it not, you shall have no other gods period, or there are no other gods?  This implies that there may indeed be gods of a type which would lend credence to Henotheism would it not?

The answer is no.

Monotheism
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God
Source

Henotheism!

(Greek εἷς θεός heis theos “one god”) is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean devotion to a single “God” while accepting the existence of other gods. Müller stated that henotheism means “monotheism in principle and polytheism in fact.”
Source

The Hebrews were strict Monotheist. Henotheism is basically Polytheism in fact.

There is only “One True God” in the Hebrew or Christian faith. Henotheism implies that there are other “true gods”.
However, Paul clearly states that these are man-made gods or idols and are not gods at all.

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 1 Cor 8:4, 5

The Hebrew Scriptures tell us in many places not to have any other gods before us and not to even mention their names.

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Exod 23:13

The Henotheist and Unitarians must accept the concept that there are other “true gods” because this way they can make of none effect the scriptures that declare Jesus is “True God”.

The OT and NT scriptures are very clear in this matter.

Here are just a few from the OT.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isa 44:8

For *all* the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.  Pss 96:5

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:10

Henotheist appeal to scriptures like John 10:34 where Yeshua was quoting Psalms 97 in response to their reaction saying he was making himself “Equal to God” by claiming he was the “Son of God”. Psalm 97 is about evil and wicked rulers and judges in which YHWH was making a derogatory statement, or else YHWH was contradicting himself in the scriptures above.

This is what they base their Polytheistic belief on, 2 Scriptures.

Here is a challenge for the Henotheist and the Unitarians.

Find me one place in the NT scriptures where an Angel of God, Saint, Apostle, follower of Christ is referred to as “Theos”.
Find me one place in NT scripture where an Angel of God, Saint, Apostle, follower of Christ calls any being other than Yeshua, God except the obvious opposites of God, which are not gods at all.

Is there one example in NT scriptures of any being that is of God called God other than Yeshua?

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Exod 23:13

The Trinitarian view is the only view that reconciles all the scriptural data that we have.

IMO

[Cato]

Gen 1:26 “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…””
Our? why not my?

Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”
One of us, why not like me?

Deu 10:17, Psa 136:2, Dan 2:47, Dan 11:36  all quote God of gods.  
Why if there are no gods?

Psa 82:1 God presides in the great assembly;
      he gives judgment among the “gods”:
Seems pretty clear here.

Gen 31:53  May the God of Abraham and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge between us.”
Why not the God of Abraham and Nahor?

Judges 11:23  “Now since the LORD, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess.

This seems to imply that “your god” Chemosh is more then imaginary does it not?

Psa 89:6 For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD ?
      Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings?
In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;
      he is more awesome than all who surround him

Heavenly beings, holy ones?

Sounds like that there are other divine beings or for lack of a better word gods.

[GeneBalthrop]

cato……Your right…..though there be many gods but to us and Jesus there is ONLY (ONE) TRUE GOD>Who is the God of Gods, “Hear “O” Israel the LORD our
God is (ONE) LORD> Jesus quoted that also.

peace to you and yours………..gene

[Author]

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