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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,03:31) gollamudi……….you find no straight answer if they cant really explain it they simple pull out the mystery card. What you said earlier was right they stand with their feet in two different boats and they will only fall between them. It never stops to amaze me how simple it is to understand and how few can see it. But it is inspiring when i read the words of those who do. But I will warn you to not get to mixed up in there debates its simple a wast of time, ” unless the Lord shall build the House the wherry builders, build in vain”.
But i am thankful there are some who God has granted to see and understand, or i would not even wast my time here.
peace to you and yours……………..gene
Thank you brother Gene,
I agree with you. I also see there is lot of confusion here in understanding God's word. Either one has to agree with Trinitarianism and believe everything as it is like WJ or one has to agree with monotheism to believe in only one God who is the creator and above all, like you, Mandy and few in this forum believe. Other than these two compartments I see there is utter failure and confusion in interpretation of scriptures.
Hope all of us come to the right knowledge of scriptures
AdamQuote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,13:40) Philippians 2:5-7
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.Gene Balthrop, gollamudi and SDN.
Enlighten us. If the above passage is applicable to Yeshua's earthly life, when and how precisely did/was He:
1. Exist in the form of God.
2. Empty Himself.
3. Take on the form of a bonservant.
4. Made in the likeness of men.Where is the scripture that supports your view that all this happaned during his natural life?
Blessings
Is
Hi Brother Isaiah:We know that Paul's purpose in this scripture is to teach humility to the church using the life that our Lord Jesus lived as an example.
He existed in the form of God' as God's Son and His Christ and the below listed scripture is an example:
Quote Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)The other questions that you ask I believe are answered in the following scripture:
Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,14:03) Isa 1:18………. easy answer….. if you read the greek it reads that he was existing in nature for God ,
Huparcho – From G5259 and G756; to begin under (quietly), that is, come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxilliary to principal verb): – after behave, live. (Strong’s Concordance).Being (uparxwn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of uparxw. In the form of God (en morfh qeou). Morfh means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ. [A T Robertso, NT Word Pictures]
“not the common verb for being (eimi). Huparcho stresses the essence of a person's nature – the continuous state or condition of something” (cf. William Barclay, The Letters to the Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians [Philadelphia: Westminster].
“Existed” – past tense, present active. A continuous state of existing.
Quote when he was on earth,
You don't get that from the Greek Gene. It's purely your inference.Quote why because he had the full measure of the Spirit in him,
There is a problem looming on the horizon for you here Gene, do you see it??Quote but he did not think to rob God, (HOW) by making Himself equal with him.
That interpretation does violence to the whole context of the passage, which is about humility. A decision to not strive for equality with YHWH when you do not have it is not humility – it's plain common sense and self-preservation!! That's just one problems with this interpretation.Quote But unlike man kind has done when they receive power from on High, they stoled the glory and took it to themselves, but Jesus did not do that He humbled Himself like a servant would.
What about Daniel or Joseph?Quote Remember when God spoke through Jesus mouth and said all who every came before me were liars and thieves, that was not Jesus talking but the Father first person speaking through Jesus' mouth.
Really? Prove it.Quote But Jesus did not do that, even though He was given power from the Father. Thats how i see it . peace to you……!sa 1:18………………….gene
Gene, in case you can't see the two-fold dilemma this theory invokes I'll try to explain it to you plainly:- If Yeshua's “existing in the form of God” was a function of Him being filled with the Spirit of God, all Spirit-filled believers must likewise be existing in the form of God. Thus implying polytheism. Moreover the 'emptying' Paul spoke of in vs 7 immediately proceeded that which he iterated in vs 6. So Gene, it begs the question when did Yeshua empty Himself of the Spirit of God?? Also, none of this explains how Yeshua was “made in the likeness of men”. When was He ever not in that form?? It's confusion on top of confusion. None of it makes any senses Gene, can't you see this? You're just trying to force the text to concur with you eroneous theology, but it simply will not do that Gene.
Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,14:33) The other questions that you ask I believe are answered in the following scripture: Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;God Bless
Brother SDN,
It doesn't tell me what He emptied Himself of, how/when He took on the form of a bondservant, or how/when He found in the likeness of man. Think of it this way – when, in Yeshua's life, was He ever not a bondservant or in the likeness of man?? According to your current understanding wasn't He born this way? What did He empty Himself of and when?? I don't see any allusion to #2,3 & 4 in the Hebrews passage you quoted.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,14:43) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2008,14:33) The other questions that you ask I believe are answered in the following scripture: Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;God Bless
Brother SDN,
It doesn't tell me what He emptied Himself of, how/when He took on the form of a bondservant, or how/when He found in the likeness of man. Think of it this way – when, in Yeshua's life, was He ever not a bondservant or in the likeness of man?? According to your current understanding wasn't He born this way? What did He empty Himself of and when?? I don't see any allusion to #2,3 & 4 in the Hebrews passage you quoted.
Hi Bro. Isaiah:The Scripture states: “THOUGH HE WERE A SON”, yet he learned obedience…
The scripture in Phil. states that he made himself of no reputation. He did not let his position of authority go to his head but he emptied himself of any tendency to exalt himself because of his position as God's Christ.
Furthermore, if the Apostle Paul was going to use the example of Jesus life to teach the church humility, and he is referring to a life that Jesus lived in the form of God other than the life that he lived in the flesh on earth, how would the church be able to see the example that he has set for them?
Yes, he was born into this world as a baby just as you and I, a man child with one big difference “he was and is God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ”. But he chose to become in our likeness in every way being tempted in every way that we are tempted yet without sin, and so this is where he became in the likeness of any ordinary man, and this is what makes him so awesome because he did it just for plain old sinners like you and me.
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,13:26) So you still haven't given any benefit to man kind by him being a preexistent super being that created the whole world has it. And thats my point why would God do that, something that doesn't really RELATE TO US. What does that show us then when we are no where able to be like Him then because he is so high above us.
In fact I beg to differ because a being that emptied himself to become like us in every way, means that he has become like us in every way. In other words any divine nature or glory that was his was replaced by humility, flesh, and even death. Now he is so high above us, but that is where we will be one day. So let us have faith and believe in the promises of God, and not drag his son down to our level and keep him there. We will be raised up incorruptible, so he came down to our level and was raised as we will be raised. The promise is being raised, not to stay as lowly fleshly men, but to be sons of God.So if someone so high can come down so low and powerless and rely totally on the Father, then surely that being can relate to my problems and be the perfect mediator between God and man. Such a being who came down, is a perfect example of how we can be with him and go up to rule with him too. He said he was the way, the path. He is the door to a Kingdom that is beyond any glory that we can conjure.
Anyway conclusions of men, should never nullify scripture. That is what it looks like you are doing. If Jesus says “before Abraham, I am” then no conclusion of man should replace truth with man's ideal. If that happens, then it is but another case of man thinking he knows better than scripture and then it becomes a case of why challenge the Trinitarians who do the same thing? If the log is in your own eye…
Hi t8,
Indeed the heavenly became truly earthly even that he must taste death.
Heb2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
He, who already lived, TOOK ON the seed of Abraham.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:t8…..I disagree with you, you are the one reading into the text things it doesn't specifically say if not Show me one Place where Jesus said He was a preexisting being and I change my mind , but saying because He said before Abraham i am is saying the same thing a him saying he preexisted before him, that is forcing the text to say what you want it to say. So whose pushing their own view point which is not specifically said in scripture like the trinitarians do.
Why did Paul call him the second Adam then when in fact He was nothing like Adam being a super being who created all the world and every thing in it as you preexistence's say. I believe what Paul said was right He was truly a second Adam in every way simply a man
from his berth to His death, a man who God Perfected and became to him a Father and He became to Him a son.Just like it say's, For he (shall)be unto me a so and I (shall) be unto him a Father.Some say (will be) instead (shall be) but non the less it's future tense showing that at the time that statement was made that relationship did not exist. So where is a preexistence son then, its not their because it had not happened yet.
so maybe you need to get the log out of your eye before accusing others of having one in their eye.
IMO…………….gene
Hi not3,
He told us where he had come from and that he was returning there.
He alone had seen God and no man has done so.
He had glory with God and sought it again.He is the bread from heaven.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,16:37) Hi not3,
He told us where he had come from and that he was returning there.
He alone had seen God and no man has done so.
He had glory with God and sought it again.He is the bread from heaven.
Is this for me, Nick, or did you put my name by mistake? I haven't been contributing to this thread.I just asked Isaiah why he called 94 – SDN?
t8…..Where do you preexistences put this then, (THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU) quoted over four time in the bible. How does that fit into your scriptural view then. I guess God was Just lying according to you and trinitarians he would have to been lying right. Your whole concept is one of making the text say what in fact it does not specifically say. Because it fits you ideologies. Which to me is mid-trinitarian, like Adam said a foot in two boats.
IMO………gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,16:33) Isaiah, I'm curious, why do you call Bro 94 – SDN?
Six Digit Number.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,16:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,16:33) Isaiah, I'm curious, why do you call Bro 94 – SDN?
Six Digit Number.
You are so funny!!I asked 94 and he said he didn't know either! Now we know. That's funny.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,16:50) t8…..Where do you preexistences put this then, (THIS DAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU) quoted over four time in the bible. How does that fit into your scriptural view then. I guess God was Just lying according to you and trinitarians he would have to been lying right. Your whole concept is one of making the text say what in fact it does not specifically say. Because it fits you ideologies. Which to me is mid-trinitarian, like Adam said a foot in two boats. IMO………gene
This day is not the scriptures that talk about existing before Abraham or having divine nature and taking on flesh nature.Jesus was begotten through Mary no doubt about that.
But other scriptures talk of him before that.
You can put the scriptures together to get a picture.
A scripture on it's own often isn't enough to form a doctrine. Scripture in light of scripture gives you a bigger picture.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,16:50) Because it fits you ideologies. Which to me is mid-trinitarian, like Adam said a foot in two boats. IMO………gene
Mid Trinitarian.I believe that the Father is the Most High God, the one true God.
How am I a Mid-Trinitarian?
I don't believe in 1.5 persons as God and I believe scriptures such as “before Abraham, I am”. So why judge that as wrong? Would you prefer me to listening to you and ignore some certain scriptures?
T8…..so i guess we will just through that scripture quoted over four time out then right, and draw our conclusions from scriptures we can make say what is not Spicifically said. Again show me where Jesus ever said He was a Preexisting being of some kind, you can't, but i can show you where the scriptures you use are in fact referring to Jesus being in God's plan before the foundation of the earth > Peter said Jesus was (Foreordained) before the foundations of the earth (BUT) was Manifested in our time. Why don't you discuss this in your considerations of preexistence ever then. And i think Peter would know wouldn't he. The problem with your conjunctures are you conveniently leave out all the scriptures that show the opposite of you views.
And the reason I and Adam say you have one foot in one boat and one in another is because you hold on the preexistence as do trinitarians and the concept of preexistence came from trinitarians granted you don't see it exactly the same as they do but still there is the idea of a preexistence super being. They say He's God you say He created everything., So there is a similarity there.
IMO………….gene
In fact every thing you quote can exist as a plan of God, so where is your proof of a preexisting being of some kind show us some activity of Him some where in the scriptures.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,16:35) t8…..I disagree with you, you are the one reading into the text things it doesn't specifically say if not Show me one Place where Jesus said He was a preexisting being and I change my mind , but saying because He said before Abraham i am is saying the same thing a him saying he preexisted before him, that is forcing the text to say what you want it to say. So whose pushing their own view point which is not specifically said in scripture like the trinitarians do. Why did Paul call him the second Adam then when in fact He was nothing like Adam being a super being who created all the world and every thing in it as you preexistence's say. I believe what Paul said was right He was truly a second Adam in every way simply a man
from his berth to His death, a man who God Perfected and became to him a Father and He became to Him a son.Just like it say's, For he (shall)be unto me a so and I (shall) be unto him a Father.Some say (will be) instead (shall be) but non the less it's future tense showing that at the time that statement was made that relationship did not exist. So where is a preexistence son then, its not their because it had not happened yet.
so maybe you need to get the log out of your eye before accusing others of having one in their eye.
IMO…………….gene
Excellent post Gene,
Let all pre-existence believers reply your query what was the relationship their pre-existent being having with God. When all the prophecies about Jesus the Christ in O.T. were future events like “This day or he will be a son to me” how can these people create a pre-existing son? Is there a logic in that?
Peace to you
Adam
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