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I'd like to add to the above post…
at the end you stated…
Quote It is also true that God condemned Isaac to the flames at his father’s hands to advance his plans to save as many as could be saved from the more deadly flames of the lake of fire. This is just outright untrue.
for if it were true…what would make God any different than the blaspheming Government that believes… it's OK to destroy thousands of lives on 9/11…to establish their war on terror, for the greater good of The New World Order.
What would make God any different than the drug dealer, who feels it's ok to sell poison and destroy the lives of others for the personal good and gain of himself and his family?
This is like saying, God will destroy and sacrifice The Son of Abraham for the rest of mankind.
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This is not acceptable to who God is.
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If God is to be a redeemer of mankind, he would not and could not destroy “one” man for the rest of mankind.
“One” man could not suffice for the SINS of ALL man.
The only way God could redeem mankind, would have to be by his VERY OWN BLOOD.
That would be the only Good way God could redeem us sinners.
———
We by sin is against God…we HATE God when we sin.The only way to destroy HATE is with LOVE.
The MEANING OF LOVE, is that ONE WILL LAY HIS LIFE DOWN FOR HIS BROTHER.
THE ONLY WAY FOR GOD TO LOVE US, WOULD BE TO LAY HIS LIFE DOWN FOR US.
that is the only way God could redeem his people.
and he did exactly that.
He died on the cross, and layed his life down for his people…
in a passionate statement.The Creator of the universe and all things…
died on the cross, as a man…
subjected himself to what was unworthy to even be in his presence….
all to say to mankind….
3 little words…
I love you
Rokkaman,
I have come to believe this is a touchy subject for you and so I appreciate that you have chosen to cover it more toughly with me instead of leaving me hanging with your earlier,
I will start our declaring that I was telling the truth that God condemned Isaac at his father’s hands to further his righteous plans for all of creation but you to not understand why God is righteous to do that. You seem to have a mistaken belief and that belief is that God can be compared with any of his creations or association of his creations such as the U.S. government.
The government is not is it all knowing nor is all wise. God is so Good he cannot even be tempted by evil and the government is impure in its righteousness. Our own lack of righteousness renders us incapable of judging the actions of God while we can test those of the government. In making his plans God uses these three attributes and more so that we know that he knows the result of each of his actions before he makes it and that he does not make foolish choices or err in any other way and that his motives are pure and beyond question. None of that can be said about the U.S. government.
Another difference is that God, unlike the U.S. Government, created us. This gives God the entitlement to do with us as he wills as we owe him our very existence and well being to extent that our parents cannot even claim. In designing and making us he gave us our basic character of being and thus determined our purpose for existing. The government did not and can not do that whatever they may claim.
It was God that determined, among other things, that Jesus would die on the cross and thus condemned him even though it was evil men that put him to death. It was God that raised him from the dead displaying his righteousness and his power because the life of the spirit is more important than the life of the flesh. In a like way God cared about the soul of Isaac even as he condemned his flesh to the flames. God cares about him and knows if he hungers and thirsts for righteousness or not. God will then furnish us all with a transformed body an call his people to him and send the people of the evil one to destruction The U.S. government cannot and will not do any of this.
These points are crucial because they speak of the nature of the One True God and our faith in him.
If I did not love you then I would not be sharing my beliefs with you.
Edited to add words for clarity.
Great analysis and I do not disagree with you.
but the comparison and point of the analogy between God and The Us Gov was completely missed.
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The point wasn't to compare the righteousness of God compared to our Government…
the point was to anylize how God deals with mankind…in that being God, how does he interact with us, and how are we to identify it as The One True God or some other force.
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Now here's the picture.
If God tells you to do something that in the written law is a sin… how do you know it is God speaking?
He's aparently telling you to do something that is against his nature and understanding of who he is.
If he is the one true supreme being of the universe, then this shouldn't be so.
If he is true, if he is righteous, if he is good, if he is love…and if he is the source of all things…
Then those qualities cannot be compromised at all.
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If you can compromise just one of those qualities of God, then he is not God.
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That is the point of the comparison between him and the Government.
BECAUSE He is God…he cannot break his own laws.
because his laws are good and righteous…and to break his own laws would prove he is not God.
but scripture shows us that he tempted Abraham with the slaughter of his Son as a burnt offered sacrifice.
Something that is a sin and against God.
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Why would God tell a human to do something which is a sin?
Even though he is sovereign and has EVERY right to do as he please…
for him to break his own law, would prove he is not The Supreme Ruler and source of all things.
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This is the truth.
and this is the reason for the comparison.
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However, in understanding that the commandment was given in the spirit of christ…
it fufilled the written law by breaking it.
Therefore upholding the spirit of the law, which is redemption of the law.
——–
The Law wouldn't even be good without redemption from it.
So the true spirit of the law, isn't condemnation and death.
It is, liberation and life
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but that life could only be found with FAITH in God.
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So 2 things had to of happened for God to ask something that seemingly was a sin…for it not to be a sin.
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1. Abraham would had to of known the true God, and that it was his voice telling him to do such a deed.
2. God would had to of not let him go through with it by divine intervention.
———-
As we read the scripture…guess what?
1. Abraham knew it was God, therefore demonstrating his completely unmovable faith in proceeding with what seemed to be a sin, in which he would of not done if he thought it wasn't God.
and
2. God intervened by divine intervention.
——-
This seemingly tempting of evil, was actually Good only because it was done in the spirit of christ.
If God had of asked Abraham to kill his son, and his son died without children, and was not ressurected.
Not only was his covenant broken with Abraham, but God would be breaking his own law out of the spirit of christ.
and if that happened, he would not be God for his qualities of being supreme/righteous/good would of been compromised.
———–
So only in the spirit of christ (in which is the spirit of himself God) could this situation have been made Good.
Therefore God did not tempt Abraham with evil, but tested his faith in the spirit of christ.
————
If God had of allowed/condemned Issac to death, and actually KILLED him in the spirit of christ without actually following the spirit…then God would be no better than The Government that is willing to sacrifice a number of lives for the safety of the whole civilization.
————-
If God had of even killed one normal man, and condemned him for the sake of all men, then he is not God.
But because he chose a sinless lamb, and that lamb was the embodiment of God himself…
then what we witness is God laying his own life down for the sake of his children.
Rokkaman,
God acted out of love not only for all of mankind but also for Isaac and Abraham. I mentioned his other characteristics to show that God is the only one qualified to make such a call. This is important for us to understand even all the many things that go on in the world that we consider harmful serves God's purpose to rescue each and every individual that can be rescued for their sinful desires.
You made the point and I agree that the spirit trumps the letter. The spirit of this occasion is that God acted out of love as did Abraham; even though the later was told to perform an act that was harmful to the flesh of Isaac. Remember that Jesus taught us that sin comes from the heart and though we may call a deed evil or good that is only the cover of the book we are going by and it is the inside that truly matters.
I have my doubts that the vast majority, and perhaps all, of the ones that perform harmful acts are acting out of godly love.
So your point agreed with what I stated though I went into more detail than you chose to.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 14 2010,16:02) Rokkaman, God acted out of love not only for all of mankind but also for Isaac and Abraham. I mentioned his other characteristics to show that God is the only one qualified to make such a call. This is important for us to understand even all the many things that go on in the world that we consider harmful serves God's purpose to rescue each and every individual that can be rescued for their sinful desires.
You made the point and I agree that the spirit trumps the letter. The spirit of this occasion is that God acted out of love as did Abraham; even though the later was told to perform an act that was harmful to the flesh of Isaac. Remember that Jesus taught us that sin comes from the heart and though we may call a deed evil or good that is only the cover of the book we are going by and it is the inside that truly matters.
I have my doubts that the vast majority, and perhaps all, of the ones that perform harmful acts are acting out of godly love.
So your point agreed with what I stated though I went into more detail than you chose to.
We are in agreement then.My apologies for any disrespect.
Rokkaman,
I accept your apologies and I am glad you and I chose to take the path that ironed out our misunderstandings while sticking to what is right. Such is the path that Jesus taught us.
rm
it is important to see the real picture not from men view but of Gods plan,
God plan to save men,but men is mix up with Satan and is ways so those men do all sorts of bad things,and there is a price to be paid at the end.but all who are in favor to worship the true God suffer as well but there is a reward for it .but it is your faith who will bring it to live.
but the end of it all because there will be an end to the wickedness of men and Satan.
do not jeopardize your faith by the things you do not understand yet.
First of all, thanks to Kerwin and RM, what a good discussion. I'm not as deep as you two. I agree with the point that God does what he wants to, and test who he wants to, however he wants to. What if God broke his own law? He is God. As with other issues and questions I trust him and if I don't understand it now I will later. What about other “conundrums” from the bible? RM mentioned that even before God declares something sin it is sin by spirit. Here is a question from my simple mind- The “golden rule” is to treat others as you treat them. Why would God therefore grieve Job to test his spirit? He let satan wear his butt out, everything but death, he even wanted to die! Why did God even listen to Satan when he told God that Jobs faith was in vain because he was blessed? God probes the heart and knew Job was good. Why didn't he tell satan “I know that he is faithful, and you are evil, go back to hell where you belong, I would never allow harm to come to one who loves me as much as Job”? He tested Job, He tested Abraham. He is testing me right now. He is God. IMO I feel God wanted those events in the bible to give us insight into suffering and faithfulness and trust. I hope that I am able to respond as Job did- Blessed be the name of the Lord. Peace and love- Mark
I did not read all of the posts made here, so if someone said the following already, then just ignore it…..However the Law given to Moses was the Old Covenant that God made with Israel/ We are under the New Covenant found in
Luke 22:26″This cup is the New Covenant, in My blood which is shed for you.
Then Jesus gave us the Great Commandments found in
Math.22:37-40 Jesus said to Him:” You shall Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your Soul, and with all your mind.
verse 38 :This is the first and great commandment.
verse 39 “And the second is like it:” You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
verse 40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Jesus also magnified the Law on the Sermon on the Mount and made it Holy….
Peace and Love IreneIrene,
The question at hand I think is why does God seemingly break his own law to test ones faithfulness.Quote (mikeangel @ Aug. 18 2010,08:06) Irene,
The question at hand I think is why does God seemingly break his own law to test ones faithfulness.
Hello Mark,You guys are discussing the Father of the Faith, so the test is less telling.
What about God telling Moses and Joshua to wipe out (kill) every man, woman and child and even animals when they went into the Promised Land? And by the way,,,,steal their land.
What about Human and Animal rights?
What happened when they didn't do what God commanded? They got punished and started losing battles.
But like Irene said, that is the OT. We are under a new regime in the NT, LOVE.
Rather than debate about what God did in the past, what does God want for us in the present and future?
God's prophets were used to illuminate the life of God's son coming to earth and what He was going to do. Now that is past, there is still the future return.
We are to be faithful as Abraham was but in a different vein but still producing results — children for God.
Jesus asked a good question: whether or not he will find faith on the earth when he returns?
Ir is ironic that we would debate whether or not we would do an act contrary to the law if we believe that God was speaking to us. What about doing what God has asked us to do?
God HAS spoken to us in His word and are we following what God has said?
The Professor
Mikeangel………..The difference is when God brings something on us rather good or evil it still is for our ultimate GOOD , Many times He uses Evil for an instrument for our ultimate GOOD. When you consider Job and all the evil GOD brought on Him it still was in the end was for Job Personal GOOD. “There is (BOTH) Goodness and Severity with GOD”. We are told GOD disciplines us and Scourges every Child He excepts. “Now concerning this fiery trial that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you”. And again “Judgment begins at the house of GOD.” God allows all the evil in the world and even brings it on in many cases, But as it say these are no even to be compared with the glory that shall be reveal in us. Mike if you are going through some difficult time right now ask GOD for help what else can we do when these things happen to us, and remember nothing is permit here only temporary brother. I hope and pray GOD will Help you brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Thamks Gene. My point in my post was to comment on Erwins and RM's discussion. I was impressed by the answers and replys and especially the conclusion. You and I are eye to eye on the fact that God does things and allows evil according to his will, and we just have to accept that. God must love me very much, or more likely I am as hardheaded as my dad said I was and need hard lessons in order to learn. As to RM's original post the short rule for me is that God is God-period-and does and teaches as he wants to. Rule number two is when in doubt refer to rule one. In the mean time ” God, grant me the serenety to accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the differance.Amen.” Peace and love to you and yours too Gene – Mark
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,01:33) Quote (mikeangel @ Aug. 18 2010,08:06) Irene,
The question at hand I think is why does God seemingly break his own law to test ones faithfulness.
Hello Mark,You guys are discussing the Father of the Faith, so the test is less telling.
What about God telling Moses and Joshua to wipe out (kill) every man, woman and child and even animals when they went into the Promised Land? And by the way,,,,steal their land.
What about Human and Animal rights?
What happened when they didn't do what God commanded? They got punished and started losing battles.
But like Irene said, that is the OT. We are under a new regime in the NT, LOVE.
Rather than debate about what God did in the past, what does God want for us in the present and future?
God's prophets were used to illuminate the life of God's son coming to earth and what He was going to do. Now that is past, there is still the future return.
We are to be faithful as Abraham was but in a different vein but still producing results — children for God.
Jesus asked a good question: whether or not he will find faith on the earth when he returns?
Ir is ironic that we would debate whether or not we would do an act contrary to the law if we believe that God was speaking to us. What about doing what God has asked us to do?
God HAS spoken to us in His word and are we following what God has said?
The Professor
Hey David,
Yes, Love. You are right. Obedience to his will- check. Faith when he returns-check. Are we doing what he commanded? Are we following what God said? No. Not one. IMO we are trying but none is, thats where forgiveness comes in and why Jesus died for us. GodblessQuote (mikeangel @ Aug. 18 2010,12:23) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 18 2010,01:33) Quote (mikeangel @ Aug. 18 2010,08:06) Irene,
The question at hand I think is why does God seemingly break his own law to test ones faithfulness.
Hello Mark,You guys are discussing the Father of the Faith, so the test is less telling.
What about God telling Moses and Joshua to wipe out (kill) every man, woman and child and even animals when they went into the Promised Land? And by the way,,,,steal their land.
What about Human and Animal rights?
What happened when they didn't do what God commanded? They got punished and started losing battles.
But like Irene said, that is the OT. We are under a new regime in the NT, LOVE.
Rather than debate about what God did in the past, what does God want for us in the present and future?
God's prophets were used to illuminate the life of God's son coming to earth and what He was going to do. Now that is past, there is still the future return.
We are to be faithful as Abraham was but in a different vein but still producing results — children for God.
Jesus asked a good question: whether or not he will find faith on the earth when he returns?
Ir is ironic that we would debate whether or not we would do an act contrary to the law if we believe that God was speaking to us. What about doing what God has asked us to do?
God HAS spoken to us in His word and are we following what God has said?
The Professor
Hey David,
Yes, Love. You are right. Obedience to his will- check. Faith when he returns-check. Are we doing what he commanded? Are we following what God said? No. Not one. IMO we are trying but none is, thats where forgiveness comes in and why Jesus died for us. Godbless
Thanks Mark for the blessing,I am “trying” like you said….and I agree that we all fall short.
I am not without sin but I am “perfect” (complete) in God.
May God grant you wisdom in your quest for love and truth.
The Professor
David, Thank you very much, I need as much wisdom as God will give me. One thing that poped into my mind about being perfect – When the man came up to Jesus and asked what he need to do to enherit eternal life. Jesus' reply was “you know the commandments………do these and you shall live” The man said he had done these since childhood, plus repayed wrong etc. Then Jesus looked at him with love and said” there is one more thing you must do- sell all you have, give it to the poor, and come and follow me.” To me, Jesus was saying that you always need to do better and you will always need mercy . Someone said on here that God wants you to be beaten into total submission to God, and I agree with that.(When I am weak, it is then that I am strong) peace-Mark
DBF,
The people occupying the land were doing so illegally and were a wicked nation.
There were like a cancer. Now, God is not Partial, so when he says “Take them out – every last one of them” it means like “Cut out the cancer, every living cell of it”.
Leaving even one cancer cell can re-infect the body – so with the lawless land breakers.
DBF, try to understand more, post less of what you Don't yet know. Study the right kind of study and ask God for Holy Spirit support, first confessing your sins and lack of faith in the past and promising God that you will try harder in the future (even as you stumble and fail – like a child learning to walk – each time getting a little stronger)
Quote (mikeangel @ Aug. 18 2010,13:07) David, Thank you very much, I need as much wisdom as God will give me. One thing that poped into my mind about being perfect – When the man came up to Jesus and asked what he need to do to enherit eternal life. Jesus' reply was “you know the commandments………do these and you shall live” The man said he had done these since childhood, plus repayed wrong etc. Then Jesus looked at him with love and said” there is one more thing you must do- sell all you have, give it to the poor, and come and follow me.” To me, Jesus was saying that you always need to do better and you will always need mercy . Someone said on here that God wants you to be beaten into total submission to God, and I agree with that.(When I am weak, it is then that I am strong) peace-Mark
Hi Mike,Could Jesus have instead been referring to my explanation?
Perhaps that man inherited his wealth and thought he was righteous.
But if he acquires new wealth wile being righteous, then he is indeed perfect.
My explanation does NOT contradict Matt.4:48, Eph.3:13-14 and 2Tm.3:5, which yours seems to…Matt.4:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Eph.3:13-14 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth
be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine(NO PERFECTION),
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;2Tm.3:5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power (OF PERFECTION) thereof: from such turn away.
Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMikeangel,
God tests our hearts in order to strengthen and purify our character much like a smith working with metal.
Is the smilth wrong to heat and hammer metal?
If the metal is inferior and gives under the effort to improve it is it the Smith's fault?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 18 2010,17:03) Mikeangel, God tests our hearts in order to strengthen and purify our character much like a smith working with metal.
Is the smilth wrong to heat and hammer metal?
If the metal is inferior and gives under the effort to improve it is it the Smith's fault?
Kerwin,
As I stated, the” smith “does whatever he wants to. He knows all and understands all. Gods will be done. What comes to mind to me is Daniel 4v32 “All who live on earth are counted as nothing; he does as he peases with the powers of heaven as well as with those on the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him,” What have you done?”. I discuss the ponderings of “why” but I am totally loyal to God and trust him. The damned and wicked say “how could God do so-and-so if he is there and merciful”. Do not think I am going down that road, just wondering why it was built. peace
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