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Adam………You are taking it from a Jewish perspective, they reject Jesus as the anointed of GOD completely. Naturally they would say the text is not properly translated. But Herod and Others at the time of Jesus knew that the time was at hand for him to appear. The Jews also say they do not understand Daniel because it was written in Aramaic Language was the excuse they told me. But you can be sure they will find a way around those scriptures to nullify the authenticity of Jesus as there Messiah. The Jew have always reject the truth of GOD , why do you think GOD cast them out and sent a sword after them where ever they went, it was because they reject GOD and His Word and His Prophets he sent to them. Come on ADAM wake up do not put you trust in the Jews or there teachings. You have a true foundation stay with it. IMO
Hi brother Gene,
Infact Daniel chapters 2-7 only written in Aramic the rest of the book was in Hebrew. So no confusion for any Jew who knows Hebrew. I believe this prophecy of Dan 70 weeks talks about the period between 170-163 BCE which marked the Jewish dedication of defiled Temple at the time of Judas Maccabeus. Please see the beginning of the prophecy in verse 24. An anointed prince was Onias III the high priest and prince who was to come was the Antiochus Epiphanes who defiled the Temple and caused the sacrifices to cease.Jewish Study Bible Notes Comments 2004 (Reform/Conservative):
Seventy weeks [of years], that is 490 years, the true prediction of Jeremiah according to this interpretation (see v.2 and n.). This interpretation is based on reading a single word in Jer. 25. 11-12 in two different ways, as “shav’uim” (weeks) and “shiv’im” (Seventy). Such close textual study and revocalization of texts for interpretive purposes would characterize later rabbinic interpretation. Holy of Holies anointed, finally accomplish by Judas Maccabee in 164 BCE (1 Macc. 4.26-59), shortly after the final editing of Daniel.
25-26 Anointed leader…anointed one: The word anointed in vv. 25 and 26 is the Heb “mashiah” (Messiah); thus these vv. Have given rise to much Christian speculation. In the context of the other historical references, however the anointed leader probably refers to either Zerubabel or the high priest Joshua (Ezra 3.2; Hag. Ch 1; Zech. 6.9-15), while the anointed one is most likely the high priest Onians III, killed in 171 BCE (2 Macc. 4.30-34). The prince is Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
27. Half a week, the three and half years of the Maccabean revolt that had transpired to that time. See 7.25n.; cf. 8.14 Apallling abomination, probably new altar stones placed upon the altar in the Temple, upon which pagan sacrifices were offered (1Macc. 1.54;2 Macc. 6.5)
Hope this will give another explanation.
Gollamundi,
Why are you ignoring my questions? I quoted the prophets and yet you appear to choose not to believe them. I asked which ones you do not believe.
Do you not realize that the reason one prophets states that the people of Israel and Judea will stumble over the Anointed one is because they do not hunger and thirst for righteousness? In other words the love the darkness.
Don't you realize the teachings of the Pharisees were heresy?
It is those heretical teachings that the teachings of most Jews that are around today are descended.
You fail to address these issues.
You assume the Hebrew texts are more reliable but offer no proof that is the case.
Take Daniel which scholars believe was written in Aramaic and then translated into Hebrew, possibly to increase acceptance.
Whether the scholars are correct or not such translations do occur for various reasons. The Jews altered their religion around the second century when threatened by Christian evangelism.
Here is a excerpt from the wikipedia entry on the Council of Jamnia.
Quote Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. Nevertheless, the outcomes attributed to the Council of Jamnia did occur whether gradually or in a definitive, authoritative council. Several concerns of the remaining Jewish communities in Israel would have been the loss of the national language, the growing problem of conversions to Christianity, based in part on Christian promises of life after death. What emerged from this era was twofold: 1. A rejection of the Septuagint or Koine Greek Old Testament widely then in use in Hellenistic Judaism along with its additional books not part of the Biblical Hebrew/Biblical Aramaic Masoretic Text.
2. The inclusion of a curse on the “Minim” which probably included Jewish Christians (Birkat ha-Minim). According to the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Min: “In passages referring to the Christian period, “minim” usually indicates the Judæo-Christians, the Gnostics, and the Nazarenes, who often conversed with the rabbis on the unity of God, creation, resurrection, and similar subjects (comp. Sanh. 39b). In some passages, indeed, it is used even for “Christian”; but it is possible that in such cases it is a substitution for the word “Noẓeri,” which was the usual term for 'Christian'… On the invitation of Gamaliel II., Samuel ha-Ḳaṭan composed a prayer against the minim which was inserted in the “Eighteen Benedictions”; it is called “Birkat ha-Minim” and forms the twelfth benediction; but instead of the original “Noẓerim” … the present text has “wela-malshinim” (=”and to the informers”). The cause of this change in the text was probably, the accusation brought by the Church Fathers against the Jews of cursing all the Christians under the name of the Nazarenes.”Sociologically, these developments achieved two important ends, namely, the preservation of the Hebrew language at least for religious use (even among the diaspora) and possibly the final separation and distinction between the Jewish and Christian communities, though the separation is more complex than just a single event, see also List of events in early Christianity. (Through nearly the end of the first century, Christians of Jewish descent continued to pray in synagogues.) But see also John Chrysostom#Sermons on Jews and Judaizing Christians, dated 386-387.
Some of the books not admitted into the Hebrew canon, such as Wisdom and 2 Maccabees, gave the only textual support for the common first century Jewish belief in the after-life.[citation needed] The martyrs' prayers for the dead and the living praying and offering sacrifices for the dead motivated Martin Luther to reject these books as apocryphal because they supported Catholic doctrine and practice.
I have mentioned it previously.
Hi brother Kerwin,
I am not avoiding your questions infact I am aware of them. The problems with our Christianity are more in number than what we allege on Jewish people. God never forsaken His chosen nation even today. Jesus as per my knowledge never oppposed Judaism. But Christianity I find having lot of holes in its creed and beliefs. No reliability in its dictrines. Therefore the results is confusion everywhere. You know majority don't accept your views even in Christianity. I find Christianity made Jesus more than a Messiah which Hebrew scriptures never support. Worshipping other than God as divine is idolatry as per Judaism. You may protest it as a non-trinitarian. But you could ot convince any trinitarian by your logics here. I find Christians made a mess of mixing of so many theories for which no conclusion arrived so far in this forum. I find sticking to Judaism instead of following these hersies is more trustworthy. Jesus is not proved as Jewish messiah so far as per majority of the requirement except Christianity claims for second coming for which no support in Jewish scriptures. I find confusion and contradiction everywhere in N.T. No one concept is reliable. So why should I follow a path which was invented and man made?Please think over
Adamgollamudi wrote:
Quote I find sticking to Judaism instead of following these heresies is more trustworthy.
The problem with that strategy is that both the doctrines of Jews and Christians are hearsay. Jesus basically called both the teachings of the Sadducees and Pharisees such even as he taught us on earth. Those that assumed the children of Satan pose only as Jews are fools for the Devil their father posed as an angel of light. Jesus, the apostles, and others spoke of these days stating that mankind would reject a sound doctrine but would instead gather to those who tell their itching ears what they want to hear. Any true Jew or Christian would know that God wants his people to be righteous as he is righteous and only those who teach you how to obey all God commands can be truly from God. Even then it is not a guarantee as the evil one is tricky. But that is a start as the fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom.
gollamudi wrote:
Quote I find confusion and contradiction everywhere in N.T.
So you have limits. Even the Twelve found confusion in what Jesus taught. I am not sure about whether they found contradictions but I could why since Jesus and it seemed his students are fond of speaking in ways that require to think in the ways of God. It might have been a common technique of teaching at that time or just one that they themselves used among themselves. The 12 mentioned it.
John 16:29(NIV) reads:
Quote Then Jesus' disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.
That is before the translation of between languages and the difference between cultures comes between us and the people of that time.
gollamudi wrote:
Quote No one concept is reliable. So why should I follow a path which was invented and man made?
I treat contradictions and confusing entries as mysteries asking God to solve them for me. Sometimes he does and sometimes he does not. I also strive to separate what I have been taught or come to believe in other ways from what is actually consistent with the nature of God. This is to some part made difficult by my limited knowledge of the nature of God. It takes time for a student to learn.
The message of Salvation is easy to understand for those who desire its fruit and it sets you free from sinning. That is consistent with the nature of God who desires his people obey all he commands and has the power to make it so as well as the willingness to do so. The question then is are you willing to grasp and consume the fruit from the tree of life that Jesus has given us by his sacrifice.
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2010,11:52) So where do you stand brother Kerwin?
I follow neither the teachings of Modern Jews or those of Modern Christians.I follow the teaching that promises that I will become righteous and God is righteous. That is my desire and the object of my search. Anything that does not pertain to that is irrelevant. If anything I continually pray that my hunger and thirst grow greater for God will deliver good things to those that seek him.
How about ancient/olden days' Jews like Isaac Ben Abraham of Troki and his book “Faith strengthened or Chizuk Emunah”?
Here is the link for that;
http://faithstrengthened.org/Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 30 2010,12:49) How about ancient/olden days' Jews like Isaac Ben Abraham of Troki and his book “Faith strengthened or Chizuk Emunah”? Here is the link for that;
http://faithstrengthened.org/
You would have to go before the split between Judaism and Christianity as the split itself caused a change in culture variables that effect both religions.Sadly we have little information from that time period and of course some of that is suspect as heresy is hardly a new thing under the sun.
Philo of Alexander may be a good one though he is a Hellenized Jew that lived during the time of Jesus.
He attempted to translate Jewish ideas into Greek thought.
Here are some links to online texts of his writings. I find his writing hard to read since my attention span is short. Still he would know much of Judaism of the time we speak of.
Christianity had long back forgotten its origins and roots. It is no use to prove their dogma to say that they are near to their mother religion.
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 31 2010,10:49) Christianity had long back forgotten its origins and roots. It is no use to prove their dogma to say that they are near to their mother religion.
What you call Judaism today is not different. Why should we be surprised since Jesus and his servant prophesied that such would be the case.The lesson we should learn is not to gather around us teachers that state what our itching ears want to hear.
Adam…………I implore you by the sure mercies of our GOD , not to get caught up with these Jews who reject Jesus as The Christ. There are Jew who accept our scriptures and some are even here as Asher and Con. Ask them your questions and see what they have to say about them. Why should have to be sorry when Jesus returns because you fell for those who teach against Jesus as the CHRIST of GOD. You surely are more sound in your understandings then that, don't let some mistranslated scriptures here and there cause you to become shipwrecked. Pray earnestly and seek the guidance of GOD'S SPIRIT. It is good to make adjustment to what we understand at times but not to the rejection of Christ and His Words.
I am concerned for you and troubled brother………..With much love for you and yours………………….gene
Gollasmundi,
You need to be careful about the teachings you listen to since the devil is active in the world and he has many who serve him either knowingly or in ignorance.
Jesus teaches:
John 8:32-36(NIV) wrote:
Quote To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
They answered him, “We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.Paul teaches:
Romans 6:5-7(NIV) wrote:
Quote If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
As you can see it is the same teaching even using the some of the same words and terms. The difference being Jesus taught what would be while Paul what is.
Your source just goes to Peter was speaking the truth when he write:
2 Peter 3:15-16(NIV) wrote:
Quote Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 01 2010,08:15) Adam…………I implore you by the sure mercies of our GOD , not to get caught up with these Jews who reject Jesus as The Christ. There are Jew who accept our scriptures and some are even here as Asher and Con. Ask them your questions and see what they have to say about them. Why should have to be sorry when Jesus returns because you fell for those who teach against Jesus as the CHRIST of GOD. You surely are more sound in your understandings then that, don't let some mistranslated scriptures here and there cause you to become shipwrecked. Pray earnestly and seek the guidance of GOD'S SPIRIT. It is good to make adjustment to what we understand at times but not to the rejection of Christ and His Words. I am concerned for you and troubled brother………..With much love for you and yours………………….gene
Hi brother Gene,
I appreciate again for such counselling. Please leave me in this stage for some time in my search for the truth on otherside. I know my limits. I still remain a born again believer. But my beliefs are questioned from all angles. I find myself in great dilemma of what I believe. You know I was a trinitarian and I still remain in that stage only for the time being. But I have unlearned all of my beliefs which I learnt from my church and from own understanding. Today I came to know many things about non-trinitarianism but I could not stop at this level since I could not reach full measure of truth. Now I started unlearning even my non-trinitarian concepts and turning my attention towards orthodox Judaism which was the mother religion of Christianity.So I am at this stage of seeking truth. Please don't misunderstand my arguments on Jewish beliefs. I know you are having broad mind to understand me. Our brother Kerwin and others are often judgmental about my views. I feel even a trinitarian will feel judgmental about them also. I hope they will realise this truth.
Peace and love
AdamJewish Perspective on Paul
——————————————————————————–
Few Jews think about Paul very much at all; even less often than they think about Jesus, which is for many not at all.
Those who have troubled to examine Paul's writings are generally in doubt about whether or not Paul was even Jewish, despite his claims. If he was, he was absolutely out of touch with mainstream Judaism, and in fact does not even seem to be aware of some of Judaism's most basic teachings.
First, Paul does not seem to have known how to read Hebrew. All of his quotations from the OT are from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Tanakh, and not from the original Hebrew. The LXX, as it's called, was not then in good repute among the Jews of Judea. It was used by Greek-speaking Jews who lived in Greek cities, and Paul was one of them. Tarsus was more Greek than Jewish.
Second, Paul claims to have been a student of the great rabbi Gamaliel. There is not a hint of the influence of that rabbi in any of Paul's writings.
Third, Paul claims to know that he is of the tribe of Benjamin. Even in Jesus's day, it was very rare for a Jew to know from what tribe he is descended, except that of Levi (just as it is today) – though there are exceptions (just as there are today). This would be especially true of a backwater of Jewish culture like Tarsus. It's rather like a hillbilly from the Ozarks claiming descent from one of the Founding Fathers. Could be, but hard to really accept casually.
All that is circumstantial and not conclusive. What is much more troubling is Paul's attitude toward Torah and some of his teachings about it. According to Paul, the Law is a burden and a trial, leads toward death and not life, and is analogous to chains and a prison.
That is not, and has never, ever been, a Jewish point of view. Not ever.
Pick a Psalm. The Law is sweeter than honey, God's most precious gift, a lamp to one's feet and a light to one's eyes, the most essential and valuable thing ever created. Wherever Paul got his ideas about the hateful, oppressive Torah, he didn't get them from a rabbi or from a Jewish mama. It would appear that he made them up on his own.
Further, Paul's teaching that the entire Law must be followed with total and absolute correctness is not a Jewish teaching, either, and never has been. God made us, and knows our limitations; that's why He provided a means of atonement for every human, through repentance, prayer, and deeds of lovingkindness. We also don't presume to know how God will judge anyone.
Further still, this has nothing to do with “salvation” in Christian terms. That is not and was not a focus of the Jewish religion. Judaism is primarily concerned with THIS life, and not the next, if there is one. We have no formal teachings about an afterlife, and we leave that to God.
Paul seems to be intentionally formulating an entirely new religion based on teachings about Jesus which are not Jewish teachings, never were, and never could be. Messiah and Christ are two very different concepts; the idea that a human could be God incarnate is anathema to Jews, as is the idea that anyone can bear the guilt of anyone's sins but his own.
Paul may have been a Jew, but he certainly didn't practice the Jewish religion or, apparently, even know very much about it.
gollamudi,
Please look at Jewish History. The Jews of Paul's time tended to speak the common Greek. I believe Hebrew was more like Latin in the Roman Catholic Church. The Jews began abandoning the Septuagint in the 2nd Century A.D.
Here is what wikipedia states on the subject.
goll
Ac 5:34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.
Ac 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.the rest of your comments in your quote called;Jewish Perspective on Paul
yes you could see Gene is your teacher, you to worship the same god but it is not the creator it is the destroyer.
you must like to talk to ignorant people,so you can tell them anything who comes trough your head.
terraricca………again you become an accuser of the brethren as usual . Satan is also called an accuser of the Brethern is he your partner in accusations.? You have no idea of mine or anyone else relationship with GOD. Your accusations describe you more than any you accuse.
IMOgene
if you drift away from the truth of the scriptures that what happen,
i am a disciple of Christ not of religion or John,Victor,Sam or so on,the scriptures are my guidance
we all stand before God ,after we received the message it is our decision of what we do with it,
either become followers of Christ in our hearts or in a lip service to show others,or just refuse it by non compliance.God loved Israel, but it never stopped him from punish for there wickedness.
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 05 2010,10:20) terraricca………again you become an accuser of the brethren as usual . Satan is also called an accuser of the Brethern is he your partner in accusations.? You have no idea of mine or anyone else relationship with GOD. Your accusations describe you more than any you accuse.
IMO
I have to disagree with you Gene. The actions of some are obvious going before them. Jesus did say that “out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks”. Speaking false teachings is definitely a sign that one is on the wrong path and needs to turn back and do what is right.On the other hand one can certainly be lost and seeking the light. Still, if you fail to warn them away from the error of their ways then you sin. If on the other hand you warn them and they ignore you then the result is on their head.
Satan's accusations are false accusations as he is the false accuser.
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