Heaven- who goes?

[dirtyknections]

Hebrews 11:13-16 (niv) 13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.”

For the past few months I have have really been trying to understand the meaning of “new heavens and new earth”.

This scripture is puzzling to me because when refering to the “faithful ones of old” it said they longed for a heavenly city. And that god went to prepare it for them.

So is this scripture saying they yearned to be in heaven? How do you understand that scripture in light of scriptures like: Psalm 37: 11, 29 or Isaiah 45:18?

Your thoughts brothers and sisters

[NickHassan]

Hi DK,
Is it the mansions of Christ [jn14] which are heavenly Jerusalem?

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2008,13:20)

Hi DK, Is it the mansions of Christ [jn14] which are heavenly Jerusalem?

Hey Nick

Possibly…I will look at that scripture in context…be right back

[GeneBalthrop]

DK……I heard this sermon where the person giving it said we are the Heavens where the Kingdom resides. He said that each of us is considered a heaven and God is the King of the Heavens plural. I don't necessarily agree with that but it does have some merit.

peace to you….gene

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2008,13:37)

DK……I heard this sermon where the person giving it said we are the Heavens where the Kingdom resides. He said that each of us is considered a heaven and God is the King of the Heavens plural. I don't necessarily agree with that but it does have some merit. peace to you….gene

Hmmmn…thats a unique thought..i can't say I agree with that though…what scriptures did they use to support that statement?

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 19 2008,01:08)

Hebrews 11:13-16 (niv)  13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” For the past few months I have have really been trying to understand the meaning of “new heavens and new earth”. This scripture is puzzling to me because when refering to the “faithful ones of old” it said they longed for a heavenly city. And that God went to prepare it for them. So is this scripture saying they yearned to be in heaven?

Greetings DK

“Heaven” is sometimes used as an epithet for Almighty GOD; and as such, “heavenly” means something that belongs to & hence comes from GOD.

For example, (John 3:27)  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Thus, no one can receive anything unless it comes from GOD.

(Mat 21:25)  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Thus, was the baptism of John, given him, from men or from GOD?

James also says …
(James 1:17)  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

So the phrase “from above” is equiv. to “from heaven” equiv. to “(coming down) from GOD”
So in this context, when something is described as “heavenly” it means it is reserved in heaven i.e. it is reserved with GOD, it belongs to GOD, it is GOD's to give!

Now to the passage in Hebrews.
The Scriptures have never taught that saints' destination is Heaven! Rather, the saints have looked forward to the Kingdom OF Heaven (AKA Kingdom of GOD, same thing!)

It is a Kingdom that will come FROM GOD, from Heaven so it is a heavenly Kingdom. [2 Tim 4.8]
Right now it is reserved in Heaven, however, it will be brought down from Heaven, so to speak, at the coming of the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.

What then were Abraham & the patriarchs promised?
(Gen 13:14-17)  And YAHWEH said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

It has always been about the “Land”. The saints shall inherit “the Land/Earth.” [Matt 5.5, Ps. Chp. 37]
This is what we call the Abrahamic covenant.

Incidentally, when did Abraham look up “heavenly”?
(Gen 15:5)  And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

So, the number of “his seed” would be like the stars; however his and their destination will be “the Land.”
The Blessing of Abraham has always been about inheriting “the Land.”
(Gen 28:4)  And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

The Davidic covenant therefore is the fact that “the Kingdom” will be upon “the Land” promised to Abraham.
The Messiah will from thence rule upon the throne of David; his Kingdom will spread over all the earth.
[Luke 1.32-33, Dan 2.35,44; 7.27]
Thus, Abraham (as well as all the saints) will be heirs of the world i.e. this planet (renewed of course)
[Rom 4.13]

So, seeing that the Land of Israel is Promised by GOD; it is called “the Promised Land” or “land of Promise” [Heb 11.9]; and seeing that it will be established from Heaven it is described as heavenly
[Heb 11.16]

It is a “better” country because GOD will established it via His Messiah; it will be renewed by GOD.
Nevertheless it is the same land/country of Israel.
It is the same “earthly” Promised Land that the writer of Hebrews is describing from verses 9 thru to 16.
So what is the writer of Hebrews saying in verses 9-16?

Quote

Knowing what GOD had promised, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac & Jacob, are all heirs of the very same promise. They sought for a city whose builder and maker is God. So GOD will establish this city, not man!! They all died not receiving either the land or the city. (So they never did receive the Promises, the Land in their lifetimes [Acts 7.3-5]; so there must be a resurrection! This is the very basis for the resurrection. [Matt 22.31-32, 8.11]) They all died in faith, thus in the resurrection, all the saints including Abraham, Sarah, Isaac & Jacob; shall inherit the Kingdom/City/Land. So in their lifetimes, they sought after this Promised Land/Country/City. They were so convinced that they no longer were mindful of their “former” country i.e. Ur of the Chaldees. Rather, they embraced the promises of GOD; making them strangers & pilgrims in the very land that GOD had promised! They knew that their Promised Land/Country/City, will come from GOD, will be established by GOD. And therefore, in this sense, it is heavenly.

I will now quote

Quote (George Wesley Buchanan @ To the Hebrews, Anchor Bible, New York: Doubleday and Co., 1972, p. 188-193)

The author of Hebrews confessed that [the patriarchs] were “strangers and wanderers in the land” even after they were established on the land (1 Chron. 29:15). “The promises” about which the author was interested involved entering “the rest” (4:1), being blessed, and becoming a great and numerous people to whom others would defer (Gen. 22:17-19; Josh. 21:43-45; Heb. 6:13-20), or receiving “the land of the promise” (11:9). These are all related to the reestablishment of the land of Palestine under the control of the chosen people, as an exalted nation. . . . The author of Hebrews was the only author in the Bible who called the land of Canaan “the land of the promise,” so he was the only one to call it a “heavenly land” (11:16), but it is clear in both instances that Palestine was the land intended.

DK, hope this helps.

For more info, about these awesome promises, I highly recommend these articles: http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/promise.htm

http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/christianhope.htm

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 20 2008,03:58)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 19 2008,01:08) Hebrews 11:13-16 (niv)  13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” For the past few months I have have really been trying to understand the meaning of “new heavens and new earth”. This scripture is puzzling to me because when refering to the “faithful ones of old” it said they longed for a heavenly city. And that God went to prepare it for them. So is this scripture saying they yearned to be in heaven? Greetings DK “Heaven” is sometimes used as an epithet for Almighty GOD; and as such, “heavenly” means something that belongs to & hence comes from GOD. For example, (John 3:27)  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Thus, no one can receive anything unless it comes from GOD. (Mat 21:25)  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Thus, was the baptism of John, given him, from men or from GOD? James also says … (James 1:17)  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. So the phrase “from above” is equiv. to “from heaven” equiv. to “(coming down) from GOD” So in this context, when something is described as “heavenly” it means it is reserved in heaven i.e. it is reserved with GOD, it belongs to GOD, it is GOD's to give! Now to the passage in Hebrews. The Scriptures have never taught that saints' destination is Heaven! Rather, the saints have looked forward to the Kingdom OF Heaven (AKA Kingdom of GOD, same thing!) It is a Kingdom that will come FROM GOD, from Heaven so it is a heavenly Kingdom. [2 Tim 4.8] Right now it is reserved in Heaven, however, it will be brought down from Heaven, so to speak, at the coming of the Messiah, Jesus our Lord. What then were Abraham & the patriarchs promised? (Gen 13:14-17)  And YAHWEH said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. It has always been about the “Land”. The saints shall inherit “the Land/Earth.” [Matt 5.5, Ps. Chp. 37] This is what we call the Abrahamic covenant. Incidentally, when did Abraham look up “heavenly”? (Gen 15:5)  And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. So, the number of “his seed” would be like the stars; however his and their destination will be “the Land.” The Blessing of Abraham has always been about inheriting “the Land.” (Gen 28:4)  And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. The Davidic covenant therefore is the fact that “the Kingdom” will be upon “the Land” promised to Abraham. The Messiah will from thence rule upon the throne of David; his Kingdom will spread over all the earth. [Luke 1.32-33, Dan 2.35,44; 7.27] Thus, Abraham (as well as all the saints) will be heirs of the world i.e. this planet (renewed of course) [Rom 4.13] So, seeing that the Land of Israel is Promised by GOD; it is called “the Promised Land” or “land of Promise” [Heb 11.9]; and seeing that it will be established from Heaven it is described as heavenly [Heb 11.16] It is a “better” country because GOD will established it via His Messiah; it will be renewed by GOD. Nevertheless it is the same land/country of Israel. It is the same “earthly” Promised Land that the writer of Hebrews is describing from verses 9 thru to 16. So what is the writer of Hebrews saying in verses 9-16? Quote Knowing what GOD had promised, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac & Jacob, are all heirs of the very same promise. They sought for a city whose builder and maker is God. So GOD will establish this city, not man!! They all died not receiving either the land or the city. (So they never did receive the Promises, the Land in their lifetimes [Acts 7.3-5]; so there must be a resurrection! This is the very basis for the resurrection. [Matt 22.31-32, 8.11]) They all died in faith, thus in the resurrection, all the saints including Abraham, Sarah, Isaac & Jacob; shall inherit the Kingdom/City/Land. So in their lifetimes, they sought after this Promised Land/Country/City. They were so convinced that they no longer were mindful of their “former” country i.e. Ur of the Chaldees. Rather, they embraced the promises of GOD; making them strangers & pilgrims in the very land that GOD had promised! They knew that their Promised Land/Country/City, will come from GOD, will be established by GOD. And therefore, in this sense, it is heavenly. I will now quote Quote (George Wesley Buchanan @ To the Hebrews, Anchor Bible, New York: Doubleday and Co., 1972, p. 188-193) The author of Hebrews confessed that [the patriarchs] were “strangers and wanderers in the land” even after they were established on the land (1 Chron. 29:15). “The promises” about which the author was interested involved entering “the rest” (4:1), being blessed, and becoming a great and numerous people to whom others would defer (Gen. 22:17-19; Josh. 21:43-45; Heb. 6:13-20), or receiving “the land of the promise” (11:9). These are all related to the reestablishment of the land of Palestine under the control of the chosen people, as an exalted nation. . . . The author of Hebrews was the only author in the Bible who called the land of Canaan “the land of the promise,” so he was the only one to call it a “heavenly land” (11:16), but it is clear in both instances that Palestine was the land intended. DK, hope this helps. For more info, about these awesome promises, I highly re commend these articles: http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/promise.htm http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/christianhope.htm

This is also my understanding…I guess i am making sure that I have “rightly divided” that scripture….coming from a JW background I am trying to “make sure of all things”…JW have basically that same interpretation of that scripture…and I also studied and came to that conclusion..

But I am “making sure of all things”…so thats why I asked the initial question

I appreciate all the responses in this thread by the way

[gollamudi]

Hi Adam greetings,
But our permanent abode is new Jerusalem which will come down from God in heaven.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 20 2008,04:22)

Hi Adam greetings, But our permanent abode is new Jerusalem which will come down from God in heaven.

I agree GM…but lemme ask..where do you think Moses and Abraham's and those “faithful ones of old” are destined to be?

To me its seems all who are “baptized by spirit” into the new covenant have a heavenly hope (Hebrews 11:39,40)

And all those who weren't have an earthly hope (psalm 37:11,29)

I don't have a for sure answer…so I am asking for your thoughts

[Adam Pastor]

No DK
It is the same HOPE. ONE HOPE!
There is no going to Heaven for anyone, whether remnants or portions; whether 144000 or otherwise.

All the saints shall inherit the Kingdom of GOD; all will be co-heirs with Jesus who will visibly & literally rule from the literal city of Jerusalem in a literal Kingdom upon a literal throne.

ONE HOPE for all the saints/righteous.

(Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Mat 25:34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(Mat 8:11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(Rev 5:9-10) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(Luke 19:11-12) And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman [JESUS] went into a far country [HEAVEN] to receive for himself a kingdom [DAN 7.13-14], and to return.
(Luke 19:17-19) And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
(Rev 2:26-27) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

[gollamudi]

Hi DK,
I agree with AP as far as the blessings of Abraham concerned and the Kingdom of God on earth. At the same time I believe the new heaven and new earth is where our eternity will be and we will live in our mansions made of gold and other costly stones in New Jerusalem on the new earth. The abode of God and His son will be with us, this hope is for everybody both O.T and N.T believers. IMO
Adam

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 20 2008,05:01)

No DK It is the same HOPE. ONE HOPE! There is no going to Heaven for anyone, whether remnants or portions; whether 144000 or otherwise. All the saints shall inherit the Kingdom of GOD; all will be co-heirs with Jesus who will visibly & literally rule from the literal city of Jerusalem in a literal Kingdom upon a literal throne. ONE HOPE for all the saints/righteous. (Mat 25:31)  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat 25:34)  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Mat 8:11)  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. (Rev 5:9-10)  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Luke 19:11-12)  And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman [JESUS] went into a far country [HEAVEN] to receive for himself a kingdom [DAN 7.13-14], and to return. (Luke 19:17-19)  And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. (Rev 2:26-27)  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

I disagree…but I can understand how you came to this conclusion…

These are some of the scriptures that cause me to disagree:

Hebrews 11:39,40 (niv)0 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Phillipians 1:21-26..21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

Colossians 3:23-25…23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53….51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:34-45…. 35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:1-8 (yes..i know this is a vision…but it still speaks volumes)… 1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.

Revelation Ch 7 & 14- 13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In revelation followers of Christ are said to be before the temple in heaven…the word for temple used here is “naos”
which means holiest of holys…

Ok I'm tired of typing…plus I have a customer walking up to My store…these are my thoughts tho

[dirtyknections]

Lemme state I am by no means saying that I am right…I just have a certain understanding as of now…but I WILL change when moved to by the Holy Spirit…I come from a JW background…and my beliefs NOW are almost 180 from what they were…so please no that when I say I disagree…I am not saying, “i'm right and you are wrong”…I am merely saying I disagree

Blessings to all

[gollamudi]

That's of better spirit my brother DK

[GeneBalthrop]

DK…….you have a good teachable attitude and I hope God will guide you to better understand truth.
we all here are Just expressing our thoughts on things and you know the old saying Iron sharpens Iron, may well apply here. God is able to guide all of us to better understandings.

love and peace to you and yours……….gene

[dirtyknections]

GM and Gene…

even though we disagree on some things..I want you to know I always enjoy the conversations we have I consider it healthy christian fellowship

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