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Quote (Oxy @ June 14 2010,18:39) So I guess we should throw the Old Testament away then… or is there another answer?
Yes there is an answer.Take a look at Judges 13:20-22
20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”And
Exodus 3:1-14
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………………….13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ” ………………..And
Exodus 4:1-17
1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ………………13 But Moses said, “O Lord, please send someone else to do it.”
14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.
15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do.
16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it.”……………..So did Moses actually see Yahweh, or a representative of Yahweh? Well it is clear that Moses saw an Angel, yet it was the great 'I Am' who was speaking. So it was God, but he was using a messenger as I believe he always does. We also see that Aaron spoke on behalf of Moses, and Moses would be as God to Aaron. This again shows that God uses vessels to represent himself.
Now look at Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.So in the Old Testament we see obvious examples of Men seeing God, but on closer study we actually find that it was a representitive of Yahweh such as the Son of God or an Angel. I am not sure if the people knew that it was Yahweh's representitive but called him Yahweh because they didn't understand that God is invisible and no man can see him, coupled with the obvious wonderful glory of God that would have been present, or whether they understood that they were seeing and speaking to Yahweh, but through a vessel. It could well have been the latter as they talk about seeing the Angel (Messenger) of the LORD.
T8……….God does live vicariously (through) His creation, I believe that is what you are saying and i do agree with that. “THAT GOD MAY BE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL, . No one (CAN) physical see GOD, we might see the Glory He expresses, but seeing HIM, himself I don't think that is possible. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Jewish views on G-d:
An angel is an angel, G-d is G-d, Man is Man
G-d has no form
G-d is not a man. Missionaries say that the “son” aspect of their tri-partite god was the person Jesus. (Sometimes they even seem to say the other two aspects were also human, but that's another story.) They emphasize that they believe G-d became man, not that a man became G-d. Mormons go so far as to claim that G-d was once a man! The Tanakh makes no such distinction. The Tanakh says simply that G-d is not a man.
o Numbers 23:19, King James Version (KJV),1 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? .
o Missionaries claim the verse should read “G-d is not a man who lies…” This is not what the Hebrew texts says, or even how the KJV translates it.
o Hosea 11:9 …I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee….
o I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. .
o Psalm 146:2-3 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. .
Jesus is frequently referred to as the “son of man.” .
o The Hebrew phrase “ben adam” (literally “son of man”) in a poetic way of saying “person.”
o Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman (“mediator” in the New KJV) betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
o Note that Job 9:3 also contradicts the missionary idea that someone must mediate between people and G-d.
o The same idea is expressed in a different way in Deuteronomy Chapter 4. The text is explicit ― you saw no image at Horeb, ― so don't try to make a representation of G-d.
o Deut 4: 15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
o Note that Deut 4:19 also contradicts the missionary idea that G-d will condemn those who worship incorrectly.
o Missionaries sometimes say that G-d has changed since those words were written. They assert that now G-d is indeed human, and if Jews don't believe it, we will be consumed in the fires of hell. However, the Bible says that G-d does not change and we will not be consumed.
o Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 16 2010,22:05) Jewish views on G-d: An angel is an angel, G-d is G-d, Man is Man
G-d has no form
G-d is not a man. Missionaries say that the “son” aspect of their tri-partite god was the person Jesus. (Sometimes they even seem to say the other two aspects were also human, but that's another story.) They emphasize that they believe G-d became man, not that a man became G-d. Mormons go so far as to claim that G-d was once a man! The Tanakh makes no such distinction. The Tanakh says simply that G-d is not a man.
o Numbers 23:19, King James Version (KJV),1 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? .
o Missionaries claim the verse should read “G-d is not a man who lies…” This is not what the Hebrew texts says, or even how the KJV translates it.
o Hosea 11:9 …I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee….
o I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. .
o Psalm 146:2-3 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. .
Jesus is frequently referred to as the “son of man.” .
o The Hebrew phrase “ben adam” (literally “son of man”) in a poetic way of saying “person.”
o Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman (“mediator” in the New KJV) betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
o Note that Job 9:3 also contradicts the missionary idea that someone must mediate between people and G-d.
o The same idea is expressed in a different way in Deuteronomy Chapter 4. The text is explicit ― you saw no image at Horeb, ― so don't try to make a representation of G-d.
o Deut 4: 15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
o Note that Deut 4:19 also contradicts the missionary idea that G-d will condemn those who worship incorrectly.
o Missionaries sometimes say that G-d has changed since those words were written. They assert that now G-d is indeed human, and if Jews don't believe it, we will be consumed in the fires of hell. However, the Bible says that G-d does not change and we will not be consumed.
o Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Shalom Adam,If you want to be exact, let's be VERY EXACT! I do, (once the italics are added back into the English text) agree!
The Old testament makes (once the extra added words are identified) the meaning of the Scriptures clear!
The AKJV used added words (identified by italics), italicized words, to aid in translational the differences.
They did this to NOT accidentally corrupt the text, changing the meaning that YHVH had intended.
(Isaiah 55:8-9)
B'Shem
YHVHQuote (gollamudi @ June 16 2010,22:05) Jewish views on G-d: An angel is an angel, G-d is G-d, Man is Man
G-d has no form
G-d is not a man. Missionaries say that the “son” aspect of their tri-partite god was the person Jesus. (Sometimes they even seem to say the other two aspects were also human, but that's another story.) They emphasize that they believe G-d became man, not that a man became G-d. Mormons go so far as to claim that G-d was once a man! The Tanakh makes no such distinction. The Tanakh says simply that G-d is not a man.
o Numbers 23:19, King James Version (KJV),1 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? .
o Missionaries claim the verse should read “G-d is not a man who lies…” This is not what the Hebrew texts says, or even how the KJV translates it.
o Hosea 11:9 …I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee….
o I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. .
o Psalm 146:2-3 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. .
Jesus is frequently referred to as the “son of man.” .
o The Hebrew phrase “ben adam” (literally “son of man”) in a poetic way of saying “person.”
o Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman (“mediator” in the New KJV) betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
o Note that Job 9:3 also contradicts the missionary idea that someone must mediate between people and G-d.
o The same idea is expressed in a different way in Deuteronomy Chapter 4. The text is explicit ― you saw no image at Horeb, ― so don't try to make a representation of G-d.
o Deut 4: 15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
o Note that Deut 4:19 also contradicts the missionary idea that G-d will condemn those who worship incorrectly.
o Missionaries sometimes say that G-d has changed since those words were written. They assert that now G-d is indeed human, and if Jews don't believe it, we will be consumed in the fires of hell. However, the Bible says that G-d does not change and we will not be consumed.
o Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Adam…….Very good Post brother , i agree with it completely. We have (ONLY) ONE True GOD, all thing that exist are subordinate to HIM. He is our GOD and SAVIOR, and there is (NO) other. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Adam………………gene
Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2010,15:57) Shalom brother Ed J and thanks for your comments.
Hi Adam,Thank you!
Do you speak any Hebrew?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi brother Gene and Ed J thanks for your positive comments. No brother Ed J, I can't speak Hebrew but I want to learn to speak. I want to follow the religion of Jesus the Jew which is pure monotheism and adds nothing to that.
Love and peace to you both
AdamI was confused by the fact that in the New Testament it says John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Yet in the Old Testament there are a number of examples of people seeing God, for example:
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God; for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die because we have seen God.
Exo 19:11 And be ready for the third day. For the third day Jehovah will come down in the sight of all the people upon Mount Sinai.
Exo 24:9 And Moses went up, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel.
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as the essence of the heavens for clearness.There are more examples, but this will do for now. As for the angels, I found this:
Angel (Definition)
A word signifying, both in the Hebrew and Greek, a “messenger,” and hence employed to denote any agent God sends forth to execute his purposes.Therefore and angel can be the Holy Spirit or the Word of God.
When I asked God how come it says in John 1:18 that no one has ever seen God, but the Old Testament says differently, He gave me this understanding.
No one has ever seen the fullness of God and lived. But God can appear without His glory and in a manner that man can look upon Him. See for example when Moses asked to see His glory.
Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech You, let me see Your glory.
Exo 33:19 And He said, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of Jehovah before you. And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.
Exo 33:20 And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.
Exo 33:21 And Jehovah said, Behold! There is a place by Me, and you shall stand upon a rock.
Exo 33:22 And it will be, while My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
Exo 33:23 And I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back parts. But My face shall not be seen.So no man can see the face of God in His glory, but without His glory He is able to be seen.
How can a single cell animal that is in your body see you?
How can a man see the eternal God?
He is not a man.
You can't just go up to him and shake his hand.
What madness suggests that God is a man or is contained in a finite body?Oxy. No one can see God. Simple as that. If he can be in all and through all, then how can you see that when you cannot even see all things that he dwells in, never mind inside all things.
Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. See, even that scripture says he is invisible and further, we are told that the only one who has seen him is the begotten son.
In a number of places where God is seen, he is seen through an agent or messenger. That is how we see God. And in the face of Christ is the greatest revelation of God.
Your words that say that the Holy Spirit was the one sent, is an acknowledgement that God is the Father and he is invisible.
It doesn't have to be confusing.
You can see Jesus because he is the image of God in bodily form. Jesus is the highest revelation of God that any of us will see. In him the fullness of deity or God's nature is made manifest.
So God is invisible and Jesus is visible.
One is the invisible God, and the other is the visible representation of the invisible God.
i.e., Jesus is not God, he is a representation of God, an image, the son, the Word. All of these are OF God.Not confusing at all. Only confusing if you try to fit it into the Trinity template.
To All,
I'm confused…
Jesus is the [visible] image of God, yes?
But Man was also created in the [visible] image of God, yes?So…is man then not a [visible] manifestation of God?
Also, in Heaven, Jesus was in the 'form of Spirit' but he then ''EMPTIED'' himself and was born in the 'form of Man'.
He was fully man and therefore the same 'image of God' as all others of Mankind or that Mankind could be, that is, Sinless.
The only difference between Jesus and any other man was that Jesus was sinless.
This single difference, like the single DNA molecule difference, science says, between Man and Ape, makes a massive difference to the being. For Jesus it means that completely believes in his creator, just as Adam would have until he was tested. Adam failed, Jesus did not.
Perhaps a thread about 'What exactly does ''in God's Image'' mean' is in the offing.To me, it means having the spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) and Thinking, Speaking and Acting in the same manner as the creatore, God Almighty.
Therefore, Man can:
– Think original and independent thought;
– Speak those thoughts (Not simple predefined mimicks but highly complexed vocalisations);
– Act[ion] those 'Words', the vocalisation of the original and independent thought.
To wit – To be a Creator, to be a 'limited, restrained' version of God the Creator, written as 'a god'.Ja, People think “Man is made in Gods image” means God had a body or something, but God is invisible, Spirit, So was Jesus (He only became flesh later on)…So, made in Gods image is made like God, and God is love.
HI kar,
I'm still missing some understanding:
Quote Genesis 1:26-28:
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.So here we see Man created in the image of God.
Quote Hebrews 1:1-4:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.And here we see that Jesus is the express “Image of God”
So if we have seen God because we have seen Jesus —- or, if Jesus is the Manifestation of God because Jesus is/was the Image of God
AND
Man is created in the Image of God??
Do you see the dilemma? Both Jesus and Man …are the Image of God – and some say that “if you have seen Jesus then you have seen God”
I'm just thinking that perhaps “Image” doesn't mean Visible “physical/spirit” Manifestation of the Invisible but the “Nature of God”:
Having an open Will, Conscious perception, Knowledge, Creativity, etc. Things that Animals don't have and most Angels don't possess. Perhaps1– Any thoughts?
Hi Ja, God is invisible and Spirit, we were made in Gods image Spiritually , but we were given a body of flesh. Rather than live in harmony as Gods Spiritual image in the flesh, man sinned. The consequence was death. Untill Jesus.
Holy Spirit can be in anyone, maybe it is in all Children born, I dont know, but if we sin and continue to sin (and sin also can be negative emotions like uncontrolled anger day after day) the Holy Spirit cant dwell long with sin. Jesus who didnt sin had the Holy Spirit without measure.
So he was the express “image of God ïn the flesh” maybe?
God is spirit. John 4:24. Spirit is compared to wind. Wind cannot be seen, however the effects of wind can be seen, smelt, felt, heard and tasted. Ie, wind brings the smell of a campfire to your nose. Did God literally appear to Moses? At the burning bush, it was actually an angel from God that was seen and heard by Moses. The angel communicating to Moses was the effect of God, God initiated it, God sent the angel with a message to deliver. If the scripture was literal, it might have had to say, God sent an angel to communicate with Moses instead of the Lord appeared to Moses. The use of the figurative language emphasizes that it was the Lord God not some whimsical fantasy or some other source.
It was the Lord initiative to involve himself in the life of Moses. (Of course, because Moses was a believer)Nick,
I have read some of your posts. You have given a lot of effort to consider scripture in its entirety. I appreciate what you are doing. I look forward to learning from your posts.
barley
Quote (JustAskin @ June 20 2010,22:48) To All, I'm confused…
Jesus is the [visible] image of God, yes?
But Man was also created in the [visible] image of God, yes?So…is man then not a [visible] manifestation of God?
Also, in Heaven, Jesus was in the 'form of Spirit' but he then ''EMPTIED'' himself and was born in the 'form of Man'.
He was fully man and therefore the same 'image of God' as all others of Mankind or that Mankind could be, that is, Sinless.
The only difference between Jesus and any other man was that Jesus was sinless.
This single difference, like the single DNA molecule difference, science says, between Man and Ape, makes a massive difference to the being. For Jesus it means that completely believes in his creator, just as Adam would have until he was tested. Adam failed, Jesus did not.
Perhaps a thread about 'What exactly does ''in God's Image'' mean' is in the offing.To me, it means having the spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) and Thinking, Speaking and Acting in the same manner as the creatore, God Almighty.
Therefore, Man can:
– Think original and independent thought;
– Speak those thoughts (Not simple predefined mimicks but highly complexed vocalisations);
– Act[ion] those 'Words', the vocalisation of the original and independent thought.
To wit – To be a Creator, to be a 'limited, restrained' version of God the Creator, written as 'a god'.
Hi JA.I thought this was a vaild question and was worthy to have its own discussion. So I have created one here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3295I believe what is written in the Scriptures.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God; for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die because we have seen God.
Exo 19:11 And be ready for the third day. For the third day Jehovah will come down in the sight of all the people upon Mount Sinai.
Exo 24:9 And Moses went up, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel.
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as the essence of the heavens for clearness.I know it is written that no man can see God and live. This tells me two things. The first is that it is possible to see God, but it will cost you your life.
The second thing is, according to the experience that Moses had, it is impossible to see God in His glory and live, but God is capable of appearing as a man, as has been proven by the Old Testament Scriptures quoted above.
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