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Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,04:06) Quote Can you show scripture where satan owns any days? –WJ
I want to know who it is that keeps asserting that Satan owns a day? I don't think anyone is actually asserting this. It is “halloween” that we are arguing against. Really, halloween is not a day event anyway.
It takes place at night, in darkness.Hey, here's a scripture that just sprung to mind:
…the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God.”
When people want to do bad things, they tend to do this in darkness, at night. Anyway, off subject and it doesn't really mean anything.
Who keeps saying that Satan owns Oct 31?
It is not “a day” itself that anyone is arguing against. It is what some choose to do on that day. If someone chooses to celebrate paganism with the world, that is his choice. If someone decides to hand Bible tracts out with candy as though this were the “treat” they were asking for, that is his choice. What you DO WITH THE DAY is what we are all talking about.
david,Oct. wrote:You are trying to create some false argument about the day itself. It is what you do with each day…..
Who keeps saying that Satan owns Oct 31?
You see David, this is what you do all the time. You do not read post you just skim over what you want and make whole post around something you don't understand.Read the post and you will see it Was Gene and Irene that is saying that Oct 31st is satans day.
So no I am not trying to create some false argument. Having to respond to this is a waste of my time and I think I will just not answer you the next time you create a straw based on something you do not understand!
WJ
Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,04:08) Quote All I can say is I am at liberty in Christ to use my time on Oct 31st as a time for family, friends and a Church gathering to do what I believe is right. –WJ
WJ, I do that too. I do that with every day. I've asked this before and maybe you've answer me….what exactly makes that day different for you than any other day? What specifically do you do? I may be all wrong about you.
DavidSee, there you go agian. You obviously are not listening,
It is you and everyone else that is making Oct 31st a different day or a special day for satan. Don't you think that would be giving credence and power to satan?
I have been saying all along that every day belongs to God for he owns all the days. I am free to do as I please on that day.
Again I have already explained what I do on that day but you obviously don't read or listen but just seek to attack me for following the worlds practices as you call it!
WJ
Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,04:23) Quote David does not deny the resurrection. –CON
Then why would Thinker continually say that I do, despite me telling him I don't deny the resurrection. Jesus certainly was “put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.”
DavidBecause you do not believe that Jesus “Body” was ressurected, is this true or not?
WJ
Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,04:52) Quote “Make this your decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping.” “It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.”–Rom 14 WJ, please answer:
Would any Christians stumble over your celebrating halloween?WJ?
DavidThat is a two edged sword isn't it?
If I am doing something that you think is wrong like eating certain foods then you could become a stumbling block to my liberty in Christ by condemning me.
Why don't you guys read the whole chapter instead of pulling one verse out of its context and use it for judging me?
“Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters“. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. ”WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVANT? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; “another man considers every day alike”. Each one should be “fully convinced in his own mind.He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. Rom 14:1-6
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2009,05:09) Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,19:33) Is 1:18 has stated: Yes, but spending time with publicans, sinners, and tax collectors doesnt compromise your spiritual wellbeing. Would you attend a seance? That's a more legitimate example.
I wonder what people would say to this? Or would they just ignore it?
Would they say:
Yes, I would bring Christianity to this seance and partake of this seance in my own way.
Would they say:
God owns everything in the earth including this table that the seance is being held at, so why let them make this table bad; I will overcome the bad with good.
Would they say:
But seances are fun. They're shown in movies. And sometimes theirs candy….(OK, I made the candy part up.)
Is 1:18 also said:
I've been tring to put my finger on what exactly it is that makes me so uncomfortable with christians participating in halloween. I think it's the syncretism that invariably results, meshing something worldly with something divine and pure. It never works Brother. We are called to be set apart from the world.
Come now! Jesus and the apostles were all about mixing the good with the bad. Would they let paganism overtake them? No, they'd jump right in with the pagans and mimic their unholy behavior!He also asked this:
I think the more pertinent analogy is – did Yeshua participate in the equivalent pagan rituals or festivals of His day?
Obviously he did! He loved pagan rituals. Anything having the least to do with mimicking or adopting practices that are connected to false gods….he was all over that stuff!(Thinker, I'm being sarcastic here.)
Quote Thank you for your non answer! Everyday is the Lords day. At least it is in my world!
–WJ
Then if it is the Lord's day, where is the honor due him? Should you not imitate the Lord if it is the Lord's day? Why imitate the world if it is the Lord's day? The 2 are directly opposed. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. Jesus followers are “no part of the world.”
I am not justifying WJ as I do not know his heart.But I have no problem entering a place where a seance is taking place. Sure I wouldn't partake, but there must be some truth to the words “greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world”.
Of course, if I decided to talk to some people at the seance, then I don't see that as me partaking.
If I conducted the seance or held the glass, or partook in another similar way, then yes I would be partaking.
Remember that we can be in the world and not of it. So I can be in the seance hall and yet not partake of the seance. I could use my time to make some friends and share the gospel for example. I could even use the seance as a way to preach the gospel by talking about the spiritual realm and what happens when we die etc.
Of course when we do something and it weakens a brother then that is a good reason to abstain. But if not, then we don't abstain because the Devil's power can overcome the power of God.
If I gave something to someone at Halloween, then I could still do it in the service of God. Does it not depend on the heart?
Did Jesus say “a glass of water given in my name, except on Halloween, shall not lose its reward”? If he did, then he would have admitted that the Devil has some power.
Amen t8.Greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world!
The world doesn't belong to satan. The world belongs to the Lord!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,03:05) Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2009,04:23) Quote David does not deny the resurrection. –CON
Then why would Thinker continually say that I do, despite me telling him I don't deny the resurrection. Jesus certainly was “put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.”
DavidBecause you do not believe that Jesus “Body” was ressurected, is this true or not?
WJ
Keith,
We know that David and the JW's do indeed deny the resurrection of Jesus. The JW's just don't come right out and say it. He has admitted that the “Jesus” who appeared to the disciples was some other “spirit creature.” He has admitted also that he used Paul's “bad associations” statement out of context.I want to stress again that my purpose for pushing this is to show that David's commandment against halloween is based in the misuse of scripture as the pharisees did in Jesus' day. And Paul's statement about bad associations in its context speaks against David.
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2009,03:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 19 2009,16:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 18 2009,23:07) Gene Quote (Gene @ Oct. 18 2009,20:27) Thinker………..If Satan is dead why keep his day then?
Can you show scripture where satan owns any days?WJ
GeneThank you for your non answer!
Everyday is the Lords day. At least it is in my world!
WJ
Agreed.Saying that the Devil contaminates certain days and music is giving him too much power.
It is a weak conscience that allows the devil to gain victory or ownership over days, numbers, musical notes, and the like.
If we have faith toward God, then we can eat what we want (within reason) and can go where we want (within reason) and talk to whomever we want, and all at any time or day (within reason).
What I mean by within reason, is that there may be good reasons to not do something, such as weakening the conscience of a brother, or if the act is detrimental in some other way. Apart from that, we are not bound by days and traditions. We can live for Christ any day. We can save people on the Sabbath. We can give to the poor at Halloween.
We don't have to think, wait a sec, I can't be generous because it is Halloween.
Amen!WJ……….Don't get me wrong i full well know GOD owns all Days, but he has given us freedom to use these days for good or for evil, Now rather you or I believe in devils and demons and goblins or witches or satanic creatures , doesn't change the truth right?, But i have seen this Halloween thing grow from hardly nothing in fifty years to where it is in some areas bigger then Christmas. I know you are not going to fully engage in these activities of Halloween for conscience sake. But the question here is how are we to view these weird behaviors and customs as people of GOD, are we to condone them because we have liberty in Christ or call them what they are, Evil vile practices of Evil origins. AS was stated where is the line, do we serve GOD and His way or the World and it's ways. What do the Childern of light have in common with the Childern of Darkness. Do you really think in the Kingdom of GOD People will be Celebrating Halloween, i do not think they will personally. Again i am not condemning anyone here, let everyone do as his or her conscience allows. No one made me a Judge over GOD'S heritage. As stated GOD is able to make Him Stand. What i am giving is (JUST) my opinion, that is all and nothing else.
gene
David said:
Quote Then why would Thinker continually say that I do, despite me telling him I don't deny the resurrection. Jesus certainly was “put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” David,
The Greek conjunction “de” is dative and means “being made alive TO the Spirit.” He did not actually adopt His spirit essence until he was fully glorified. Paul begins 1 Corinthians 15 by saying that Jesus BODILY appeared to His disciples and then to “five hundred brethren.” He told His disciples that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Thomas thrust his hands into Christ's wounded body.You indeed deny the resurrection in saying that Jesus was raised as another “spirit creature.” The JW's are of the “bad associations” that Paul was speaking about.
So lay off WJ about bad associations. You even admitted that you took Paul's statement out of context.
thinker
Gene
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 19 2009,12:03) Do you really think in the Kingdom of GOD People will be Celebrating Halloween, i do not think they will personally.
I am not celebrating Haloween, nor giving creedence to it. In fact I am not giving the devil credit of anything on a day that the Lord has made.Most it seems here are giving creedence or power to satan by claiming it is his day or making it some kind of an evil day! For the world that may be true but not for the believer. As a believer I can do what I want with the day as long as I am within Gods moral compass, and as I said that is a matter of the heart.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 20 2009,04:17) Gene Quote (Gene @ Oct. 19 2009,12:03) Do you really think in the Kingdom of GOD People will be Celebrating Halloween, i do not think they will personally.
I am not celebrating Haloween, nor giving creedence to it. In fact I am not giving the devil credit of anything on a day that the Lord has made.Most it seems here are giving creedence or power to satan by claiming it is his day or making it some kind of an evil day! For the world that may be true but not for the believer. As a believer I can do what I want with the day as long as I am within Gods moral compass, and as I said that is a matter of the heart.
WJ
Yes WJ! “To the pure ALL THINGS are pure” (Paul)thinker
All,
I am willing to concede something; Halloween's ancient roots are of evil nature.
I have been doing extensive research on the topic. There ARE some origin stories out there that appear to be harmless – speaking of harvest and festivals surrounding the memories of dead loved ones. Harmless. However, the overwhelming evidence shows that even the most harmless Celtic farmers were aware of the practices and traditions practiced by the pagans to envoke the Otherworld.
Some articles that I have scanned explain the “Otherworld” with no more definition than we would. A place after this life;explainations that do not want for witchcraft or any evil spiritualism, but simply a desire to understand and one day be a part of that wonderful world – whatever awaits us.
But I cannot escape the true meaning of the original festival. While it WAS indeed a time of one season ending and another beginning….the ancient folks DID believe in ghosts reappearing and their abilities to interact with these spirits. Magic was certainly involved. For the Christian, the facts stop there.
Below is an interview which you may or may not want to read. I found it in my research and it was the one that convinced me of Halloween's evil roots. I like to hear things from the horses mouth (in this case, from the witches mouth). It's telling…..
With all of this said, I'm not sure what my reaction is quite yet. I'm battling. I thank you for your grace and prayers, in advance.
Love,
MandyThe Hallowe'en Interview (2008)
Introduction
Dr Leo Ruickbie was contacted by Kate Whiting of the Press Association and interviewed on 7 October 2008. Below you will find a transcript of his original reply.Interview Transcript
KW: What is Halloween?LP: US English: Halloween. UK English: Hallowe'en. The word comes from All Hallows' Eve(n), a Christian term meaning literally All Saints' Evening, being the night before All Saints' Day. The Christian festival was grafted onto an existing older pagan Celtic celebration. In the Gaelic speaking world this was known as Samhain, Samhainn, or Samhuinn, but the form Samhain is generally used by today's witches and other pagans. Modern Pagans pronounce Samhain as sow-ain, or sometimes sow-in, but historically there were many regional variation. In Scotland they said sav-en, in Ireland sow-in, and in Wales sow-een.
KW: Witches are given a bad name by Halloween…
LP: Witches are seen as a figure of evil in modern culture but they're not casting themselves in that role. They follow a religion that is base upon European paganism and not with the Christian idea of worshiping the devil and sacrificing children. Hallowe'en is a Christian term.
KW: What is celebrated at Samhain?
LP: The Celts only had two seasons, summer and winter, and so Samhain, meaning 'summer's end' was a harvest festival and is now widely thought of as a New Year celebration (although the historical evidence for this seems not to extend beyond the 18th century). In practical terms there was the bounty of the last harvest to celebrate, as well as the long winter ahead to prepare for. Thus, in anthropological terms, it has a liminal status as a dangerous period of transition, here between the fruitfulness of summer and the fallow of winter. This is seen in the folkloric evidence that this time of year was thought to be one in which the natural and supernatural were particularly permeable. The traditional dressing up (guising) as ghosts and witches is an act of apotropaic magic, which is to say, an attempt to frighten away evil spirits by looking more scary than they are. In Ireland it was once believed that such evil spirits emerged from the cave of Cruachan in Connaught to work their mischief, stealing babies and leaving changelings in their stead. In Scotland the particular spirit is called a Samhanach, but the fairies should never be named except as 'The Good Neighbours', and in Wales the people feared the 'cutty black sow'. In Scotland, Wales and Ireland a tradition of bonfires was also formerly recorded, but this has now become transposed to Guy Fawkes' Night. The fire again expresses a dual message of celebration and protection (purification). This same liminality gave rise to the idea that this time of year was particularly suitable for divination and receiving messages from the otherworld. In modern paganism, particularly Wicca, Samhain is celebrated as a festival of the dead – a time to remember those who have passed away and honour the ancestors.
KW: What do modern-day witches think of the commercialised idea of Halloween and the way they are represented?
LP: They definitely distance themselves from that and they do see that it's a fairly negative representation, and to an extent that's come from our commercialisation of Hallowe'en. But there's still a traditional aspect to the modern festival.
KW: What kind of things could people do to recreate the old Samhain/Halloween traditions?
LP: There are lots of great games that have to do with divinatory practices, finding out things about your future, such as who you're going to get married to etc. Most of the traditional foods and games were simple and rustic in nature and won't take much of a bite out of credit-crunch pockets. A popular drink in the eighteenth century was 'Lambs' Wool', a concoction of milk and crushed and roasted apples. On St Kilda and in Yorkshire the custom remains of baking triangular seed-cakes. In Ireland a special supper was served called 'callcannon' or 'colcannon' and consisting of mashed potatoes, parsnips and chopped onions. This dish can be combined with a little magic. Various items can be hidden in it, foretelling the future for the finder. A ring means one will marry within the year, or if already married will have good luck. A thimble means that one will never marry – a variation has a thimble for a spinster and a button for a bachelor. A coin, traditionally a silver sixpence, means wealth. Additionally, a key would mean a journey. Such tokens can also be baked in a cake.
In Scotland we used to bob for apples in a large basin of water – and, of course, if one didn't get sufficiently wet in the attempt to retrieve an apple someone was always likely to give an obliging shove. In England one who was successful in retrieving an apple was said to be lucky in love. Pumpkins were an exotic vegetable then and we had to make do with hacking lanterns out of tough-as-old-boots turnips. Other traditions include leaving out little cups of milk and biscuits for the imps before going to bed in order to keep the house lucky – a custom also connected with Yule. One of my favourites is an old Highland divination made by hurling a shoe, held by the toe, over the house. One is fated to undertake a journey in the direction indicated, but if it lands sole up, then bad luck is foretold. Of course, it works best if you have a small Highland cottage – I'm not sure if I could get a shoe over my present house without taking a chimney pot off.
KW: How did we get from the old pagan festival of Samhain to what we know today as Halloween?
LP: It's a story of remarkable stubbornness in the face of a concerted effort to wipe out the old pagan traditions and shows that people have a deep need for ritual that extends beyond the dogmatic control of spirituality. The mass commercialisation of Hallowe'en was simply inevitable in today's consumer society and, despite being widely despised, has helped to prolong and even re-introduce the festival.
KW: Why is it important that we hold onto these old traditions?
LP: Modern witches believe that such traditions give us a sense of who we are and where we've come from, and I believe they are right. You don't need to be a pagan to celebrate Samhain and most of th
e people who practised some of the things I've talked about would have called themselves Christians. It's also important that we don't let people dissuade us from these traditional fun and games – and I think you know who I mean – because if we do, then we're letting them call the tune. It's a lack of understanding that leads people to think of Hallowe'en as some sort of diabolical sabbat, when its intention was always the exact opposite. It's also important that we shouldn't miss any excuse for a party!KW: During your research, did you join in any Wican Samhain/Halloween celebrations and if so what did you do? What kind of rituals take place around Halloween?
LP: I've taken part in quite a number of Samhain rituals – I'll be going to a party in a castle in Germany this year. For Wiccans the event will involve a ritual commemorating the ancestors, both personal and in a wider spiritual sense. One of the most memorable rituals I took part in was held in an apple orchard in darkest Essex. It was a long walk from the station down a lane reputedly haunted by a headless horseman. Very atmospheric. Under the stars we called the elements, cast the circle, invoked the goddess and horned god (Cerridwen and Cernunnos), made a simple offering to the fire and passed round a drinking horn like the old Anglo-Saxon symbel. One of the chants sung that night went like this:
We are the old people,
We are the new people,
We are the same people,
Stronger than before.
KW: What kind of things could people do to recreate the more traditional feel of Halloween?LP: In Scotland, rowan, elm and holly were all used as a protection against evil spirits, so a room decked with cuttings of these plants would provide a simple and traditional decoration. Bowls of nuts and apples – symbols of this season – are also attractive decorations. The special dishes and games I've mentioned will also help recreate the tradition as it has been practised by generations past.
The following interview can be found at witchology.com
Mandy said:
Quote However, the overwhelming evidence shows that even the most harmless Celtic farmers were aware of the practices and traditions practiced by the pagans to envoke the Otherworld. Gospel report
Quote Don't worry about the origins of the event, JUST SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY http://www.gospelreport.org/halloween_tracts.htm
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 20 2009,06:56) Mandy said: Quote However, the overwhelming evidence shows that even the most harmless Celtic farmers were aware of the practices and traditions practiced by the pagans to envoke the Otherworld. Gospel report
Quote Don't worry about the origins of the event, JUST SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY http://www.gospelreport.org/halloween_tracts.htm
thinker
1 Cor. 16:9…because a great door for effective work has opened to me, and there are many who oppose me.
Opposition=opportunity
Also….
Galations 6: 9, 10
Let us not become weary in doing good, for a the proper time we will reap a hearvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity…..let us do good to all people…..
I think that each one has to make their decisions regarding what the world offers and how we will live for Christ……
Don't forget that all things work together for good, and that we are all gifted differently.
Good post, Thinker!
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 19 2009,16:26) Hi not3,
So dressing kids up as demons in a way of spreading the gospel?
NHYou know that is not what she is saying, yet you want to act like a child and make the comment!
WJ
Hi WJ,
You are american?
Surely at best this is a kids game so why are adults taking it so seriously and finding ways to justify it?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,18:43) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,22:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,11:58) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2009,19:54) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,11:11) Quote Didn't Jesus eat and drink with publicans and sinners? WJ, he could also read peoples hearts. You are not Jesus.
The Bible says: “God is not one to be mocked. Bad association spoils useful habits.”
Quote Didn't Jesus eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
WJ, do you hang out at the bar and preach to people there? Just curious.
Oh! I love this!!Okay, well, we can't read hearts and minds but Jesus was/is our example after all. Right? So if he ate with sinners then we can eat with sinners.
Um, ya, I've gone into bars to witness to people. I've also been seen at our local womens prison. A few times I've been on the streets of Seattle – in the gutters – under bridges.
You go where the people are, David. We are His arms and legs….we are Christs ambassadors. Through us, Christ is preached, people are healed, joy comes to the broken-hearted.
I have an overwhelming sense of peace right now that God has called me to the lowly…..the undesirables. Thank you, Lord. I'm right where I should be. So cool.
Most wouldn't be caught dead going into a bar to reach the souls there…… you're right, David.
Love,
Mandy
True MandyI have witnessed to men in bars also.
How is that sin, unless I am getting drunk with them?
I can imitate their drinking by having a coke!
WJ
Hi WJ:What if someone who knows that you are a Christian sees you going in a bar, and believes that you are going in there to drink since that is what those who frequent those places do?
Personally, I will not go into a bar to witness because of this, and also, because those who are drunk may react in many different ways. They might not take kindly to someone coming in there to witness to them.
The best way to witness is through the life that we live in obedience to the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyI am sorry, but to me your God is not big enough.
Jesus sat down and ate with publicans and sinners and we should be able to follow his footsteps right?
If I know a brother is watching and has a problem with me going into the bar then for conscience sake I will not go.
As far as a Christian seeing me, well I am not worried about there salvation for they are saved.
If they judge me then I will let God take care of that.
Should we live life to please men or God?
WJ
Hi WJ:I haven't judged you. I said that I personally do not go into a bar for the reasons that I mentioned. You can do whatever you want to do.
I also do not think that the owner of the bar would like you coming in there to witness because if they listened to you, you would be taking away some of his customers.
Yes, the scriptures state that Jesus ate and drank with sinners, and I also do that, but I won't go into a bar to witness.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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