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Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,12:06) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 16 2009,16:56) TO ALL: Our friend David has dug a deep hole for himself in citing Paul's statement “bad associations spoil useful habits” (1 Corinthians 15:33, NWT) as a rule against WJ. In his statement Paul was speaking specifically in reference to our keeping away from those who deny the resurrection. David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection. Therefore, David is himself a “bad association.”
Quote The Watchtower organization says that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the same body he died in (You Can Live Forever on Paradise Earth, p. 143-44). Instead, it says that He rose as a spirit creature and that the material body of Jesus was taken away by God the Father. Therefore, they deny the physical resurrection of Christ. http://www.carm.org/religio….n-jesus
That David denies the resurrection does not necessarily infer that he is wrong about halloween. It means that he also is a “bad association” and should not be judgmental of others.
thinker
You sure seem to derive some plaesure in slapping David, your tossing things at him that have nothing to do with this thread. You must dislike him.
CON,
I am trying to show you legalists how blind you are. For every time you judge someone from the law you are judged also from a point concerning the law. Yet you guys just keep on judging people.David took a statement from Paul and judged WJ when in its context that scripture judges David first.
You legalists just don't get it.
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2009,11:31) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 17 2009,09:17) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,09:02) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 16 2009,13:54) This thread was quite something to read. Thanks all.
Is that in a good light? Or a bad one? Hope its good. We did seem to veer off quite abit.
Con,Hi. I definitely have my own opinions. But I don't want to start something I can't finish due to time.
I did find Thinker's comment about “sexy” and the aftermath quite amusing.
The bottom line for me is that we should all be pursuing holiness and theosis: union with God.
I like to err on the side of “avoid the near occasion to sin” wherever possible. Life is so much freer and the air is so much easier to breath when we do that.
Hey CA,So you live in a bubble then?
Just razz'in ya. Still, “sin” lurks everywhere not just hidden in Halloween parties. Where can it be easier to not sin? Church? Sigh….some pastor's and clergy have had a hay-day sinning within the walls.
I dunno……
But I love your spirit! Have a great weekend.
A lot of PK's had the luxury of using this train of thought with their dad in mind. I didn't have this luxury. So…I have a glaring witness that holiness as a lifestyle is possible.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,19:02) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,01:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,11:44) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2009,19:27) Quote Where did WJ say that he “embraces” halloween? He said that October 31 is the Lord's day. The pagans do not own so much as one day of the year. –Thinker.
And how does he celebrate the “lord's day” Oct 31? Does he do it on his terms, or on THEIR terms? Does he imitate THEM? If you say he's not imitating them, then I ask, why that day? Why not Oct 14th? Or Nov 27th? He seems to be taking THEIR thing and trying to change it.
But taking a glass of poison and adding pure water does not make it pure. Or do you think it does?
DavidYou argument is circular.
You imitate many things the world does that is evil.
The world drives cars!
David drives cars!
David keeps the speed limit!
The world doesn't!
The world watches pornography on the internet.
David watches a video clip of his family on the internet!
The world sins david does not!
There are many more examples of men using things for evil that we can use for good! Get the point?
WJ
WJ, I get what you're saying.A knife can be used to spread butter, or it can be used to kill. I understand that. But I don't see this as a knife, something that has a common use and can be used this way or that. I see this as more of a bomb, built and designed by the enemy, with one purpose in mind. And you can wrap a bow on it, but it is still dangerous.
Quote There are many more examples of men using things for evil that we can use for good! Get the point? WJ, how do you feel about things being “tainted”? Is anything considered “in bad taste” in your mind?
DavidWhen you can explain to me how getting together with family and friends or meeting with a church group and dress up in bible charactors or play games and give kids candy is immoral or wrong then you have a point.
If it is only the day then again the argument fails because the day is the Lords and not mans as some here presume.
The Lord causes the sun to rise on the just and the unjust.
God created the days not man!
WJ
If he concedes the point his whole theology goes down the tubes. He's got a lot more at stake than you do.Apparently contradiction is not a problem for David to live with.
Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,12:05) Quote David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection. –Thinker.
Thinker, every time you repeat this lie, you sound dumb.
David,
I posted a source which shows you deny the resurrection. Therefore, you are bad company. So stop preaching to WJ about his alleged keeping bad company. You say I look dumb. You guys look both snub and dumb by making a big deal about pagan origins of things and all that. Who cares! It doesn't matter. This world and everything in it it and all days are God's just as WJ said.I am not trying to change the subject. I am trying to show that the finger of the law points at you too.
Paul said it was okay for us to eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not offend our brother (1 Cor. 8:10). The problem here is that the feet of you and Con and others are too “holy” to enter a pagan temple. And your hands are too “holy” to give a child a piece of candy.
You guys are self-righteous and are no different than the Pharisees that Jesus had to contend with.
thinker
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 17 2009,14:42) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 16 2009,20:07) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,12:53) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2009,10:30) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2009,10:24) Why would God declare some of His creatures unclean for food in the OT and all of a sudden declare them clean in the NT? Why then bother to declare them unclean at all.
This isn't the only thing God that has changed his mind on, so it doesn't surprise me.In the OT you couldn't even wear the clothes we have on our backs currently (cotton/poly blends)…… And according to Con, we still shouldn't be wearing them. Hey Con, what are you wearing right now?
I wonder if he keeps all the commandments, literally?
Oh, I'm getting ornery now….I better go.
Love to you all,
Mandy
Hi Mandy:I know that God changed His mind about punishing someone when they repented. Indeed, because He is merciful. But apart from that, “He says I am the LORD I Change not.”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
You are totally wrong. If God did not change then there would be no new covenant. Read Malachi carefully. It says that God changes not in reference to His promises. If God did not change in the sense you say then the Levitical priesthood would still be in force and animal sacrifices would still be offered.IF GOD DID NOT CHANGE THEN GENTILES WOULD STILL BE UNCLEAN
thinker
Hi thethinker:God did not change his mind about this it was his plan from the beginning:
Quote Rom 4:9 ¶ [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
You said that certain meats are still unclean because God doesn't change His mind. Then the Gentiles are still unclean. Women are still unclean during their menstral periods. “God does not change” you said.thinker
Quote (georg @ Oct. 17 2009,15:31) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,14:59) under this new age religion, are you allowed to drink blood? Yahweh's instruction on what to eat and not to eat……would you expect anything less from Father, he created us, would he not know what was best for us to eat and not eat.
Sabbath……..rest, from work, money matters seven more days till next Sabbath, i love Sabbath……if you have never tried it……..do, the most spiritual experience you will ever have, so much is learned, so much is asked, so much love and laughter, so many tears, nothing of the world is involved, no breaking up the day, preparing for Sabbath is like preparing for Christ to return.
Father, says in my house you rest a day out of the week, man says, no need to. Who rules? Once again, he created us, do you think his love only is spiritual for us, his creation, he knows how it works better than we do.
We are not under that law anymore, and as Gentiles we never were. It was a covenant that God made with Israel.
Exodus 31:16-17 :Therefor the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generation as a perpetual covenant.
verse 17 “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…….
When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God we too kept the Sabbath. We have learned a lot since then.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a free gift from God.
verse 9 not of works, lest you should boast.We are under a new covenant in
Luke 22:20…..”This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.”
In the old testament time, they had to make atonement for their sins and had to kill an animal for that.
Also if you want to keep te law, you have to keep the whole Law.
Romans 5:4 “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.Romans 5:3 And I testify again , to every man who becomes circumcised that you are debtors to keep the whole law.
Every man in the old Testament times became circumcised. Is that what you want to do too.
In today's society all boy babies do get circumcised, for cleanliness's only.
Peace and Love Irene
Hey Irene,
We agree on something.
thinker
Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 17 2009,15:35) Irene, to me, it is not a law, it is love.
kol tuv (all the best to you)
And you're free to keep the so called sabbath so long asyou don't impose it on others.thinker
David said:
Quote If you want to get into why I believe he was resurrected a spirit, fine. But this is obviously not the place, is it? David,
I agree that we should not discuss the resurrection here and I have not been trying to change the subject to the resurrection. I have been trying to show you that we may use the scriptures to indict you as you have indicted WJ.You said that I look “dumb” telling the “lie” that you deny the resurrection. But now you have admitted it. Thank you for your unwitting justification of me. Your view that Jesus was raised in a spirit is a denial of the resurrection and I offer to go at it with you in the “Debates” forum.
Here I am just trying to show that those who employ scripture to judge others as you have done to WJ have scripture that judges them too. Concerning your views on the resurrection I believe that you are “bad company” also.
thinker
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse:for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them….but that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,The just shall live by faith, and the law is not of faith:Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Gal3-10)! You are self-righteous if you believe that anthing you do or don't do makes you better or worse in the eyes of God! You have nothing to do with the righteousness God provided in Jesus. Its a free gift to those who BELIEVE! Some are making up works of sin to follow so as to make a showing of their righteousness. They would be under the curse of the law! That goes for all SIN. Jesus took away our sin by faith or one is under the law.TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 17 2009,22:04) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse:for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them….but that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,The just shall live by faith, and the law is not of faith:Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Gal3-10)! You are self-righteous if you believe that anthing you do or don't do makes you better or worse in the eyes of God! You have nothing to do with the righteousness God provided in Jesus. Its a free gift to those who BELIEVE! Some are making up works of sin to follow so as to make a showing of their righteousness. They would be under the curse of the law! That goes for all SIN. Jesus took away our sin by faith or one is under the law.TK
TK,
Amen bro! Good post! The modern day pharisees on this board are just touting their own self-righteousness as the pharisees in Jesus' day did by disfiguring their faces to appear to be righteous before men.David says that WJ is keeping “bad associations” by giving candy to kiddies on halloween citing Paul out of context. Paul was talking about keeping away from those who deny the resurrection. This necessarily infers that David and the JW's are a “bad association” because the JW's deny the resurrection. Of course they will not directly deny the resurrection. If they did that they could not successfully sell their ware. But their “sales pitch” amounts to a denial of the resurrection. This is why Paul said “be not deceived, bad associations corrupt good habits.”
Why didn't Paul say what he said in the controversy concerning eating meats in an idol's temple? Some Christians felt it was wrong. Others thought it was okay. So why didn't Paul say about eating in an idol's temple, “Bad associations corrupt good habits?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to say this. If Paul had it would have left WJ without an explanation as to why he would give out candy on a so called pagan day. Instead Paul said, “it's okay, but don't do it if it causes your brother to stumble.”
So my point is not about the resurrection. My point is that the law of God points the finger at each and every one of us so none of us should judge the other man's conscience. David took a statement from Paul and indicted WJ for giving away candy on a so called pagan day. I took the same statement from Paul and showed that David is indicted as well concerning a truth that is crucial to the Christian faith. The chief difference is that I used Paul's statement in context while David did not. The modern day pharisees must twist the scriptures in order to make up their rules just as the pharisees did in Jesus' day.
Paul said that he could eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not cause his brother to stumble. If Paul can eat in a pagan temple then WJ can give candy to kiddies on halloween.
Le'ts not let the 21st century pharisees defile our consciences. Hebrews says that our consciences have been washed with clean water (10:22).
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 17 2009,10:33) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 17 2009,22:04) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse:for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them….but that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,The just shall live by faith, and the law is not of faith:Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Gal3-10)! You are self-righteous if you believe that anthing you do or don't do makes you better or worse in the eyes of God! You have nothing to do with the righteousness God provided in Jesus. Its a free gift to those who BELIEVE! Some are making up works of sin to follow so as to make a showing of their righteousness. They would be under the curse of the law! That goes for all SIN. Jesus took away our sin by faith or one is under the law.TK
TK,
Amen bro! Good post! The modern day pharisees on this board are just touting their own self-righteousness as the pharisees in Jesus' day did by disfiguring their faces to appear to be righteous before men.David says that WJ is keeping “bad associations” by giving candy to kiddies on halloween citing Paul out of context. Paul was talking about keeping away from those who deny the resurrection. This necessarily infers that David and the JW's are a “bad association” because the JW's deny the resurrection. Of course they will not directly deny the resurrection. If they did that they could not successfully sell their ware. But their “sales pitch” amounts to a denial of the resurrection. This is why Paul said “be not deceived, bad associations corrupt good habits.”
Why didn't Paul say what he said in the controversy concerning eating meats in an idol's temple? Some Christians felt it was wrong. Others thought it was okay. So why didn't Paul say about eating in an idol's temple, “Bad associations corrupt good habits?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to say this. If Paul had it would have left WJ without an explanation as to why he would give out candy on a so called pagan day. Instead Paul said, “it's okay, but don't do it if it causes your brother to stumble.”
So my point is not about the resurrection. My point is that the law of God points the finger at each and every one of us so none of us should judge the other man's conscience. David took a statement from Paul and indicted WJ for giving away candy on a so called pagan day. I took the same statement from Paul and showed that David is indicted as well concerning a truth that is crucial to the Christian faith. The chief difference is that I used Paul's statement in context while David did not. The modern day pharisees must twist the scriptures in order to make up their rules just as the pharisees did in Jesus' day.
Paul said that he could eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not cause his brother to stumble. If Paul can eat in a pagan temple then WJ can give candy to kiddies on halloween.
Le'ts not let the 21st century pharisees defile our consciences. Hebrews says that our consciences have been washed with clean water (10:22).
thinker
JackGood points!
WJ
Tim Kraft………The Key is, obedience (UNDER THE WORKS OF LAW) THE definite article (THE) was added to the text, go look it up in an original Greek translation and you will not find the word (the) there. That changes the whole meaning of what Paul was saying, Let me try to explain it to you, LAW (works) only through the medium of fear and is a form of forced compliance, you don't obey you die or pay the price. If a person is obeying (UNDER FORCE) Which is what LAW, (forced compliance is). Then they are indeed under a curse. But we are to keep GOD commandments buy not being (FORCED Through the operation of LAW) but by the OPERATION of GOD SPIRIT. The question of should we obey the commandments that was not even PAUL'S point, it's (HOW) we obey is the point. Is it by (WORKS of LAW) or by (WORKS of GOD'S SPIRIT)> But either way it is Obedience. ” if you will enter into life keep the commandments” Jesus said. IMO
peace and love…………………gene
Hi Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 17 2009,10:33) Amen bro! Good post! The modern day pharisees on this board are just touting their own self-righteousness as the pharisees in Jesus' day did by disfiguring their faces to appear to be righteous before men.
The patronizing and condescending attitudes are telling also!Blessings Keith
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 17 2009,11:56) Tim Kraft………the Key is (UNDER THE WORKS OF LAW) THE definite article (THE) was added to the text, go look it up in an original Greek translation and you will not find the word (the) there. That changes the whole meaning of what Paul was saying, Let me try to explain it to you, LAW (works) only through Through the medium of fear and it forced compliance, you don't obey you die. If a person is obeying (UNDER the FORCE) Which is what (LAW forced compliance is). Then they are indeed under a curse. But we are to keep GOD commandments by not being (FORCED Through the operation of LAW) but by the OPERATION of GOD SPIRIT. the question of should we obey the commandments that was not even PAUL'S point, it's (HOW) we obey is the point. Is it by (WORKS of LAW) or by (WORKS of GOD'S SPIRIT)> IMO peace and love…………………gene
GeneWe do not agree on much but on this I agree.
2 Cor chapter 3 gives us a clear understanding of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant!
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: “against such there is no law“. Gal 5:22, 23
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 17 2009,00:58) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,12:05) Quote David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection. –Thinker.
Thinker, every time you repeat this lie, you sound dumb.
David,
I posted a source which shows you deny the resurrection. Therefore, you are bad company. So stop preaching to WJ about his alleged keeping bad company. You say I look dumb. You guys look both snub and dumb by making a big deal about pagan origins of things and all that. Who cares! It doesn't matter. This world and everything in it it and all days are God's just as WJ said.I am not trying to change the subject. I am trying to show that the finger of the law points at you too.
Paul said it was okay for us to eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not offend our brother (1 Cor. 8:10). The problem here is that the feet of you and Con and others are too “holy” to enter a pagan temple. And your hands are too “holy” to give a child a piece of candy.
You guys are self-righteous and are no different than the Pharisees that Jesus had to contend with.
thinker
You have it backwards, the pagan temple is to wicked for me to enter, and the candy is but a lure to gain entrance to that child (Zeh Mesukan).My goal is to enter Sha'arei Tziyon and not the Pagan Temple.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,12:32) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 17 2009,00:58) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,12:05) Quote David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection. –Thinker.
Thinker, every time you repeat this lie, you sound dumb.
David,
I posted a source which shows you deny the resurrection. Therefore, you are bad company. So stop preaching to WJ about his alleged keeping bad company. You say I look dumb. You guys look both snub and dumb by making a big deal about pagan origins of things and all that. Who cares! It doesn't matter. This world and everything in it it and all days are God's just as WJ said.I am not trying to change the subject. I am trying to show that the finger of the law points at you too.
Paul said it was okay for us to eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not offend our brother (1 Cor. 8:10). The problem here is that the feet of you and Con and others are too “holy” to enter a pagan temple. And your hands are too “holy” to give a child a piece of candy.
You guys are self-righteous and are no different than the Pharisees that Jesus had to contend with.
thinker
You have it backwards, the pagan temple is to wicked for me to enter, and the candy is but a lure to gain entrance to that child (Zeh Mesukan).My goal is to enter Sha'arei Tziyon and not the Pagan Temple.
ConIt seems your goal is to come under the law and bind as many men as you can with you!
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 17 2009,08:56) Tim Kraft………The Key is, obedience (UNDER THE WORKS OF LAW) THE definite article (THE) was added to the text, go look it up in an original Greek translation and you will not find the word (the) there. That changes the whole meaning of what Paul was saying, Let me try to explain it to you, LAW (works) only through the medium of fear and is a form of forced compliance, you don't obey you die or pay the price. If a person is obeying (UNDER FORCE) Which is what LAW, (forced compliance is). Then they are indeed under a curse. But we are to keep GOD commandments buy not being (FORCED Through the operation of LAW) but by the OPERATION of GOD SPIRIT. The question of should we obey the commandments that was not even PAUL'S point, it's (HOW) we obey is the point. Is it by (WORKS of LAW) or by (WORKS of GOD'S SPIRIT)> But either way it is Obedience. ” if you will enter into life keep the commandments” Jesus said. IMO peace and love…………………gene
They wont understand it.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2009,09:38) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 17 2009,12:32) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 17 2009,00:58) Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2009,12:05) Quote David is a JW and the JW's deny the resurrection. –Thinker.
Thinker, every time you repeat this lie, you sound dumb.
David,
I posted a source which shows you deny the resurrection. Therefore, you are bad company. So stop preaching to WJ about his alleged keeping bad company. You say I look dumb. You guys look both snub and dumb by making a big deal about pagan origins of things and all that. Who cares! It doesn't matter. This world and everything in it it and all days are God's just as WJ said.I am not trying to change the subject. I am trying to show that the finger of the law points at you too.
Paul said it was okay for us to eat meat in an idol's temple as long as it did not offend our brother (1 Cor. 8:10). The problem here is that the feet of you and Con and others are too “holy” to enter a pagan temple. And your hands are too “holy” to give a child a piece of candy.
You guys are self-righteous and are no different than the Pharisees that Jesus had to contend with.
thinker
You have it backwards, the pagan temple is to wicked for me to enter, and the candy is but a lure to gain entrance to that child (Zeh Mesukan).My goal is to enter Sha'arei Tziyon and not the Pagan Temple.
ConIt seems your goal is to come under the law and bind as many men as you can with you!
WJ
And your goal is to lure children with candy into the pagan temple.
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