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Thinker………..> why can't you see that, Peter was being shown to not call any Man common or unclean. That whole episode had nothing to do with clean and unclean meats at all. Just that who GOD cleans (humanely speaking) is clean, it is talking about Human beings, nothing else. WE can justify anything if we put our minds, i know i have done it before, But truth is we all need to try to see things the way GOD sees them and ask ourselves would GOD do that. I am not trying to judge anyone i have things still wrong in my own life also, but to try to turn these wrongs into right is a worse wrong and only serves to justify bad behavior. If we look at where and How these Halloween practices began and understand they are from PAGAN origins, Why have anything to do with them, how does that edify the body of Christ which is the Church of the living GOD. We are told to come out of these things and not to partake of them lest we recieve of there Plagues. Not saying we don't all stumble and fall at times, were all human beigns but we still need to get up and try to do better right? IMO
gene
Gene
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 15 2009,13:20) Thinker………..> why can't you see that, Peter was being shown to not call any Man common or unclean. That whole episode had nothing to do with clean and unclean meats at all. Just that who GOD cleans (humanely speaking) is clean, it is talking about Human beings, nothing else.
The vision has to do with the New Covenant and the lord showing Peter that in the New Covenant that all things are made clean because all the Law and its ceremonial observances is fulfilled in Christ. This means that circumcision as well as the eating of certain meats is not required any longer, and the acceptance of Gentiles into Christianity is part of the New Covenant.Why would the Lord use the example of the unclean beast to prove this point if he was not saying that the beast are clean also?
And why would God tell him to eat the meat and then tell him to not call it unclean?
Quote Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
”The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons”. Such teachings come through “HYPOCRITICAL LIARS”, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. “They forbid” people to marry “AND ORDER THEM **TO ABSTAIN FROM CERTAIN FOODS**, which GOD CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING by those who believe and who know the truth”. “FOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, and “NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED” if it is received with thanksgiving, because “IT IS CONSECRATED BY THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER”. If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, “brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed”. 1 Tim 4:1-6The vision is about all things being clean including the Gentiles being able to be saved!
WJ
WJ…….The lord used clean and unclean food because it was something Peter full well understood, and obeyed, He knew GOD full well made a distinction between what was clean and the unclean , and in fact that still exists. But what GOD has cleansed is no longer unclean and the is the point. This whole episode had to do with HUMAN Kind (NOT) animals in general. This was never given to justify bad behavior or to try to show everything is clean. If you believe that then go drink some pesticides and the reality will soon come home. What we are talking about here is the whole concept of Halloween and what it portrays to us and our childern and it is wrong, You full well know this or you would not be trying to dress it up and make it a teaching tool for your church. I Think what your doing is good in the sense you can by occasion turn some to Christ. But to use it for a tool to teach is one thing and to engage in it fully as a true festival is quite another at least you are trying to show it is wrong. WJ we should not justify this bad behavior and custom of PAGAN origins. Not saying you are. “For the customs of the people are vain”. IMO
peace and love………………..gene
Mandy……….I love you little girl, and mean you not harm sis, sorry if i offended you. It just the way i see it thats all. I have done all these things and more in my life. I know its harder with the kids and all when everyone else is doing it. When i first started not celebrating Christmas years ago and my Kids were little, they were all looking for Christmas with great expatiation of receiving Gifts and putting up the tree and gifts under it and Christmas morning when we would all open presents and have all the relatives over ever year. It grieved me so much to see those little heart let down from there expectations, that the next morning after Christmas I took my pickup and went to town and Brought so many presents i filled the whole back of the truck with them, I reasoned that day after was different , and giving gifts to your childern is a right thing to do. Needless to say they had a very happy day and them missing Christmas did not bother them at all after that. Ever person has to figure it out and with GOD Spirit guiding you mind i am sure you will come to the right conclusions. IMO
with much Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 15 2009,13:51) WJ…….The lord used clean and unclean food because it was something Peter full well understood, and obeyed, He knew GOD full well made a distinction between what was clean and the unclean , and in fact that still exists. But what GOD has cleansed is no longer unclean and the is the point. This whole episode had to do with HUMAN Kind (NOT) animals in general. This was never given to justify bad behavior or to try to show everything is clean. If you believe that then go drink some pesticides and the reality will soon come home. What we are talking about here is the whole concept of Halloween and what it portrays to us and our childern and it is wrong, You full well know this or you would not be trying to dress it up and make it a teaching tool for your church. I Think what your doing is good in the sense you can by occasion turn some to Christ. But to use it for a tool to teach is one thing and to engage in it fully as a true festival is quite another at least you are trying to show it is wrong. WJ we should not justify this bad behavior and custom of PAGAN origins. Not saying you are. “For the customs of the people are vain”. IMO peace and love………………..gene
GeneMy point is simply that men often are calling things unclean which are not.
The thing is, to them it is unclean!
My point is that legalism is bondage. Men even today like the Pharisees and the Sadducees will try to bind Gods people with heavy burdens of “thou shalt nots”.
I am not saying we have a license to sin, but what may be considered wrong or sin for one may not be true for another.
Some things are obvious, like the eating of certain meats that were forbidden but now are not!
But I do not think having an alternative for Halloween without partaking of its sins is wrong!
Just my opinion!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 16 2009,05:20) Thinker………..> why can't you see that, Peter was being shown to not call any Man common or unclean. That whole episode had nothing to do with clean and unclean meats at all. Just that who GOD cleans (humanely speaking) is clean, it is talking about Human beings, nothing else. WE can justify anything if we put our minds, i know i have done it before, But truth is we all need to try to see things the way GOD sees them and ask ourselves would GOD do that. I am not trying to judge anyone i have things still wrong in my own life also, but to try to turn these wrongs into right is a worse wrong and only serves to justify bad behavior. If we look at where and How these Halloween practices began and understand they are from PAGAN origins, Why have anything to do with them, how does that edify the body of Christ which is the Church of the living GOD. We are told to come out of these things and not to partake of them lest we recieve of there Plagues. Not saying we don't all stumble and fall at times, were all human beigns but we still need to get up and try to do better right? IMO gene
Gene,
I already replied to Con about Peter's vision. Paul said that “nothing is unclean of itself.” And WJ gave a real good passage,Quote The Spirit clearly says that in later times SOME WILL ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons”. Such teachings come through “HYPOCRITICAL LIARS”, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. “They forbid” people to marry “AND ORDER THEM **TO ABSTAIN FROM CERTAIN FOODS**, which GOD CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING by those who believe and who know the truth”. “FOR EVERYTHING GOD CREATED IS GOOD, and “NOTHING IS TO BE REJECTED” if it is received with thanksgiving, because “IT IS CONSECRATED BY THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER”. If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, “brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed”. 1 Tim 4:1-6 WJ's post destroys your legalist beliefs. Your are as the Judaizers with which the early Church had to contend.
TO THE PURE ALL THINGS ARE PURE!
If animals are still unclean then so are women during their menstral period. Go ahead and say it Gene. Say that women are unclean during a certain time of the month.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Con:
Quote You are acting like a novice! Exactly! Paul clearly said that “nothing is unclean of itself.” Old testament uncleanness was ceremonial alone. Nothing was unclean in itself. The whole idea is Gnostic. WJ has correctly pointed out that all foods are consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
thinker
WJ………I think you turning it into a teaching tool for Christ is both wise and good. Legalism can be a definite problem for all of us. But Halloween is not about clean and unclean foods. It about vain customs of People and there origins and practices, some little childern are horrified at these things. Its all about evil things and mysterious things and thing that can effect the minds of people in fantasies and untrue imaginations of things, spooks, devils, cadavers, blood lettings, cut off parts of bodies, witches, nightmarish presentations. Most adults know better, But little Children are horrified, and those with weak minds are also effected by these things. It's just (NOT) edifying the Body of Christ , “remember so a man thinks so he is”, we are told to think on thing that are lovely, of a good report and things that produce sound minds and bodies. Look I am (not ) putting anyone down as i have said i have done worse that these things in my life. I also believe if you can turn it into a teaching opportunity for Christ and the Church of GOD, that shown wisdom on your part. I personally believe you would not participate in the ritualism of Halloween. And i am not condemning anyone who does either, no one has made me judge over anyone. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Hi,
If there was ever any doubt as to the hold of tradition look at the vigorous defence of this irrelevant pagan tradition.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,20:20) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 15 2009,01:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 15 2009,07:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 14 2009,15:16) Jack,
Paul wrote of “impurity” in the very verse I quoted. So evidently there is such a thing as impurity for the christian. Our liberty in Christ is not a licence to sin. I have more to write on this but I have to dash to work.Blessings
Hi PaulI do not think I have ever disagreed with you even once.
But I don't see passing out candy to kids who have costumes on as sin either. I have given kids Bible tracts with their candy.
And I sure do not see anything wrong with parents or church groups having an alternative to the secular and worldy practice of it, for instance dressing as Bible Charactors and playing games as well as having candy!
Blessings WJ
I guess I have a different perspective to you brother. I live in a country where Halloween is a new (and unfortunate) importation. So it has not been intergrated into my culture and I have not become comfortable with it. I see it for what it is, an obscenity dressed up so as to be palitable to the masses. Look into it's origin.
Hi PaulOk, I can accept that! Surely I would not say you are wrong for obeying your conscience.
However for me when I read most of the post in this thread it seems to me to have the smell of “Legalism”, and a little hypocrosy!
I am not saying this of you brother, but there are plenty examples of the world inventing something and carrying it to extremes by using it for evil like in “Sports” or the “Internet”, or TV, and yet Christians are involved without sinning. For instance, some men worship football or basketball, yet many Christians partake without sinning by buying a game ticket or getting together with their friends on a Sunday evening to watch a game.
Paul said…
To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 1 Cor 9:22
The roots of Halloween here is not even understood and in fact is not even practiced by most unsaved.
So while the world is doing its thing, is it wrong for me or my church group to use that time for inspirational purposes and fellowship with our Christian children and showing the world that we are different without being legalistic about it?
Just my opinion! My conscience is clear and in fact washed by the blood of the Lamb.
“Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything“. 1 Cor 6:12
Bessings Keith
Keith and everyone,There is so much wisdom in this post. There IS freedom in Christ. Although many would love for us to be slaves again to the letter.
Freedom does not lead us to sin. At least I've never taken my freedom in Christ for granted. Sin is subjective then, is it not? For some it is sin to participate in celebrating/remembering the dead (keeping in mind we do this on another more acceptable holiday called, Memorial Day). For some it is sin to watch a football game on Sunday. The list goes on……
Who is able to tell me what is sin for me?
Some say celebrating Halloween is sin. The same would say it is a sin to watch pornography. I confess to doing both in my lifetime! With one I feel absolutely no guilt or proding from the Lord. With the other I felt extreme shame and the sense that I absolutely was not “pleasing the Lord”. So for me Halloween is okay, watching porn is not.
Whatever, I'm rambling here. Too much coffee this morning. Oh, and some think it's a sin to drink caffeine too!! Where does everyone get their strange rules and regs? You got it – from the very same book you do!
Love,
Mandy1.Galatians 2:4
This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
Galatians 2:3-5 (in Context) Galatians 2 (Whole Chapter)2.Galatians 5:1
[ Freedom in Christ ] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:1-3 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter)Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2009,06:46) Hi,
If there was ever any doubt as to the hold of tradition look at the vigorous defence of this irrelevant pagan tradition.
Nick,Have you ever watched the movie Braveheart?
It wasn't necessarily for land and power that the leader gave his life. He gave his life for freedom!
I know another person who gave his Son so that we could be free from the the world's view of sin. Thank God that he has set us free. We can eat anything we want to! We can enjoy anything we want to. We have the freedom to do it. You see, there are very few “rules” in the new plan. Follow your heart and love other's.
The Lord will know who's are his. If you love God, you will not seek what is evil. So it's ridiculous for people to say that participating in Halloween or Christmas is like participating in murder. God judges our hearts. Men love to judge what they can see and speculate.
5.1 Corinthians 14:25
and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2009,01:46) Hi,
If there was ever any doubt as to the hold of tradition look at the vigorous defence of this irrelevant pagan tradition.
Actually I rejected anything to do with Halloween for two decades, but God dealt with me on adding to scripture by labeling items as evil when they are neutral in themselves.I believe that the scripture to the “pure all thing are pure” applies to neutral items such as customs, music, food, etc. if at anytime one participates in something and they believe it may be wrong then they have violated their conscience and have put something between them and God.
Items violating the law of love for God and man, can never be pure and I don't believe that is what thinker is saying.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 16 2009,06:14) Mandy……….I love you little girl, and mean you not harm sis, sorry if i offended you. It just the way i see it thats all. I have done all these things and more in my life. I know its harder with the kids and all when everyone else is doing it. When i first started not celebrating Christmas years ago and my Kids were little, they were all looking for Christmas with great expatiation of receiving Gifts and putting up the tree and gifts under it and Christmas morning when we would all open presents and have all the relatives over ever year. It grieved me so much to see those little heart let down from there expectations, that the next morning after Christmas I took my pickup and went to town and Brought so many presents i filled the whole back of the truck with them, I reasoned that day after was different , and giving gifts to your childern is a right thing to do. Needless to say they had a very happy day and them missing Christmas did not bother them at all after that. Ever person has to figure it out and with GOD Spirit guiding you mind i am sure you will come to the right conclusions. IMO with much Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Gene, my brother, you have not offended me at all. You know I love you.I just think it's all kind of silly (no offense to you, now).
Whether or not you give your kids gifts on the 25th under a tree, or on the 26th around the kitchen table. What difference does it really make? I'm confused. As far as I can see, it only causes heartache to the children. Once again, a parent has gone through some religious experience and now has deemed something ungodly. Shaking head….. I think a lot of harm can come from this and I'm sorry to say it so harshly. I've seen it before with other families who have come to the same conclusion you have. Denying their families only to take up the tradition again later in life. Ridiculous. Why abandoned it in the first place? Fear of not obeying God?
Where does God say don't celebrate Christmas? Where does God say don't even participate in anything a Pagan has done? Truth be told, a lot of our other customs come from Pagan sources as well……things you'd be amazed at.
I just believe that Jesus came to free us from all of that. So what if Pagans did it?? Did they do it to honor Christ? It's sort of like a rock song being turned into a Christian song – you hear them sung in churches all over the country. Should that not be okay, too, because their the origins of the song were secular? Do you see how far you could take this line of reasoning? I do, and it's craziness.
Love,
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2009,07:02) Hi not3,
So american movies are our guide to truth?
No surprises there.
What a waste of a response, truly.Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2009,06:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2009,06:46) Hi,
If there was ever any doubt as to the hold of tradition look at the vigorous defence of this irrelevant pagan tradition.
Nick,Have you ever watched the movie Braveheart?
It wasn't necessarily for land and power that the leader gave his life. He gave his life for freedom!
I know another person who gave his Son so that we could be free from the the world's view of sin. Thank God that he has set us free. We can eat anything we want to! We can enjoy anything we want to. We have the freedom to do it. You see, there are very few “rules” in the new plan. Follow your heart and love other's.
The Lord will know who's are his. If you love God, you will not seek what is evil. So it's ridiculous for people to say that participating in Halloween or Christmas is like participating in murder. God judges our hearts. Men love to judge what they can see and speculate.
5.1 Corinthians 14:25
and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”Love,
Mandy
Amen Not3in1,You know, God made a kingdom out of a child that was born through adultery.
What was done in evil, God made good.
If we are heirs to God's glory are we not allowed to do the same as brothers in christ?
If you really knew what it took to create the computer…who knows if people were murdered or killed for the creation of the PC or a Car or the Television…Yet you all use these items?
Would it be a hidden sin that we all are committing and not repenting for?
I don't think God is that particular
He is when it comes to committing a sin you know is wrong, but if halloween is practiced today as a simple pasttime, and we're not out lynching and killing people on that day…then why be so particular about it?
I refuse such a holday like Christmas because, it celebrates santa, which that name is a prononym for Satan…who is suppose to be my child's God…
Also refuse the notion that it is to celebrat Christ's birth…when the focus should be on his Death…
But that won't stop me from giving my family gifts and take the time to love and care for one another.
I believe in this day and age, it's all about righteous intent.
Through christ we have the abilitiy to make what was once evil, into something good.Because really, 2 thousand years later…Halloween has lost it's meaning!
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 16 2009,07:02) Actually I rejected anything to do with Halloween for two decades, but God dealt with me on adding to scripture by labeling items as evil when they are neutral in themselves.
THANK YOU!!!Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 16 2009,07:08) Mandy,
Even some of the old classic hymns were put to tunes from bar songs
Yes, and getting drunk is a sin and so……those hymns must be abolished!! Anyone who sings them is sinful!
Oh dear…..
Nick said:
Quote Hi,
If there was ever any doubt as to the hold of tradition look at the vigorous defence of this irrelevant pagan tradition.Nick,
It's not about defending a pagan tradition in my estimation. It's about defending Christian liberty. Haven't you been listening?
See for yourself what this has led many to say here. We are being told now that we can't eat certain meats. Those who deny Christian liberty in one area end up reviving old covenant regulations. Gene and Con are trying to revive the Levitical codes and all that stuff.
How can the Levitical codes be revived when there is no Levitical priesthood to administrate them? That priesthood went out with ALL its codes and the revival of the codes implies the revival of the priesthood. Since Christ's priesthood has replaced the Levitical priesthood, and He is a priest “forever” we can be sure that the entire Levitical order with its priests and its codes will not be revived.
Paul said that we could eat meat in a pagan temple if it did not cause our brother to stumble (1 Cor. 8). How could passing out candy to children be worse?
IT'S ABOUT OUR FREEDOM IN CHRIST. It's not about defending anything pagan.
thinker
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