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Isaiah 44:6 says
Quote Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and His blood-relative redeemer, YHWH of hosts: I am the first and I am the last The word “blood-relative redeemer” is the Hebrew “goel” which means “kinsman” or “blood-relative”. YHWH speaking prophetically identified Himself as Israel's blood-relative redeemer. Who was Israels' blood-relative that was also their redeemer? It's a no brainer. It was Jesus without a doubt. Therefore, YHWH in Isaiah 44:6 is Jesus.
Furthermore, YHWH, Israel's “goel” said also “I am the first and the last.” Jesus made this claim of Himself in the Revelation. I am intrigued as to how non-trinitarians will explain Isaiah 44:6. Will they go so far as to say that the Father was prophetically speaking of Himself. If so, then they would have to say that the Father became flesh.
thinker
thinker………Jesus is the first (raised from the dead and changed into a Spirit being) the same as the last will be. So He could easily say i am the first and the Last in that context. . Jesus is our kinsmen redeemer because He is exactly the same as us in every way, And being the same as us and a kinsman to us He has the right to be a kinsman redeemer just as any kinsman does according to the law. Establishing Him as a kinsman redeemer has nothing to do with him being YHWH brother.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………gene
Gene said:
Quote Establishing Him as a kinsman redeemer has nothing to do with him being YHWH brother. Gene,
You say that my establishing Jesus as kinsman redeemer has nothing to do with Him being YHWH? Let's read the text again without any presuppositionsQuote Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and his Kinsman Redeemer, YHWH of hosts; I am the first and the last; besides Me there is no God 1. Jesus was the King of Israel
2. Jesus was Israel's Kinsman and Redeemer
3. Jesus claimed to be the first and the last.Gene,
Show from Scripture where Christ's Father claimed to be Israel's Kinsman or King. Nathanael said to Jesus:Quote You are the Son of God. You are the King of Israel Did Jesus correct Nathanael? Did Jesus say, “Hey, wait a minute, I am not the King of Israel.” NO! Jesus replied,
Quote Truly, truly I say to you, hereafter you will see heaven open, and ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” So Gene, tell us how Jesus could reward Nathanael with such a glorious promise if his confession was false.
The Father was not Israel's Kinsman-Redeemer. Neither was the Father Israel's King. Show from Scripture where the Father claimed these titles for Himself. And I will show you where the Father gave these titles to Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus is YHWH in Isaiah 44:6
2 +2 = 4
thinker
thinker ………Show were Jesus at the time of that statement was ever King of Israel. I can show you where the LORD GOD was the king of Israel though. In fact I can show you were he is King over all the earth and rules in the kingdoms of men. Thinker Jesus has now recieved the kingdom of his Father David. But you can see that Jesus will turn over the Kingdom to GOD the FATHER that GOD the FATHER may in all and through all. AS Corinthians plainly says. 1 Co 15:28 …> “and when all things shall be subdued unto Him (Jesus) then shall the SON also himself be subject unto him that put all things under Him, that GOD may be all in all. Here is also some help, “who so overcomes i will grant to sit in (my) Kingdom , even as i have overcome and have sit down in my (Fathers) Kingdom.” Two Kingdom's one of Israel then to DAVID and then Jesus and the Back to GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. A time will come when the Son will turn his kingdom back to the Father as scripture says and himself become obedient to the Father.Tell us how could this be If He himself is YHWH.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Thinker said to Gene:
Quote Show from Scripture where Christ's Father claimed to be Israel's Kinsman or King. Gene replied:
Quote Show were Jesus at the time of that statement was ever King of Israel Gene Gene Gene! Go back to my original statement. I said this,
Quote YHWH speaking prophetically identified Himself as Israel's blood-relative redeemer. What is the key word in my statement Gene? I said that YHWH spoke prophetically. YHWH spoke prophetically saying
Quote I am your blood-relative redeemer Gene,
Show from Scripture where YHWH/the Father was Israel's blood-relative redeemer.Acts 20:28 says,
Quote Feed the flock of God which He has purchased with His own blood Show from Scripture where the Father spilled His own blood.
thinker
Thinker …………….In this since was Jesus the Fathers Blood, Jesus put his will to death and yielded himself to GOD the Father and as a result His blood was the Father Blood to do with it as He (the FATHER) seen fit. But to think that the Father was the flesh and blood Jesus, is a error brother. We see Jesus as a Lamb of God not as a GOD brother, God the FATHER sacrificed His Lamb Jesus for the sins of the whole world. He even now appears as a SLAIN LAMB before the throne of GOD. The Slain part of this is very important, because something Slain is (DEAD) and Jesus is Still DEAD (to HIMSELF) and only does the (WILL of GOD ) Having put HIS WILL TO DEATH, He Now has the SEVEN POWERS (HORNS) AND SEVEN EYES (SPIRIT INTELLECTS) OF GOD in him. This is the way i see it brother.
love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene said:
Quote But to think that the Father was the flesh and blood Jesus, is a error brother. I never said that the Father was the flesh and blood of Jesus. I have no idea what you'r talking about. I asked you to show where the Bible says this. And since we both agree that the Jesus is NOT the Father in the flesh then YHWH-Kinsman-Redeemer in Isaiah 44:6 is prophetic of Jesus,
Quote Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and His blood-relative redeemer, YHWH of hosts: I am the first and I am the last thinker
Thinker ….I think is see the problem here, You believe that where it says thus says the (Lord), the King of Israel and His redeemer the LORD of HOSTS is equating the same Person. Then do you believe David was referencing the same Person when He said the LORD said unto My LORD sit on my right Hand until i make your enemies your footstool. as both Lords the same LORD. There are many Lords thinker but only ONE LORD GOD> AS Jesus QUOTED brother. IMO
love and peace to you and yours brother………………………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 12 2009,15:03) Isaiah 44:6 says Quote Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel, and His blood-relative redeemer, YHWH of hosts: I am the first and I am the last The word “blood-relative redeemer” is the Hebrew “goel” which means “kinsman” or “blood-relative”. YHWH speaking prophetically identified Himself as Israel's blood-relative redeemer. Who was Israels' blood-relative that was also their redeemer? It's a no brainer. It was Jesus without a doubt. Therefore, YHWH in Isaiah 44:6 is Jesus.
Furthermore, YHWH, Israel's “goel” said also “I am the first and the last.” Jesus made this claim of Himself in the Revelation. I am intrigued as to how non-trinitarians will explain Isaiah 44:6. Will they go so far as to say that the Father was prophetically speaking of Himself. If so, then they would have to say that the Father became flesh.
thinker
Hi TTExcellent point.
There is also more info about this Biblical truth found in the following links…
Blessings!
WJ
Hi all!
Here is more Biblical evidence that Jesus is the God of the OT, YHWH.
Jude 4, 5: For certain men have secretly slipped in among you – men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe – ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and “who deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.NET Bible Commentary on Jude 5: ” The reading *Ihsou'” (Ihsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy strong support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 vg et alii), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they typically exchanged kuvrio” (kurios, “Lord”) or qeov” (qeos, “God”) for *Ihsou'” (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading qeoV” Cristov” [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for *Ihsou'”). As difficult as the reading *Ihsou'” is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.
sn (1:5) The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp's rule (see tn (1:5) on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.”The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators’ notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators’ notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator’s shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible’s truth from entirely new perspectives.
Blessings! WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2009,17:52) Hi all! Here is more Biblical evidence that Jesus is the God of the OT, YHWH.
Jude 4, 5: For certain men have secretly slipped in among you – men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe – ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and “who deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.NET Bible Commentary on Jude 5: ” The reading *Ihsou'” (Ihsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy strong support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 vg et alii), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they typically exchanged kuvrio” (kurios, “Lord”) or qeov” (qeos, “God”) for *Ihsou'” (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading qeoV” Cristov” [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for *Ihsou'”). As difficult as the reading *Ihsou'” is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.
sn (1:5) The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp's rule (see tn (1:5) on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.”The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators’ notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators’ notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator’s shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible’s truth from entirely new perspectives.
Blessings! WJ
Hey Wj,
I checked it out and was very impressed just from reading the rendering of John 1. I will be referring to it frequently.thanks,
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 17 2009,16:39) Thinker ….I think is see the problem here, You believe that where it says thus says the (Lord), the King of Israel and His redeemer the LORD of HOSTS is equating the same Person. love and peace to you and yours brother………………………………..gene
Gene,
I noticed that you put the first reference to YHWH in the lower case (Lord). But it is in the upper case (LORD) both times in our English translations and is the word YHWH both times in the Hebrew text.YHWH is Israel's King and Kinsman-Redeemer (Jesus), and also the YHWH of hosts.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,20:26) Hi WJ,
Is Jesus his own father?
NHHere is a stupid question for you…
“Are you human like your Father”?
Get the point?
WJ
WJ…………Jesus said God was a Spirit, then said He was not a Spirit remember, “For a Spirit has not flesh and bone as you see i Have”. So there must be a difference right. And why would God say and I (SHALL) be a FATHER unto Him and He Shall be a SON unto ME, if He already was a SON of GOD.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 21 2009,10:31) WJ…………Jesus said God was a Spirit, then said He was not a Spirit remember, “For a Spirit has not flesh and bone as you see i Have”. So there must be a difference right. And why would God say and I (SHALL) be a FATHER unto Him and He Shall be a SON unto ME, if He already was a SON of GOD. peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Gene,
The Father and Son language is metaphor. The Scripture says that God begat the Son at the resurrection (Heb. 1:1-5). Does this mean that Jesus was not the Son of God before that? And how do you explain the fact that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not the Father?You are reading your western ideas into ancient hebraic thought.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2009,09:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2009,20:26) Hi WJ,
Is Jesus his own father?
NHHere is a stupid question for you…
“Are you human like your Father”?
Get the point?
WJ
Hi WJ,
What is the connection between a shared human nature among people and Jesus being the SON of God?Do you believe he is God rather than God's son?
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 21 2009,11:21) Quote (Gene @ Mar. 21 2009,10:31) WJ…………Jesus said God was a Spirit, then said He was not a Spirit remember, “For a Spirit has not flesh and bone as you see i Have”. So there must be a difference right. And why would God say and I (SHALL) be a FATHER unto Him and He Shall be a SON unto ME, if He already was a SON of GOD. peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Gene,
The Father and Son language is metaphor. The Scripture says that God begat the Son at the resurrection (Heb. 1:1-5). Does this mean that Jesus was not the Son of God before that? And how do you explain the fact that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not the Father?You are reading your western ideas into ancient hebraic thought.
thinker
Hi tt,You say Heb 1 says God begat His son at the resurrection?
Heb1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rather it says he BROUGHT HIS SON into the world.
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