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BD,
Thanks for your response.
Since God is all powerful, He can have an eternal offspring within Him if that is part of His perfection. He is perfect and lacking nothing.you said:
Quote Why would God need an “offspring” and who would he make this offspring with and if He would make it by Himself again what would be the point ince God could create whatever HE wants when HE Wants. Why would God need anyone else to have an offspring of His own and why would couldn't the offspring be eternal? You are thinking according to the flesh. Yet, even some creatures can make their offspring without a partner, i.e. asexual reproduction. Did you realize that 1/2 of what makes up 'you,' was in your mother as long as she had been alive before she begat you? God could have 100% of what constituted an offspring as long as He has existed which has been eternally.
You ask what would be the point of having an offspring to God. I say, why not? God's only begotten Son is sharing the glory of creation and redemption with His Father. You seem to assume that He was not necessary for this, I don't. Have you considered that God's perfection includes a Father With a Son and a Spirit that can extend from them?
Do you think that God was able to create before His first creative act? If yes, I would agree. He was always able to create because He has always had what it takes to do so. If He always was a creator even before He created anything, He could always have been a Father before He begat an offspring for the same reason of always having what it takes to do so. Begat can simply mean 'brought forth' as in the idea of 'born' in the case of begetting an offspring. Every member here on HN existed before they were born/begotten. I believe that the only begotten Son existed eternally before He was begotten. He existed within the Father and was begotten from the Father. I don't see any reason why He couldn't have always existed within the Father unless I limit God to be bound by laws of nature which He isn't.
You say that something could never be an eternal offspring because if it is eternal it is not an offspring. Well, I say, the whole idea of an eternal being eludes our finite mind and so we really can't say what an eternal being or an eternal offspring is or isn't. We are guessing at best. I would think that an eternal offspring would have to be a part of an eternal parent though. Certainly the eternal offspring would not bring forth his own parent but it would be the eternal parent that would bring forth the eternal offspring. One would be the begetter and the other the begotten. That alone would designate one as the Father and the other as the Son, or parent/offspring.
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 14 2012,09:55) Hmmm. Interesting you say that Jesus was not Created but begotten and yet the word begotten means to cause or create. Second: something could never be an eternal offspring because if it is Eternal it is not an offspring
Both good points, Asana.Quote (Lightenup @ May 15 2012,10:14) BD,
Thanks for your response.
Since God is all powerful, He can have an eternal offspring within Him if that is part of His perfection. He is perfect and lacking nothing.you said:
Quote Why would God need an “offspring” and who would he make this offspring with and if He would make it by Himself again what would be the point ince God could create whatever HE wants when HE Wants. Why would God need anyone else to have an offspring of His own and why would couldn't the offspring be eternal? You are thinking according to the flesh. Yet, even some creatures can make their offspring without a partner, i.e. asexual reproduction. Did you realize that 1/2 of what makes up 'you,' was in your mother as long as she had been alive before she begat you? God could have 100% of what constituted an offspring as long as He has existed which has been eternally.
You ask what would be the point of having an offspring to God. I say, why not? God's only begotten Son is sharing the glory of creation and redemption with His Father. You seem to assume that He was not necessary for this, I don't. Have you considered that God's perfection includes a Father With a Son and a Spirit that can extend from them?
Do you think that God was able to create before His first creative act? If yes, I would agree. He was always able to create because He has always had what it takes to do so. If He always was a creator even before He created anything, He could always have been a Father before He begat an offspring for the same reason of always having what it takes to do so. Begat can simply mean 'brought forth' as in the idea of 'born' in the case of begetting an offspring. Every member here on HN existed before they were born/begotten. I believe that the only begotten Son existed eternally before He was begotten. He existed within the Father and was begotten from the Father. I don't see any reason why He couldn't have always existed within the Father unless I limit God to be bound by laws of nature which He isn't.
You say that something could never be an eternal offspring because if it is eternal it is not an offspring. Well, I say, the whole idea of an eternal being eludes our finite mind and so we really can't say what an eternal being or an eternal offspring is or isn't. We are guessing at best. I would think that an eternal offspring would have to be a part of an eternal parent though. Certainly the eternal offspring would not bring forth his own parent but it would be the eternal parent that would bring forth the eternal offspring. One would be the begetter and the other the begotten. That alone would designate one as the Father and the other as the Son, or parent/offspring.
Once again you say God lacks nothing and I agree, therefore if God lacks nothing it also meas he does not need to have offspring.Now don't get me wrong I believe that God loves us as if we were His children but God does not Multiply He is God Alone.
Gd does not share HIS Glory even when He gives glory to another such as Jesus and even Jesus understands this when teaching us in prayer to say:
Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.David understood this as well:
1 Chronicles 29:11-12
King James Version (KJV)
11 Thine, O Lord is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
So there is THE GLORY of GOD and the glory that God gives to another but THE GLORY of GOD is never anyone elses including Jesus
Isaiah 42:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
The problem with your theory is if you say that God has an eternal offspring in which he begets then that offspring would infact also have eternal offspring if he is infact in the exact image of his Father. The truth is God does not beget nor is he Begotten in the trues sense of those words. God simply creates He just says let there be light and there is light. so He simply says BE and it is There is no need to hav an infinite eternal child within Himself because if that were true who would have put that child there if you say God did the offspring is not eternal.
Hi BD,
Again, thank you for responding.you said:
Quote
Once again you say God lacks nothing and I agree, therefore if God lacks nothing it also means he does not need to have offspring.Ah, but our perspective is so limited. Perhaps God lacks nothing because His only begotten offspring and His Spirit have always been a part of Him and within Him until brought forth.
Quote Now don't get me wrong I believe that God loves us as if we were His children but God does not Multiply He is God Alone. Jehovah/Yahweh is both God and Lord (and always was). For Christians, there is one God and one Lord and that speaks of two persons; both were involved in creation and redemption. 1 Cor 8:6
Quote
Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.David understood this as well:
1 Chronicles 29:11-12
King James Version (KJV)
11 Thine, O Lord is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
So there is THE GLORY of GOD and the glory that God gives to another but THE GLORY of GOD is never anyone elses including Jesus
In your verse in 1 Chronicles, the 'O Lord' refers to Jehovah/Yahweh who is both God and Lord. We find out in the NT that we have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
As for:
Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.BD, Jesus also has the kingdom, He is the power of God, and refers to the glory that He had with the Father. Two persons own the kingdom, power and glory…Jesus is speaking to the one who was in heaven in His prayer, the One in whom He reigns over the kingdom with.
John 18:36
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”1 Cor 1 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Quote
Isaiah 42:8King James Version (KJV)
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
In the verse found in Isaiah, the 'Lord' is actually Jehovah/Yahweh and Jehovah/Yahweh is both God and Lord. Jehovah/Yahweh is the Father and the Son as a unity of two persons, one God and one Lord.
Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah/Yahweh) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Quote The problem with your theory is if you say that God has an eternal offspring in which he begets then that offspring would infact also have eternal offspring if he is infact in the exact image of his Father. The truth is God does not beget nor is he Begotten in the trues sense of those words. God simply creates He just says let there be light and there is light. so He simply says BE and it is There is no need to hav an infinite eternal child within Himself because if that were true who would have put that child there if you say God did the offspring is not eternal. The Son is the exact representation of the Father's nature not the Father's position. A son is an image of his father whether or not He is a father himself. You say that the truth is “God does not beget” in the truest sense of the words. How do you know this BD? How do you know how an eternal being would beget an offspring…a true offspring and then how do you know that He didn't do that? You lean on opinion, BD.
In fact you are full of opinions on this matter yet you speak as though they are absolutes. You say, “God simply creates He just says let there be light and there is light.” Can you even explain that simple act…what is that light, BD?
Also, you say, “There is no need to hav an infinite eternal child within Himself because if that were true who would have put that child there if you say God did the offspring is not eternal.” If the offspring is eternal, He was always there within the Father and there would not have been a need to have been put there. Who put the Father wherever He was? He was always there, no need for anyone to put Him somewhere either.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 15 2012,00:08) BD, Jesus also has the kingdom……….. Two persons own the kingdom…………….
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
27 Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
This passage doesn't describe a Kingdom that is equally owned by two. It describes a Kingdom owned by One, who for a time put another in charge, and will later take back the reigns of His own Kingdom while that other returns to being a subject of the King.
If they are truly co-equal owners, why is one of them later ousted from ownership?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2012,12:39) Quote (Lightenup @ May 15 2012,00:08) BD, Jesus also has the kingdom……….. Two persons own the kingdom…………….
1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
27 Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
This passage doesn't describe a Kingdom that is equally owned by two. It describes a Kingdom owned by One, who for a time put another in charge, and will later take back the reigns of His own Kingdom while that other returns to being a subject of the King.
If they are truly co-equal owners, why is one of them later ousted from ownership?
Hi MikeYou know I started to respond to the post that was addressing me but your response was so clear. concise and quite frankly totally correct I didn't need to respond.
Not only that you summed up that whole point in a much quicker route than I would have taken.
God Bless!
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 15 2012,02:55) Of course God can create a man to do something that He Himself cannot do. God IS ALL Powerful and IMMORTAL Man is not ALL Powerful or Immortal, God cannot be Gay can He? There are tons of things that men can do that God cannot do.
Why would God need an “offspring” and who would he make this offspring with and if He would make it by Himself again what would be the point ince God could create whatever HE wants when HE Wants.
Second: something could never be an eternal offspring because if it is Eternal it is not an offspring
Quote (Sura 6 @ 101) 'How can He have a son when He hath no consort?'
Hi BD,Is that why 'al-Lah' has no consort, because 'al-Lah' is gay?
B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)Quote (bodhitharta @ May 15 2012,22:56) Not only that you summed up that whole point in a much quicker route than I would have taken.
I have lost my gift of gab – probably due to too many long debates with Francis, Keith, and Jack.Ok, guys, what kingdom is being spoken of that Jesus hands over…there are more than one mentioned in scripture. Please back up your answer with scripture. Thanks!
I always assumed Paul was speaking of the Kingdom of God, which is now in heaven:
Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.Notice how the Kingdom belongs to God, and God has given Jesus authority over His Kingdom…………..for a time.
Kathi, what kingdom do YOU think Paul was referring to……….and why? Also, why would it even matter? No matter which kingdom it is, it still speaks of One who OWNS the Kingdom, and one who is put in a position of authority over it for a limited time, after which that one will subject himself to the King of the Kingdom. So, no matter how you slice it, I can't see how it would speak of TWO co-equal owners of a kingdom.
Mike,
I have not studied this to the nth degree but I believe that it is likely the kingdom of the darkness that the Son, according to his High Priest/Mediator role, was given reign over and He destroyed the powers of that kingdom so that the only kingdom that remained was where God (as a unity of Father, Son, and their Spirit) was always reigning…past, present & future. The Mediator reigned until all the powers were destroyed and then the Mediator returned the kingdom that was of darkness, to God, God in His fullest sense…Father with Son and their Spirit.Satan offered to give Him this kingdom in the wilderness and Jesus passed up the offer in order to receive it at the proper time that was according to the will of His Father…after He conquered death.
5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Obviously this 'kingdom' that satan has had authority in, had to be taken down before God (Father + Son + their Spirit) could be all in all, i.e. the only power and authority.
Before the Son as Mediator was given that kingdom to rule, He already had a kingdom that was not of this world.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”
That kingdom that is not of this world is the one where both the Father and Son reign. The Son is always subject to the Father but that doesn't make them not equally God natured or not in a unity.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2012,09:44) Tacky, Ed.
You see Mike this is who says they represent God, How is he considered a Christian or for that matter a believer in God at all? I will never respond to his posts again it is truly time for me to shake the dust off my feet with him.The sad part is this site supports him and all his divination just because he tickles t8's ears about how he believes in Jesus and t8 cannot even see
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.ED is an insult and mockery of this entire forum where down is up and up is down. The TRue believers are put down and the true deceivers, back biters, name callers are given carte blanche.
God bless you Mike but I am out of here I can't be in a place where evil is just allowed to run loose with no checks, where a person can alter the bible , alter your post and insult other Christians without even a minor chastizing this is ED's Heaven.
I may return to post in general but to me ED will gt no more of my attention he is currently a lost cause.
Hi BD,
I have never insulted you and you know it.
I suggest that you read 1Kings 18:24,27.יהוה חאלהים (JEHOVAH GOD)
עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)Hi BD,
Here are some things you have said to me in the past…
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,12:56) Ed is totally blind by his ambition for self-importance. Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 08 2010,09:22) you constantly are being dishonest. Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,13:56) You are deep in Sin Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 08 2010,09:22) you hate God Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 08 2010,12:03) why lie to him? Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 10 2010,14:07) You have beared false witness Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,04:10) You should repent bearing False Witness…(How evil) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2010,16:17) you will never be fit to be a witness Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2010,12:59) you are living in delusion Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 08 2010,09:05) What a hypocrite. Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,13:56) you are truly lost Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 04 2010,04:51) you will be kept in the dark. B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)Quote (bodhitharta @ May 19 2012,09:00)
You see Mike this is who says they represent God, How is he considered a Christian or for that matter a believer in God at all?
I will never respond to his posts again it is truly time for me to shake the dust off my feet with him.
Hi BD,Here is another example of you putting 'spin' on what is written in the bible.
You shake the proverbial dust off your feet where you are no longer welcome.B'shem, יהוה (YÄ-hä-vā)
עד (Ed) (Joshua 22:34)Quote (bodhitharta @ May 18 2012,16:00) God bless you Mike but I am out of here I can't be in a place where evil is just allowed to run loose with no checks…………..
YOU and I and ALL OF US are the “checks”, Asana. If you let another poster drive away the scriptural truth you speak, then you have lost and the other poster
has won. (That is not to say that I agree everything you believe is scriptural truth, nor that everything Ed believes is false.)If you've had enough, then that's good enough for me. But when I read your words, I tried to imagine Paul, speaking in the synagogues week in and week out, with the majority of the Jews twisting scripture against him, smack talking about him, and even beating, stoning, and trying to kill him.
And I wondered how things would be different if he had decided that he could no longer stay in a place where these kinds of things happened.
May THE GOD (Allah/Jehovah) bless you through His Son Jesus Christ,
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2012,21:26) Mike,
I have not studied this to the nth degree but I believe that it is likely the kingdom of the darkness that the Son, according to his High Priest/Mediator role, was given reign over and He destroyed the powers of that kingdom so that the only kingdom that remained was where God (as a unity of Father, Son, and their Spirit) was always reigning…past, present & future. The Mediator reigned until all the powers were destroyed and then the Mediator returned the kingdom that was of darkness, to God, God in His fullest sense…Father with Son and their Spirit.
So Jesus will reign over the Kingdom of Darkness for a while, and then hand the reigns of that Kingdom back to God Almighty, so that God Almighty will rule over it?
Hmmmmm………..
Is there a particular scriptural teaching that causes you to doubt that 1 Cor 15 and Rev 12 refer to the Kingdom of God?
I mean, what scripture exactly put this Kingdom of Darkness theory in your head in the first place?
Mike,
Rev 11:1
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
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