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Hi TT,
The Spirit does not teach beyond the revelation of Christ but reminds us of those words.[Jn14-16]
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy[Rev19]New ideas that go beyond scriptural revelation are not from the Spirit of God.
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,11:30) Thinker said: Quote The present tense verb “revealed” has no reference to past action in the Greek or in any language.
Seeking replied:Quote Bold statement without fact or foundation. Granted, I only studied Koine Greek for two years, still I will restate:the Greek present tense differs from ours in that it speaks of what was, is now, and will be in the future, as far as point in time. blessings,
thinker
Thinker,Manipulating again?
Quote Do you meant to say that God has not finished revealing His gospel message and that there is more revelation to come? If this is the case then none of us can be sure what the gospel is because there is more to come in the future. I need not say more.
You nicely substitute, again, gospel for mystery. What the Greek language by its tense is saying is that -yes Nick –
the message of salvation has been revealed in the past, it is being revealed now, and unless the Lord comes It will be revealed in the future. Not changed, as you imply, but revealed.Yes Thinker, the gospel – mystery – salvation – etal all
has been preached, is being preached, and someone somewhere will preach it later. So don't fret, we have it all,
always have had.You need to say a lot more if your circumlocution is to ever fly.
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote You nicely substitute, again, gospel for mystery. What the Greek language by its tense is saying is that -yes Nick –
the message of salvation has been revealed in the past, it is being revealed now, and unless the Lord comes It will be revealed in the future. Not changed, as you imply, but revealed.What??? I never implied that the gospel will change. I said that Paul is the “final” word on the content of the gospel. Paul said that his gospel was “kept secret” from all ages but was “revealed” to him.
Isaiah had his own gospel message from God and Jesus had His own gospel message from God. Paul too had a gospel message from God and it is the FINAL gospel for all ages. Please don't misrepresent me on this subject again.
cordially,
thinkerQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,15:31) Please don't misrepresent me on this subject again. cordially,
thinker
Thinker,Thank you for the gentle spirit in your response. If I misunderstood you and misrepresented you, I stand corrected and I do apologize.
I was certain you have said in the past Paul said his gospel
was “new.” Now I am undestanding you to say it was completely package to Jesus and the “newness” came in further revealing of the contents to Paul and even to Peter
with his “sheet experience”.Is this more correct?
Blessings,
Seeking
Seeking,
I am saying that Paul's gospel was new. But you said I am saying that the gospel will “change”. You said:Quote that What the Greek language by its tense is saying is that…the message of salvation has been revealed in the past, it is being revealed now, and unless the Lord comes It will be revealed in the future. Not changed, as you imply, but revealed. I have been saying that the content of the gospel had changed from Jesus to Paul but that Paul's gospel is the final gospel for all men of all ages. Were you saying that I assert that the gospel continues to change?
It was revealed to Paul that justification is by faith alone. This had not been revealed any man before Paul. Though the preaching of this continues til now it was revealed once and for all to Paul. So I make a distinction between “revealed” and “preached”. We do not “reveal” the gospel when we preach it. When we preach it we are giving men God's final revelation.
thinker
Hi TT,
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.Paul the anointed teacher revealed the depths of the gospel of God.
Hi TT,
You say
“. I said that Paul is the “final” word on the content of the gospel.”But then you tell us he had a new gospel??
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 03 2009,01:33) Seeking,
I am saying that Paul's gospel was new. But you said I am saying that the gospel will “change”. You said:Quote that What the Greek language by its tense is saying is that…the message of salvation has been revealed in the past, it is being revealed now, and unless the Lord comes It will be revealed in the future. Not changed, as you imply, but revealed. I have been saying that the content of the gospel had changed from Jesus to Paul but that Paul's gospel is the final gospel for all men of all ages. Were you saying that I assert that the gospel continues to change?
It was revealed to Paul that justification is by faith alone. This had not been revealed any man before Paul. Though the preaching of this continues til now it was revealed once and for all to Paul. So I make a distinction between “revealed” and “preached”. We do not “reveal” the gospel when we preach it. When we preach it we are giving men God's final revelation.
thinker
Quote I am saying that Paul's gospel was new. But you said I am saying that the gospel will “change”. Perhaps I am missing your flow. Is it, Jesus carried the gospel to Jews basically introducing salvation via obedience to the law. Later, it was revealed to Paul that salvation would be by grace via faith.
You say above, Paul's gospel was new. To my way of thinking new replaces old, thus we have change.
Thus, I saw you implying that the gospel had changed, not will
change.Quote I have been saying that the content of the gospel had changed from Jesus to Paul but that Paul's gospel is the final gospel for all men of all ages. So I heard you right! When one changes content they change the whole, don't they? If I drop food dye into clear water it changes and is not like it was. Again, I saw you saying the gospel had been changed at least from Jesus to Paul.
On Jan.31st you wrote –
Quote Paul said that his gospel was revealed to him by Christ. If Christ revealed the whole gospel truth in the days of His flesh, then why would He reveal more truth to Paul? And why did Jesus say to His disciples, “I have more to say to you but you can't bear it now. But when the Holy Spirit comes He will guide you into all truth”? I would agree with this entirely. To me, what you said here is that Jesus had the whole gospel complete in content and opened further to Paul what had not been opened prior. I have rehearsed this before regarding Paul's receiving and understanding of the “mystery” of salvation for Gentile as well as Jew. My contention is that Paul received nothing “new” regarding content, only difrection- to the Gentiles.
So, here is where I see a contradiction in what you have written:
Quote Paul said that his gospel was revealed to him by Christ. If Christ revealed the whole gospel truth in the days of His flesh, then why would He reveal more truth to Paul? I have been saying that the content of the gospel had changed from Jesus to Paul but that Paul's gospel is the final gospel for all men of all ages.
If Christ revealed it, it was in existence but not revealed. If the content changed from Jesus to Paul It was not known prior. Thus, as I understood you to say” the gospel changed” as I said you said.
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote You say above, Paul's gospel was new. To my way of thinking new replaces old, thus we have change.
Thus, I saw you implying that the gospel had changed, not will
change.Yes! The gospel changed (from Jesus to Paul). I thought you were charging me with saying that the gospel will change again. I was not saying that. Paul's gospel is God's FINAL revelation to all mankind on how to become just before God. That message is FAITH ALONE now.
Paul said that in the gospel the righteousness of God was being revealed from heaven out of faith into faith (Rom. 1:16-17).
This means that the content of faith changed. Jesus taught “repent and be baptized”. Paul taught that justification was altogether apart from the law (Rom. 3:21).
This is how we are to understand Paul's “out of faith INTO faith” statement:
Jesus: Repent and be baptized
Paul: Apart from the law
yours,
thinkerHi thethinker:
And so, are you saying that the Apostle Paul did not baptize people in water because he made the following statement:
Quote 1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
942767………water makes you wet, the Spirit of GOD we received From Jesus make us right with the FATHER. Now what would you rather be wet or right with the FATHER. Just that simple. IMO
peace…………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2009,10:28) 942767………water makes you wet, the Spirit of GOD we received From Jesus make us right with the FATHER. Now what would you rather be wet or right with the FATHER. Just that simple. IMO peace…………………gene
Hi Gene:You are not in right standing with the Father if you are wilfully disobeying his commandments.
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 04 2009,10:04) Hi thethinker: And so, are you saying that the Apostle Paul did not baptize people in water because he made the following statement:
Quote 1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Marty,
Paul baptized while baptism was still in effect. The baptisms he performed were before he was imprisoned. While in prison he received direct revealtion from Christ that justification was now “apart from the law” (Rom. 3:21)He learned also that obedience was now to be rendered according to the spirit of the law:
Quote But NOW we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6) Jesus anticipated that the time was coming that the worship of God would change from the letter to the spirit.
Quote But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24). Jesus merely anticipated that worship would change over from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law. But He did not expound upon it. He gave the exposition to Paul while he was in prison.
Jesus: Repent and be baptized (letter of the law)
Paul: Faith alone (spirit of the law)
blessings,
thinkerMarty said:
Quote You are not in right standing with the Father if you are wilfully disobeying his commandments. Marty,
This is a bold statement you make. Jesus said that the true worshiper worships the Father in the spirit:Quote But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth You should never say that a man is not right with God. God is the Judge. If you tell Gene he is not right with God he could come back and say that you are not a “true” worshiper of God. You should heed the warning to the Hebrews to leave the “elementary principles” of Christ and to NOT lay again that foundation..
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,11:20) Marty said: Quote You are not in right standing with the Father if you are wilfully disobeying his commandments. Marty,
This is a bold statement you make. Jesus said that the true worshiper worships the Father in the spirit:Quote But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth You should never say that a man is not right with God. God is the Judge. If you tell Gene he is not right with God he could come back and say that you are not a “true” worshiper of God. You should heed the warning to the Hebrews to leave the “elementary principles” of Christ and to NOT lay again that foundation..
thinker
Hi thethinker:Jesus put it this way:
Quote Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And 1 John puts it this way:
Quote 1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.And I was't judging Gene in this matter. I was saying that anyone who is wilfully disobeying the commandments of God is not in right standing with God. This is what the Word of God states.
And so, yes, I can make a bold statement when it is the Word of God.
942767……….. Where did GOD the FATHER tell me to be water baptized. John said I indeed baptize with WATER, (BUT) he who cames after Me will Baptize with Fire and Spirit, thats the Baptism i believe in. How is that, not following GOD'S Will. John even said to Jesus i have of being Baptized by YOU. Do you think He meant water baptism. And you were, imputing Judgment to me by what you said. IMO
peace…………………..gene
Nick………Yes i have read acts and as you have been shown here clearly, that what happened there and took place was in transition and you fail to acknowledge it , But Paul and others grow to see it over time, and you should also.
peace……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 04 2009,13:05) 942767……….. Where did GOD the FATHER tell me to be water baptized. John said I indeed baptize with WATER, (BUT) he who cames after Me will Baptize with Fire and Spirit, thats the Baptism i believe in. How is that, not following GOD'S Will. John even said to Jesus i have of being Baptized by YOU. Do you think He meant water baptism. And you were, imputing Judgment to me by what you said. IMO peace…………………..gene
Hi Gene:If the Word of God convicts you, then it is not I who is judging you but the Word of God:
Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness These were Jesus instructions to the Apostles upon his resurrection:
Quote Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen
Throughout the Acts of the Apostles, believers are baptized in water and the book of the Acts of the Apostles is the only book in the new testament which does not end in the words: “Amen” or so be it, therefore the Acts of the Apostles is an ongoing book because the gospel and the Acts of God will go on until the Lord comes for the church.
What excludes you from being baptized in water?
The Apostle Peter said the following to Cornelius and those who were with him after they had received the Holy Ghost:
Quote Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain daysThe word “forbid in verse 10:47 has the following meaning:
Quote 1) to hinder, prevent forbid 2) to withhold a thing from anyone
3) to deny or refuse one a thing
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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