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Nick………you will trust Jesus and reject the Father, forgetting who is really in charge of (ALL) things, And trust me it is GOD the Father.
You bow to Jesus for Jesus' sake, i bow to the Glory of the FATHER thats, the difference , Jesus is your GOD even if you don't admit it, Why don't you ever talk about the Father , JESUS certainly did all the time. While we are to Honor Him we certainly are not to replace the Father with Him. You remind me of those who run to Jesus and say “in your mane” we did all these works. “Worship GOD and Him ONLY shall you serve”. Let's talk a little more about the Father at least once and a while Nick. Remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) by Himself. That is a very important thing to keep in mind it the FATHER who GETS all the GLORY For EVERYTHING. Let not forget HIM.love and Peace to you and yours……………………………..gene
NIck………And if we are of Christ shouldn't we also be doing what Jesus Did and Glorify the FATHER as HE did. Remember He said not evey one that says unto me Lord Lord, shall enter the Kingdom, but He who does the will of the FATHER. So calling Jesus Lord and Preach Him as Lord doesn't cut it. “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BESIDES ME”. Lets never forget the NICK, Jesus is a WORK of GOD not a WORK of JESUS>We honor Jesus to the (GLORY) of GOD.
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
GB,
Who is WE?
This site is a window on the world.
Jesus needs to be preached where carnal men search for conciliation with God.Nick……….Jesus is the way to the (Father) , so lets also Preach the FATHER as our Brother Jesus did and Lets also Glorify The Father like Jesus did , if we say we are of Christ lets act and preach as He did, right. That we might also draw all men to the FATHER. Nick remember Paul said He Preached Jesus as Crucified, think about that and what that means. Jesus is our example of How to Please the FATHER. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………gene
Gene said:
Quote Nick…………God did not give (ALL) authority to Jesus Because God is the only one who has (ALL) authority, Jesus authority is only in subjection to GODS WILL ,Jesus did not Chose Paul, GOD did as Paul himself Plainly said. Gene,
I agree with Nick on this one. Jesus' submission to His Father is beside the point. His Father gave Him ALL authority and therefore anything Jesus did was in the name of His Father and also sanctioned by His Father.What Nick can't understand is that Christ was exercising His authority by choosing Paul. Christ was exercising His authority by revealing the new gospel to Paul. Yet Nick's reply is “Is Christ divided”?
thinker
Gene said:
Quote While we are to Honor Him we certainly are not to replace the Father with Him. Gene,
You might consider taking this to the Trinitarian thread. BTW, Jesus said that all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father (John 5). So be careful.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2009,08:47) Hi TT,
What new gospel?
Do you think there are several kingdoms of God to be offered to men?
Nick,
How could you ask me “what new gospel” when I have expounded Paul's faith alone gospel since I joined this board? Now come on! If you don't like Paul's new faith alone gospel then refute it. But please stop being coy about it. You know exactly what I have been saying.thinker
Hi TT,
Where did Paul say he offered a NEW gospel?Paul did not offer any new gospel.
He spoke harshly about those who do in Gal1.
So we should not try to make his words into a new gospel.Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.thinker………..1 Cor 15:27….> For he hat put all things under his feet; (BUT) when he saith all things are put under him it is manifest (obvious) that he (GOD) is excepted, which did put all things under HIM. This is my Point The Father is the true Head of all things and we should never forget that, as some have and replaced the FATHER with Jesus. Committing Idolatry. IMO. and Jesus confirms this Himself. This Idolatress State will be the first act Jesus will abolish at His return, 2Thes, the man of sin is Jesus being turned int a GOD. We are to honor Jesus to the GLORY of GOD, not to the GLORY of Jesus as nearly all Christendom does today. Paul said He was delievered from the womb for the work of God, Jesus did (NOT) all Paul or convert HIM, GOD the FATHER did. IMO
love and peace to you and yours………………………gene
GB,
You seem to put aside the lordship of Jesus.
The vine seems to take a lower place in your view
You would try as an individual branch to please the Gardener?Jn15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
We need to be known as his disciples.
God works through His chosen and anointed one.We are nothing and can do nothing so boasting is anathema.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 02 2009,11:49) Hi TT,
Where did Paul say he offered a NEW gospel?Paul did not offer any new gospel.
He spoke harshly about those who do in Gal1.
So we should not try to make his words into a new gospel.Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Nick,You missed the verse that follows Romans 1:16Quote For I am not ashamed pf the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is being revealed from faith to faith. Note Paul said “is being revealed”. This means that Paul's gospel had not been revealed before then.
Quote But NOW the righteousness of God apart from the law IS BEING REVEALED…through faith in Jesus Christ (3:21). Paul said that the gospel he preached was “NOW” being revealed. This means that Paul's gospel was NEW. I have given these statements before Nick. I guess I will have to keep repeating it for you.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,02:58) Note Paul said “is being revealed”. This means that Paul's gospel had not been revealed before then. Paul said that the gospel he preached was “NOW” being revealed. This means that Paul's gospel was NEW. I have given these statements before Nick. I guess I will have to keep repeating it for you.
thinker
Thinker,I am really trying to piece things together as you do and understand.
RO 1:16-17 NIV I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
The KJV states” the gospel of Christ” but of Christis not in the original text as you know, I'm sure. In the above text the gospel speaks of a righteousness from God that is revealed. “Revealed, in the Greek text is written in present tense which differs from our present tense.
I'm sure you know all this – maybe not – but Greek present tense refers to something that was begun in the past, carries on now, and will carry ino the future. So, there is nothing “new” about any of that.Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,02:58)
Thinker,I am really trying to piece things together as you do and understand.
RO 1:16-17 NIV I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
This text is saying that in the gospel a righteousness from god is being revealed it is not saying a new gospel is being revealed. Revealed is in the Greek present tense as you must know. You also must know that the Greek present tense differs from ours in that it speaks of what was, is now, and will be in the future, as far as point in time. So, again,
we have nothing new here as far as never existing before.Then you share with us Rom.3:21 ” RO 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.”
That text speaks of the revelation of a righteousness from god once again. It says of “it” the righteousness contained withiin the gospel is being made known. Its being now made known does not speak of it as new, never existing before. In fact the text says both the law and the prophets testified to it, though it may not have been understood. I am striving to grasp your new gospelthing but I just don't see it in these texts.
I have said before that the mystery or newness Paul had revealed to him at his conversion was plainly identified by him,
EPH 3:2-6 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
As you so amptly pointed out “I have given these statements before Nick (thinker). I guess I will have to keep repeating it for you.
And I will keep trying to get a handle on your ides of Paul's new gospel.
Seeking
Nick…….truly Jesus is the vine and we the branches , but the vine as well as the branches gets it life from what flows through it , and what flows through is Spirit and it Produces the fruit and that Spirit is from one GOD. The life is not the vine , the life is what keep the vine alive. and that is (ONLY) God the FATHER. Therefore Jesus says He can do (NOTHING) of himself, He full well knew it was the Father who gives Him (the vine) as well as Us (the branches) its life. Be like and preach what Jesus Preached (the FATHER). Here is something to think about , Paul said He preached CHRIST and HIM (CRUCIFIED). Now the question is do we preach Jesus as Paul did. The greatest thing we can give other is to show how and in what way was Christ (CRUCIFIED), was it when he died on the cross or was it his putting himself to death all his life and the cross was just the end of that process. You see Nick we need to preach Christ as Crucified as Paul did ,and we as well as the world can see we need to put ourselves to death also. The key to salvation is not about Jesus the person, but what Jesus did in obedience to the FATHER, and what we must do also. That is the GOSPEL Showing people what Jesus did and how He did it. So we can also be Crucified with Him, and if we be Crucified with Jesus we shall also be raised with Him. Just looking at Jesus and worshiping Him and Glorifying Him will not cut it, we must become as He is by the same power that enabled Him to put his will to death we to must. Salvation is not about the person, its the example of the person Jesus the Christ gave us. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 03 2009,00:30) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,02:58) Note Paul said “is being revealed”. This means that Paul's gospel had not been revealed before then. Paul said that the gospel he preached was “NOW” being revealed. This means that Paul's gospel was NEW. I have given these statements before Nick. I guess I will have to keep repeating it for you.
thinker
Thinker,I am really trying to piece things together as you do and understand.
RO 1:16-17 NIV I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
The KJV states” the gospel of Christ” but of Christis not in the original text as you know, I'm sure. In the above text the gospel speaks of a righteousness from God that is revealed. “Revealed, in the Greek text is written in present tense which differs from our present tense.
I'm sure you know all this – maybe not – but Greek present tense refers to something that was begun in the past, carries on now, and will carry ino the future. So, there is nothing “new” about any of that.
Greetings Seeking,
The majority text says “the gospel of Christ. The NU text just says “gospel” or “glad tidings”. But it doesn't matter for the discrepancy presents no doctrinal problem to us. The present tense verb “revealed” has no reference to past action in the Greek or in any language.In 3:21 Paul said that it was “NOW” being revealed. And in 16:25 Paul referred to the gospel as “MY gospel”,
Quote Now to him who is able to establish you according to MY gospel…according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret…but now being made manifest…. Paul told the Ephesians that the gospel he preached was HIS knowledge and that before him it had been hidden,
Quote …by which, when you read you may understand MY knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it NOW has been revealed…. (3:1-4). The Father chose Christ to reveal the gospel in “piece meal”. After Christ was given “all authority” He in turn chose Paul to give the full blown gospel. Christ explicitly said that Paul was His “chosen vessel” (Acts 9:15). And Paul said that Christ had revealed this [full blown gospel] to him.
Therefore, Paul is the final word on matters of faith and justifiactaion and service to God. And he said that we were delivered from the letter of the law so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit,
Quote But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to it, so that we should serve in the NEWNESS of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). Jesus only hinted at this new concept of worshiping God in spirit. He prepared the people for it but did NOT expound upon it. He told the woman at the well that the time was coming for the worship of God in spirit (John 4). But he did not explain this new idea to her. Jesus gave the explanation of spirit worship to Paul. And Paul said that we are done with the letter of the law. We know that Jesus said that the letter of the law would not pass until all was fulfilled. “Not one jot or tittle” He said.
But Jesus fulfilled it by His death and intercession. And after that He chose Paul to explain it. Therefore, Paul's gospel is the everlasting gospel.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,09:51)
Thinker,You said,
Quote The majority text says “the gospel of Christ. The NU text just says “gospel” or “glad tidings”. But it doesn't matter for the discrepancy presents no doctrinal problem to us. This could readily present a problem for the “new”
gospel theory if we chose to adopt, “the gospel of Christ” as if it was “of Christ' it wasn't new with Paul.Quote The present tense verb “revealed” has no reference to past action in the Greek or in any language. Bold statement without fact or foundation. Granted, I only studied Koine Greek for two years, still I will restate:the Greek present tense differs from ours in that it speaks of what was, is now, and will be in the future, as far as point in time. So, again,
we have nothing new here as far as never existing beforeQuote In 3:21 Paul said that it was “NOW” being revealed. And in 16:25 Paul referred to the gospel as “MY gospel”, Quote Now to him who is able to establish you according to MY gospel…according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret…but now being made manifest…. You sort this differently than I can see in the texts you keep
referencing. What I see as now being revealed is the mystery – not a section of the gospel. You agree without realizing it! Look at the text you cited above (according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret…but now).You then wrote –
The Father chose Christ to reveal the gospel in “piece meal”. After Christ was given “all authority” He in turn chose Paul to give the full blown gospel. Christ explicitly said that Paul was His “chosen vessel” (Acts 9:15). And Paul said that Christ had revealed this [full blown gospel] to him. Therefore, Paul is the final word on matters of faith and justifiactaion and service to God.This is very strong assumption that, at least in my mind, you have not supported as you have not supported your theory of
“NEW” and “REVEALED” IMO.Next you entertain John 4 and explain it as follows –
Jesus only hinted at this new concept of worshiping God in spirit. He prepared the people for it but did NOT expound upon it. He told the woman at the well that the time was coming for the worship of God in spirit (John 4).Having the text before us may we look at it –
Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:21-24Here is what I see. The Samaritans worshipped what they “did not know.” Jews worshipped, “what we do know”.
Jesus said, ” a time is coming and has now come” So, then and now, True worshippers worship in spirit and truth. Then some stood on mountain tops while others worshipped. Now, some sit in pews while othes worship.I'm still working to see it your way, but your using pieces of scripture and substituting Gospel for mystery and vice versa,
making emphatic statements about the Greek and other languages that don't match with what Greek language scholars have taught me, etc. does not help give credence to what you say.Seeking
Thinker said:
Quote The present tense verb “revealed” has no reference to past action in the Greek or in any language.
Seeking replied:Quote Bold statement without fact or foundation. Granted, I only studied Koine Greek for two years, still I will restate:the Greek present tense differs from ours in that it speaks of what was, is now, and will be in the future, as far as point in time. Do you meant to say that God has not finished revealing His gospel message and that there is more revelation to come? If this is the case then none of us can be sure what the gospel is because there is more to come in the future.
I need not say more.
blessings,
thinker
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