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Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 25 2009,12:36) The point is violence is not always evil and it is condoned “to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil” according to the scriptures any denial of this is to deny the scriptures completely. But, I ask once again would anyone here standby and watch a village of women and children be raped, sodomized and tortured? Would you just sit there and pray or would you fight?
You know, I might not fight.It depends on the situation – if one has a reasonable expectation of success without too many casualties, then clearly fighting has a far stronger case in favour.
Additionally if there is some emotional tie to the people who are being attacked, there is a stronger case to fight. With no such tie however, it is entirely my choice if those people have anything to do with me or not.
I'm surprised nobody seems to have yet argued that it makes sense to stand by (presumably in hiding) in order to survive until afterwards, and then to try to help the victims who are left alive – since I'd have thought that a pretty decent (morally at least) response in the face of superior force. If you fight and die, you can help nobody afterwards.
I wouldn't, however, pointlessly throw away my life when there are other people now or later who will need what I can do with it.
There are too many people living today to help them all today, and I'd try to take the same advice I give someone else with his starfish – choose wisely.
Here is a Catholic view of the Iraq war:
http://centerforchristiannonviolence.org/downloa….War.pdf
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 25 2009,12:36) But, I ask once again would anyone here standby and watch a village of women and children be raped, sodomized and tortured? Would you just sit there and pray or would you fight?
OF COURSE ID FIGHT!!(That is a good question it had me thinking today).
Hello, CatholicApologist,
On the Catholic Church:
“The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” – Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.
Does this apply for today? Just curious thats all.
Trying to follow do's and don't's is confusing as to which commandment takes priority however all the commandments are summed up in love. We are told, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” sometimes it is not possible and love requires that we protect the defenseless.
I believe another problem is that in our time many are attempting to be nicer than God. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” achieving peace sometimes requires violence but the only motivation that should drive us to it is love.
My opinion
While I sincerely doubt that God ordered the particular violent acts called on in the OT, I do view that violence or perhaps better termed destruction is part of God's plan. Whenever we have creation in a temporal world we need also to have destruction or nothing will change. When things, ideas, anything get old, decrepit they stand in the way of evolution and progress. If you want to build something new, sometimes you have to destroy the ruins of what was there before, if not the world becomes a great garbage heap that chokes growth. The pagan religions knew this very well for though, like Christians, they had their demons and devils they also had evil gods as well, their Plutos and Hecates, their Kalis and Shivas. Why were these gods and not demons? Because they served their pantheons not as forces of chaos and opposing divine will as the demonic, but as the scavagers of the gods, cleaning out the outworn, the obstacles to what they viewed as divine direction. In Jewish mysticism one of the eminations of the Godhead is called Gevurah, and represents God's severity and judgement and is viewed in this light as well. Destruction, in a limited material world, is a necessary counterweight to creation.
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 25 2009,23:49) While I sincerely doubt that God ordered the particular violent acts called on in the OT, I do view that violence or perhaps better termed destruction is part of God's plan. Whenever we have creation in a temporal world we need also to have destruction or nothing will change. When things, ideas, anything get old, decrepit they stand in the way of evolution and progress. If you want to build something new, sometimes you have to destroy the ruins of what was there before, if not the world becomes a great garbage heap that chokes growth. The pagan religions knew this very well for though, like Christians, they had their demons and devils they also had evil gods as well, their Plutos and Hecates, their Kalis and Shivas. Why were these gods and not demons? Because they served their pantheons not as forces of chaos and opposing divine will as the demonic, but as the scavagers of the gods, cleaning out the outworn, the obstacles to what they viewed as divine direction. In Jewish mysticism one of the eminations of the Godhead is called Gevurah, and represents God's severity and judgement and is viewed in this light as well. Destruction, in a limited material world, is a necessary counterweight to creation.
Which seems a very sensible observation, and to which I would only add – why distinguish violence and destruction wrought through a human agency (conflict) from a non human agency (an earthquake)?I have a question, like the village postulated by bodhitharta, but a little more complicated, which I'd be interested to know people's genuine considered answers to. This question is far more likely to become pertinent to you later on.
Let us suppose that you, and your children are starving to death. You know that if you do not find food soon, you and your children will die.
A nearby family has a little food, enough that they are not yet starving and yet not a great deal.
You ask nicely if they can spare some, and you are told they can not, for then they will have no food next week and they do not know where to get more after that.Do you:
a) Walk away, knowing it means the death of you and your children
b) Fight for some food, to save your children, because it's unfair that they die while others have foodI tell you now, almost everyone in reality will pick b), even though that is the worst outcome. Even the “Christians” among you will probably not hand out your food if you think it will mean your own children dying of starvation sooner as a result.
So, in the end, would one turn to violence to save your own children, even though no violence is being threatened to them?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 25 2009,12:36) The point is violence is not always evil and it is condoned “to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil” according to the scriptures any denial of this is to deny the scriptures completely. But, I ask once again would anyone here standby and watch a village of women and children be raped, sodomized and tortured? Would you just sit there and pray or would you fight?
Yes I would fight, and I have plenty of guns and ammo to do it.This topic is interesting.
Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
God has determined every nation and it's boundaries. So what does that tell us? Think about it!
God controls natural resources, He has strategically placed certain resources in certain nations KNOWING FULL well what would transpire between men over those resources. We follow our nature, and God controls the nature around us, which in turn causes us to do certain things. Nations fall and other nations rise, it is all done through the planning of God. Thus wars come and go, and they then, as well, occur under the planning of God.
If someday the United States was fully attacked, and it was kill or be killed where I live, unless told otherwise by some godly intervention, I would certainly take up arms and defend my family, neighbors and friends.
Quote “The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” – Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142. What is this? Please provide a source link somewhere online so we can verify this isn't something cooked up by a money grubbing fake who is making a living off of feeding people's conspiracy theories about the CC.
BTW, it's spelled “Ecclesiastical”
To All…………”You have heard that it has been said , you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: because he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those them which love you what reward have you? do not even the Publicans the same? and if you salute your brethern only, what do you more than others do? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is Perfect.
Peace and love to you all……………….gene
Quote (karmarie @ Aug. 25 2009,20:39) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 25 2009,12:36) But, I ask once again would anyone here standby and watch a village of women and children be raped, sodomized and tortured? Would you just sit there and pray or would you fight?
OF COURSE ID FIGHT!!(That is a good question it had me thinking today).
May God Bless you forever! For you those who try to save their life will lose it.Quote (Douglas @ Aug. 26 2009,06:08) Quote (Cato @ Aug. 25 2009,23:49) While I sincerely doubt that God ordered the particular violent acts called on in the OT, I do view that violence or perhaps better termed destruction is part of God's plan. Whenever we have creation in a temporal world we need also to have destruction or nothing will change. When things, ideas, anything get old, decrepit they stand in the way of evolution and progress. If you want to build something new, sometimes you have to destroy the ruins of what was there before, if not the world becomes a great garbage heap that chokes growth. The pagan religions knew this very well for though, like Christians, they had their demons and devils they also had evil gods as well, their Plutos and Hecates, their Kalis and Shivas. Why were these gods and not demons? Because they served their pantheons not as forces of chaos and opposing divine will as the demonic, but as the scavagers of the gods, cleaning out the outworn, the obstacles to what they viewed as divine direction. In Jewish mysticism one of the eminations of the Godhead is called Gevurah, and represents God's severity and judgement and is viewed in this light as well. Destruction, in a limited material world, is a necessary counterweight to creation.
Which seems a very sensible observation, and to which I would only add – why distinguish violence and destruction wrought through a human agency (conflict) from a non human agency (an earthquake)?I have a question, like the village postulated by bodhitharta, but a little more complicated, which I'd be interested to know people's genuine considered answers to. This question is far more likely to become pertinent to you later on.
Let us suppose that you, and your children are starving to death. You know that if you do not find food soon, you and your children will die.
A nearby family has a little food, enough that they are not yet starving and yet not a great deal.
You ask nicely if they can spare some, and you are told they can not, for then they will have no food next week and they do not know where to get more after that.Do you:
a) Walk away, knowing it means the death of you and your children
b) Fight for some food, to save your children, because it's unfair that they die while others have foodI tell you now, almost everyone in reality will pick b), even though that is the worst outcome. Even the “Christians” among you will probably not hand out your food if you think it will mean your own children dying of starvation sooner as a result.
So, in the end, would one turn to violence to save your own children, even though no violence is being threatened to them?
We are not to transgress our boundaries and people have the right to refuse you their food or resources so if we die being Just so be it, for as we live for God we die in God.But, if we were the people with the food I would not turn them away I would let us all eat what we have out of faith but if we all should die we would have died in good faith.
Today men are lovers of themselves.
Quote Here is a common objection that I would like to discuss. Jesus told his disciples to return their swords to their place. He said to “love your enemies.”
The Belgian newspaper La Dernière Heure relates that during the war Roman Catholic Cardinal Amette of Paris said this to the French soldiers:
“My brothers, comrades of the French army and of their glorious allies, the Almighty God is on our side. . . . God is near to our brave soldiers in battle, he gives them strength and fortifies them against the enemy. . . . God will give us the victory.”
At the same time, on the other side, the Catholic archbishop of Cologne, Germany, said to German soldiers:
“God is with us in this fight for righteousness . . . We command you in the name of God, to fight to the last drop of your blood for the honor and glory of the country. . . . God knows that we are on the side of righteousness and he will give us the victory.”
(La Dernière Heure, January 7, 1967)You can just feel the love oozing off the pages of history.
My question is a simple one:
Which side was God on?–The Catholic side or the Catholic side? Or was he on neither side?
I guess another question: Does God fight against himself? If a kingdom is divided, will it stand?
CA Is this the thread you said you would comment on the above?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,10:17) Quote “The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” – Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142. What is this? Please provide a source link somewhere online so we can verify this isn't something cooked up by a money grubbing fake who is making a living off of feeding people's conspiracy theories about the CC.
BTW, it's spelled “Ecclesiastical”
What do you mean?You already know what the Catholi Church has done, you already know the factual history of the inquisition and the crusades you don't need a link you need to be honest about what you know about your wayward “Church”If you can be honest about the Molestations, and the indulgences and everything else then maybe we can start hearing what you say is the truth behind all the evil, but you want to pretend that the Catholic Church has been continuously honourable.
Quote What do you mean?You already know what the Catholi Church has done, you already know the factual history of the inquisition and the crusades you don't need a link you need to be honest about what you know about your wayward “Church” If you can be honest about the Molestations, and the indulgences and everything else then maybe we can start hearing what you say is the truth behind all the evil, but you want to pretend that the Catholic Church has been continuously honourable.
That's what I thought. You took that quote from some nut.
HA!
Quote CA Is this the thread you said you would comment on the above? Yes. If you look back, I provided a link for you to check out forthwith.
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 26 2009,10:29) To All…………”You have heard that it has been said , you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: because he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those them which love you what reward have you? do not even the Publicans the same? and if you salute your brethern only, what do you more than others do? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is Perfect. Peace and love to you all……………….gene
Why are you quoting a Catholic book?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,12:27) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 26 2009,10:29) To All…………”You have heard that it has been said , you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: because he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those them which love you what reward have you? do not even the Publicans the same? and if you salute your brethern only, what do you more than others do? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is Perfect. Peace and love to you all……………….gene
Why are you quoting a Catholic book?
Catholic book?Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,12:25) Quote What do you mean?You already know what the Catholi Church has done, you already know the factual history of the inquisition and the crusades you don't need a link you need to be honest about what you know about your wayward “Church” If you can be honest about the Molestations, and the indulgences and everything else then maybe we can start hearing what you say is the truth behind all the evil, but you want to pretend that the Catholic Church has been continuously honourable.
That's what I thought. You took that quote from some nut.
HA!
What quote? wrong person. But you do know the history of the Pope inspired inquisition
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