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Genesis 10:1-11(NIV) reads
Quote The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
“Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
1)Angels arrive at a destination, v.1.
2)The angels ate, v.3.
3)The angels prepare to go to bed, v.4.
4)The angels touch Lot, v.10.What do these four points from this scripture tell us about the bodies of angels?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2011,01:16) Genesis 10:1-11(NIV) reads Quote The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
“Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
1)Angels arrive at a destination, v.1.
2)The angels ate, v.3.
3)The angels prepare to go to bed, v.4.
4)The angels touch Lot, v.10.What do these four points from this scripture tell us about the bodies of angels?
kerwinthose two angels came from Abraham camp;Ge 18:22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.
Ge 18:23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?then from tere wen to Sodom and so met Lot ,but tere is more to that story ,
the question is were did they came from before they met Abraham??
Ge 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2011,18:16) Genesis 10:1-11(NIV) reads Quote The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
“Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
1)Angels arrive at a destination, v.1.
2)The angels ate, v.3.
3)The angels prepare to go to bed, v.4.
4)The angels touch Lot, v.10.What do these four points from this scripture tell us about the bodies of angels?
Is the other thread, “DO SPIRITS HAVE BODIES”, getting to long for you?Georg
Some one, Kerwin, is ignoring explanation, in order to confuscubolulate their mind.
The Scriptures clearly states that the ANGELS were MEN.
This means that the ANGELS were in HUMAN FORM. They manifested bodies – those bodies needed sustenance and so they ate.
just as JESUS asked for and ATE food in the presence of the Disciples in the room AND on the beach.Kerwin, is trying to create an idea that is out of step with reality – by ignoring the parts of Scriptures that don't fit with his ideas.
How do you Throw away the pieces (not just put to one side!) of the great Jigsaw puzzle.
The jigsaw will NEVER be completed!Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,08:17) Some one, Kerwin, is ignoring explanation, in order to confuscubolulate their mind. The Scriptures clearly states that the ANGELS were MEN.
This means that the ANGELS were in HUMAN FORM. They manifested bodies – those bodies needed sustenance and so they ate.
just as JESUS asked for and ATE food in the presence of the Disciples in the room AND on the beach.Kerwin, is trying to create an idea that is out of step with reality – by ignoring the parts of Scriptures that don't fit with his ideas.
How do you Throw away the pieces (not just put to one side!) of the great Jigsaw puzzle.
The jigsaw will NEVER be completed!
istariread again those were the two angels that appeared to Abraham ,so they are not men but angels and they appear
out of nowhere ,so they are not men.
but for the purpose of the will of God they took men like coverpierre
Kerwin! Let me tell you a story. When our 18 year old Granddaughter was 2 years old, they lived in an Apartment on the second Floor. Tiffanr(Granddaughter) stood on a grill located on their balcony and jumped down. Cindy our daughter seen her and started to scream. Neighbors ran outside and seen two
man walk away from Tiffany. They all thought how odd that was. Cindy took Tiffany to the Emergency Room. They checked her out and there was not a scratch on Her. They all called it a miracle. We all think those two man were Angels….So I do believe that Angels who are serving Angels can manifest in a certain situation to help us. If that was the case with Abraham, who knows….But I don't think that Angels stay in Human flesh……not good Angels …
Peac IrenePierre,
It is interesting to hear that the two of the angels had more than one task that was assigned to them by God. I wonder where the third one parted company and how they traveled from one location to the other.
I agree that it would be nice to know what they were doing before meeting Abraham.
It does seem they appeared in his presence though Abram was not paying attention.
George,
The other thread “Do Spirits have bodies” is currently undergoing a flood and that is most likely partly responsible for my decision. Another factor is that this thread is about studying a particular scripture to find out what God is teaching us about the bodies of angels in it. Other factors are most likely involved.
Istari,
So it seems you have concluded that angels change their kind from angel to human at times when they visit humans. I will have to look at that hypothesis based on the Hebrew word used and the context of what you are stating. It will be interesting to do.
Scripture does not say these angels manifested a body. So from what I see that is merely speculation.
One warning, since you appear to be showing contempt for God. That warning is to be careful not to judge others for what you yourself are doing but instead to do what is from love.
Perhaps it is wisest to come humbly to God as a student seeking knowledge instead of as a teacher that knows all things. Then when you encounter words that do not fit one’s world view one will be able to respond to them more humbly than some do on this site.
It is as a student seeking knowledge that I choose to post this and other threads in the ways I have. I have also asked you to back up your conclusions with scripture for the same purpose.
Scripture does not state that either these angels or Jesus ate food to be nourished. That is merely your speculation. I speculate that the angels may have just eaten food because it was set in front of them or just to fit in. Jesus declared that he was eating the food to show he was not immaterial.
Irene,
Thank you for that piece of insight into your personal history that is meant to shed light on why you believe angels manifest into human flesh.
Do you believe they actually change kinds and become humans for a time or that they instead merely appear to be human but are still angels?
I believe the flesh of angels is not the flesh of pre-resurrection humans. I doubt it the flesh of post-resurrection humans either though it does seem similar. I just do not believe human beings become angels after being resurrected.
I am thankful Tiffany, your granddaughter, received no harm for her misadventure and God’s name be glorified for that and all other of his righteous acts.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2011,02:30) Pierre, It is interesting to hear that the two of the angels had more than one task that was assigned to them by God. I wonder where the third one parted company and how they traveled from one location to the other.
I agree that it would be nice to know what they were doing before meeting Abraham.
It does seem they appeared in his presence though Abram was not paying attention.
Kerwintake your time to read the scriptures so you do mis anything,
here is your answer;Ge 18:33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left,
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2011,19:33) George, The other thread “Do Spirits have bodies” is currently undergoing a flood and that is most likely partly responsible for my decision. Another factor is that this thread is about studying a particular scripture to find out what God is teaching us about the bodies of angels in it. Other factors are most likely involved.
I don't think that God is “teaching” us nothing in particular about angels, other than that they are invisible.Georg
Georg,
You mention God teaches us that angels can be invisible but while this angel was invisible to Balaam it was visible to his donkey.
I saw four points in this scripture where I believe God is teaching us something about the body of angels. One thing I find by combining two of those points is that one individual may not observe an angel while another can even though the angel is clearly in both their lines of sight. The one who observed the angel clearly believed the angel was material and therefore sought to avoid it thus preserving the life of the one who was blinded to the presence of the angel. The angel therefore is most likely observed to be material even though it is not visible to one who has the line of sight to see it.
I believe spirit means different things in different contexts. I believe that all ghosts are spirits but not all spirits are ghosts. I hope that makes things clear on what I believe on the issue.
Pierre,
I use the New International Version so your point may not be evident in it. According to the NIV it merely states the Lord left in v.33. From there two of the three angels journeyed to Sodom as they informed Abraham previously in the chapter.
I do see that according to versus 3 to 5 the angels both ate and washed their feet.
References:
Genesis 18:1-33(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
“Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.
“There, in the tent,” he said.
Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”
Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”
Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.”
But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”
When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. Then the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Kerwin,
There is no such thing as a Ghost.
'ghost' is simply another – incorrect – word for Spirit.Also, I am amazed at your childish understanding.
You are no student. You are a demon, or have a demon Spirit in you. This is not a trivial report but avtruthful one.
Your obsession with the Spirit shows you are attempting to bring worship of Angels into the forum as a sport. I urge you to stop now, and I encourage all other posters to help to stop you.
Kerwin, you even make complete basic, fundamental, minus zero aged errors.
Spirits are invisible beings. Yet, you, Kerwin, say, 'God CAN make Sprits invisible'.
Kerwin, how do you say, 'CAN' when the very term 'Spirit' means 'Invisible Being'?And how many times do you need to be shown that Angels can create a flesh and bone body when they come into the physical world. It is to this fleshly body that eating food is made a need.
The Spirit does not eat nor require any kind of material sustainence…being that they are 'Immaterial beings'.Please tell me you now understand and will stop pursuing a very very dangerous misguided assignment.
Kerwin, to desire knowledge of Angels, worse Demon Angels, is to invite them into yourself.
Please, please, Please STOP NOW!!!
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2011,03:58) Pierre, I use the New International Version so your point may not be evident in it. According to the NIV it merely states the Lord left in v.33. From there two of the three angels journeyed to Sodom as they informed Abraham previously in the chapter.
I do see that according to versus 3 to 5 the angels both ate and washed their feet.
References:
Genesis 18:1-33(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
“Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.
“There, in the tent,” he said.
Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”
Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”
Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.”
But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”
When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. Then the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Kerwini always mainly use the NIV
Pierre
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,22:21) Kerwin,
There is no such thing as a Ghost.
'ghost' is simply another word for Spirit.
As much as I hate to agree with JA, he's got this one right.I deleted “incorrect”.
Georg
Istari,
I responded to your words about ghosts in the thread “Do Spirits have bodies” in the traditions forum where it is more appropriate.
You have yet to show any scripture to support your hypothesis that Angels materialize or dematerialize even though I have urged you to make a case based on scripture. There is no way that I will take your word over God’s and scripture does not say that angels materialize or dematerialize. It does state they can be either visible or invisible to whomsoever God desires.
You are the one who worships angels since you believe Jesus is an angel despite scripture stating that he like the rest of humankind was created a little lower than an angel in authority and then raised above them when he was appointed king of all things. That issue is not directly relevant to this thread which is about striving to learn what we can learn about the bodies of angels from a particular scripture.
So according to you human beings who are ministering spirits are invisible. That is sure news to me.
I am doing some research into the word “spirit” and its usage at this time and perhaps I will dig up what you seem so reluctant to share.
By the way where is that scripture to back up you hypothesis that spirits that hypothetically materialize need to eat? It seems you building a house of cards with nothing from scripture to support it.
I looked up words that might have been translated men in Genesis 10:1-11 and could not conclude for sure what was meant in the usage. The English usage seems to suggest 2 males as opposed to two human beings. If you have any evidence to support your conclusion that the 2 angels were also called human beings then please present it.
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